Are miniatures getting "cartoonish"?

[Robbienw]

The Aggressors are a bit more silly, but hey, that's what conversions are for. And I don't think it would need a lot of conversions to look a lot better. They look better than the Centurions (and even they look much better in person than in photos).

 

*snip*

 

And finally, this is a modelling based hobby, and these are multi-part plastic kits. If you don't like how they look then it's easy enough to convert them. I'd understand the upset a bit more if these were low-parts-count monopose metal models, but in this golden age of miniature engineering that's not a problem so much anymore.

Well, pretty much everything GW has ever done looks better than the Centurions so thats not much of a compliment

 

As for converting multi-part kits that i don't like something about, well i will do that to a certain degree definetly (say for example using Mk7 helmets on Intercessor marines).  But i would have to virtually resculpt the Agressors to like them, there is nothing of the design i like except for the flamer part, so there is no way I am going to buy them.  There are many other mulit-part kits out there that i like and want (or want more of) that i will buy instead

Edited September 21, 2017 by Robbienw

[Blindhamster]

 

I think we're just the old guard

the new kids want easy to build easily identifiable heroes and villains, to me they're Saturday morning cartoony, (nothing says that more to me, than the imagery around the new tanks, they could have rolled right out of MASK), to the people born later, they're identifiable as the subjectively over the top DoTA and so on

 

 

Not really, there are plenty of people that have been in the hobby for a long time (or have even come back after being sick of it) that like a lot (not necessarily all) of the new stuff. As I've said before, I got into the hobby when I was 8 or 9, I'm now almost 30. The primaris stuff doesn't look cartoonish to me, a lot of the deathguard stuff does look a bit caricature, but then again, it also looks much more like some of the really old models I saw in cabinets back when I first saw a Games Workshop, it's just GW going back to its roots.

 

ahhh I remember M.A.S.K! Wow, thats a blast from the past.

 

I don't think easy to build is what the "new kids" want. I do think that the easy build stuff is an excellent alternative product and I'm glad GW provided it, it'll help with the younger, new entrants to the hobby when they make their baby steps into the world of model making. I also think it's great that GW also continue to make multi part kits too. My general feeling on legs being part of bodies hasn't changed, I don't see a real issue with it as frankly, people can convert them still if they want, and I prefer the more realistic abdomen poses and detail we've  seen as a result

 

simply no one's going to win this 'discussion', the only guarantees are that there's going to be an opinion of various grading for every frater who doesn't like them, and one for those who believe GW can do no wrong

 

 

How incredibly arrogant of you. So there are many varied ways that people can dislike something, but if they like it, they must be a fanboy that feels GW can do no wrong? obviously.

 

 

Grimdark & 40k is meant to be so called cartoony, a shame many at GW forgot that themselves during the 00s but nice to see a return with a modern twist to the original aesthetic of the setting.

 

This, exactly.

 

The hobby goes through phases, it was very tongue in cheek, and didnt take itself too seriously, the lore existed (but hadn't been expanded on as it has via black library in more recent times). At some point (around the start of 4th ed I think, maybe a bit before) it changed and became the grimmest of dark for many people. People started to brush off the fact that things like nurgle being a jolly god, and nurglings capering about, and focused on the rot and decay side of it and the misery associated with it. Now GW is going back a bit the other way (but hasn't completely forgotten the grim dark element, just doesn't take it quite as seriously as it has).

 

 

 

 

 

As an actual topical answer, I'll say that I think some of the stuff has taken on an aesthetic that could be considered "cartoony", This is specifically true of a fair bit of stuff in the ork range, the helmets on a lot of the newer chaplains feel quite skeletor, Daemons often look pretty cartoonish too, this includes mutations on the new deathguard stuff but also includes things like the plague bearers and some of the really large monsters that are more common in AoS. Guardsmen and space marines are quite comical looking due to hugely oversized hands compared to the rest of their proportions. Hmm, a lot of that stuff is pretty old (clear and obvious exception being some of the Daemon stuff and the primaris chaplains head).

Edited September 21, 2017 by Blindhamster

[Zuvassin]

The new kits do often seem rather busy. I remember a common criticism about plastics for a long time was that they looked rather plain compared to metals, due to the nature of how the molds for metals are bendable and the ones for plastics are not.

 

I'm wondering if the business of GW's modern kits isn't almost a kind of overreaction to that. Like, when I paint and I figure out a new technique or effect, it looks so good that I generally proceed to then ruin it by going overboard.

 

I also think the size-creep affects this too. Even a relatively modest increase in size can make certain details or styles suddenly seem more "cartoony" - it makes me think of Legos vs Duplos.

Edited September 21, 2017 by Zuvassin

[Ascanius]

 

Yes they are - new DG models - are childish caricatures on a CSM.

I think we're just the old guard

 

the new kids want easy to build easily identifiable heroes and villains, to me they're Saturday morning cartoony, (nothing says that more to me, than the imagery around the new tanks, they could have rolled right out of MASK),

 

Senator, I watched MASK, I was a fan of MASK, and believe me, Senator, those tanks are not from MASK.

[Closet Skeleton]

 

I think the miniatures are deliberately being updated to make them look more in keeping with the widespread 21st century geek chic - particularly popular video games like Destiny, Overwatch, League of Legends etc. Yes, the style of these are more cartoony and I think that's coming through into many of the miniatures.

 

There's nothing like Overwatch or LoL in any of the new 40k models. Maybe the Skitarri look a bit Destiny-ish but only a little and all those elements are things that were in 40k first and Destiny is not a particularly cartoon looking game. Destiny is closer to Mass Effect which wasn't cartoony either. Outside of the now very old TF2 its basically just Blizzard spin offs and derivatives that have that have a deliberate move away from realism and Blizzard has always been accused of ripping off GW.

 

I wouldn't necessarily disagree that Overwatch and the new Death Guard are both cartoony but that doesn't mean they're the same any more than Yogi Bear looks like the Simpsons or that Hanna Barbara had the same style as Thomas Nast.

 

The new Escher models make it pretty clear that GW has no desire to update aesthetics to what's currently popular. If Eschers were inspired by modern female video-game character design they'd have the faces of 12 year olds and 'outfits' that look like randomly applied bits of masking tape.

[Lexington]

The hobby goes through phases, it was very tongue in cheek, and didnt take itself too seriously, the lore existed (but hadn't been expanded on as it has via black library in more recent times). At some point (around the start of 4th ed I think, maybe a bit before) it changed and became the grimmest of dark for many people. People started to brush off the fact that things like nurgle being a jolly god, and nurglings capering about, and focused on the rot and decay side of it and the misery associated with it. Now GW is going back a bit the other way (but hasn't completely forgotten the grim dark element, just doesn't take it quite as seriously as it has).

This is, I think, a pretty shallow view of Nurgle, and of 40K's background generally. The humor and irreverence of Nurgle isn't an element applied at random for the living hell of it, it's a part of the overall idea of Nurgle: Despair. Nurgle and his followers are often portrayed as jovial and even familial, but under the surface it's always about relief from the pain and suffering of the world. It's about giving up, giving in, and laughing in the face of your own destruction because you accept that the basic state of the universe is rot. It's about learning to love that lash. This is why Nurgle and Tzeentch are at opposite ends of the Chaotic spectrum - Tzeentch furrows his brow, builds and plots and hopes, but Nurgle just laughs, knowing that everything man builds will eventually topple and die, that decay is the only game in town.

 

You can call them "cartoony" if you like, but those old Plague Marines referenced earlier in the thread embodied that despair pretty well. Their proportions are weird and they're laughing, sure, but their bodies are distended and strange, and that combined effect is off-putting, even with thirty years of evolved aesthetics between them and us. If the new Nurgle miniatures fail in that regard - and I think they do, to some extent - it's because they seem to just juxtapose the surface traits of disease and humor without realizing that they need to work in synthesis. They're not bad, per se, but they're more stylish and "cool" than disturbing, and represent the fairly shallow understanding of 40K as a setting that's possessed (or, at least, allowed to be expressed) by the current Studio and design crew.

Edited September 25, 2017 by Lexington

[Withershadow]

 

The Aggressors are a bit more silly, but hey, that's what conversions are for. And I don't think it would need a lot of conversions to look a lot better. They look better than the Centurions (and even they look much better in person than in photos).

 

*snip*

 

And finally, this is a modelling based hobby, and these are multi-part plastic kits. If you don't like how they look then it's easy enough to convert them. I'd understand the upset a bit more if these were low-parts-count monopose metal models, but in this golden age of miniature engineering that's not a problem so much anymore.

Well, pretty much everything GW has ever done looks better than the Centurions so thats not much of a compliment

I would say Aggressors are way worse than Centurions.  I've seen conversions that made Centurions look alright, and with the advent of the -whatever they are called jump pack Primaris-, there is some common design language there.  They all just need domed helms with visors, and I think they would look cool and cohesive.

[Blindhamster]

 

The hobby goes through phases, it was very tongue in cheek, and didnt take itself too seriously, the lore existed (but hadn't been expanded on as it has via black library in more recent times). At some point (around the start of 4th ed I think, maybe a bit before) it changed and became the grimmest of dark for many people. People started to brush off the fact that things like nurgle being a jolly god, and nurglings capering about, and focused on the rot and decay side of it and the misery associated with it. Now GW is going back a bit the other way (but hasn't completely forgotten the grim dark element, just doesn't take it quite as seriously as it has).

This is, I think, a pretty shallow view of Nurgle, and of 40K's background generally. The humor and irreverence of Nurgle isn't an element applied at random for the living hell of it, it's a part of the overall idea of Nurgle: Despair. Nurgle and his followers are often portrayed as jovial and even familial, but under the surface it's always about relief from the pain and suffering of the world. It's about giving up, giving in, and laughing in the face of your own destruction because you accept that the basic state of the universe is rot. It's about learning to love that lash. This is why Nurgle and Tzeentch are at opposite ends of the Chaotic spectrum - Tzeentch furrows his brow, builds and plots and hopes, but Nurgle just laughs, knowing that everything man builds will eventually topple and die, that decay is the only game in town.

 

You can call them "cartoony" if you like, but those old Plague Marines referenced earlier in the thread embodied that despair pretty well. Their proportions are weird and they're laughing, sure, but their bodies are distended and strange, and that combined effect is off-putting, even with thirty years of evolved aesthetics between them and us. If the new Nurgle miniatures fail in that regard - and I think they do, to some extent - it's because they seem to just juxtapose the surface traits of disease and humor without realizing that they need to work in synthesis. They're not bad, per se, but they're more stylish and "cool" than disturbing, and represent the fairly shallow understanding of 40K as a setting that's possessed (or, at least, allowed to be expressed) by the current Studio and design crew.

 

 

I fail to see where I said it was applied at random. I said Nurgle was a jolly god and nurglings capered about. Both of those factors were true. The dodgy proportions of the old models had as much to do with everything having dodgy portions back then as any real design decisions too.

 

The point I was making (and you ignored) was that Nurgle has always had a comical element to it, for me at least, that has reappeared in the miniatures after years of being effectively missing. And I think it's great. I didn't bother to go into detail on WHY they are jovial, as frankly it doesn't matter so much from a miniature design perspective. Once they've given in they are grinning/happy. The nurglings caper about regardless, The great unlcean ones smile at the suffering all about them (except for the first of them, who is usually sad because he just wants to get back in grandfathers good books).

 

The real issue is that some people (not you, as evidenced from your deeper explanation than I bothered to do) want Nurgle to be all about the suffering and pain and don't want to see that other side at all for whatever reason.

 

GW are getting back to their roots from a design perspective, sure they've modernised things - they have the technology, so good for them. But more and more of the things released over the last few years have subtle and not so subtle nods to classic visuals.

[Antarius]

I know I've said so before, but attempting to frame the discussion in terms of "the old, grizzled and mature elite veteran keepers of the True Grimdark Way" vs "them kidz who'll eat up anything" is, for lack of a better word, childish.

By all means dislike the new models and lore, but at least, like, argue for WHY you don't like instead of just resorting to insulting young people by implying that they like bad things. Invoking your status as a "hobby veteran" doesn't make your stance look anymore mature - rather the opposite, in fact.

 

Also, it's been shown time and time again that lots of hobby "veterans" are perfectly happy with the current direction of the game and models. It's not a question of age (and there's nothing wrong with being "a kid", by the way). Certainly all you young whippersnappers are just as capable of having valid stances on aesthetic questions as me, just because I've been doing this hobby stuff for 25 years and nobody needs to get off anybody's lawn - it's everybody's lawn, so let's stop this divisive distraction of framing our personal tastes as the wisdom of the ages, shall we?

 

I'm sorry to come off as confrontative, but I just don't get why we keep going down this road. We all started this hobby as teenagers and the divide over taste re: new minis clearly has nothing to do with age.

[Domhnall]

I'll start by saying I've not read the whole thread, and this may have been said already, but here's my thoughts.

 

The way I see the newer models (hero models especially), is that they are a bit cartoony in the sense that they have vast amounts of 'stuff' hanging off them. Scrolls, vials, guns, knives, skulls etc. Which would seem a bit excessive to walking about in, never mind fighting with!

 

However, I'm generally happy with this, as it suits the character of the 40k setting. The eldar are generally seen with minimal extras, because it suits their sleek streamlined aesthetic. But Marines have lots of guff, because they're superstitious and they like to keep trophies, scrolls of honour, etc on their person at all times, because reasons!

[Wintermane]

I don't think its so much that they are cartoony as much as it is that the current models are still slick and generic. They should be cause they're baseline. That what the UM line is the baseline. Once you start seeing the other chapters and the "character" gets added to the current models things will change. It's the characters that bring life into the models. Right now we just have generic Captains, Sergeants and etc.

[Fhanados]

I know I've said so before, but attempting to frame the discussion in terms of "the old, grizzled and mature elite veteran keepers of the True Grimdark Way" vs "them kidz who'll eat up anything" is, for lack of a better word, childish.

By all means dislike the new models and lore, but at least, like, argue for WHY you don't like instead of just resorting to insulting young people by implying that they like bad things. Invoking your status as a "hobby veteran" doesn't make your stance look anymore mature - rather the opposite, in fact.

 

 

Couldn't agree more. I've been in the hobby in some form or another for what, almost 20 years now? I've seen various iterations of models come and go. I did not like the 3.5 release Plague Marines, they just seemed so boring to me. The Forgeworld upgrade kits on the other hand are still amazing! I never intended on playing Death Guard at all until the new models were released. I love gribbly, over the top Chaos. To me it's part of their defining feature. It's.... well it's chaotic!

 

As for the cartoony nature of the models, I think that has more to do with the studio paint job than the models themselves. I think that GW has changed the way the studio will paint miniatures in a way that highlights the details in a manner that makes individual components or features of the model really noticeable. A good example of this in my eyes is the new Fire Warriors kit. That white colour scheme highlights the various details of the Fire Warrior models much more than the more subdued ochre and black/grey that they used to be. Even on the standard Chaos Marine line - look at the Havocs in Black Legion colours and compare to the more recent pictures of Chaos Space Marines in Crimson Slaughter colours. I believe it's a very deliberate decision to display the miniatures in this way, they're essentially showing off.

 

I really don't think the new models are cartoonish at all, and those that ARE cartoony (nurgling with a helmet anyone?) seem fitting to me. Except for the Plaguecaster.... it definitely looks like a baby with a spoon.

[Ishagu]

Ironically the most cartoonish aspects of the DG release (cute little Nurglings) are what the vast majority of people like the most.

[Kastor Krieg]

Ironically the most cartoonish aspects of the DG release (cute little Nurglings) are what the vast majority of people like the most.

Exactly! Especially the Nurgling cuteness turned up to 11. I mean, the helmet one is plainly adorkable :D

 

And for anyone thinking "this is a new direction", sure, just go and look at the Nurglings added to the Plaguebearer sprue. I just got them and never knew they were there. Exactly the same style and kind of jovial derpy Nurglings running around. Sprues are dated "GW 2012".

 

JUST LOOK AT THEM :D

 

https://imgur.com/a/h7P2J

[Kastor Krieg]

I know I've said so before, but attempting to frame the discussion in terms of "the old, grizzled and mature elite veteran keepers of the True Grimdark Way" vs "them kidz who'll eat up anything" is, for lack of a better word, childish.

By all means dislike the new models and lore, but at least, like, argue for WHY you don't like instead of just resorting to insulting young people by implying that they like bad things. Invoking your status as a "hobby veteran" doesn't make your stance look anymore mature - rather the opposite, in fact.

 

Also, it's been shown time and time again that lots of hobby "veterans" are perfectly happy with the current direction of the game and models. It's not a question of age (and there's nothing wrong with being "a kid", by the way). Certainly all you young whippersnappers are just as capable of having valid stances on aesthetic questions as me, just because I've been doing this hobby stuff for 25 years and nobody needs to get off anybody's lawn - it's everybody's lawn, so let's stop this divisive distraction of framing our personal tastes as the wisdom of the ages, shall we?

 

I'm sorry to come off as confrontative, but I just don't get why we keep going down this road. We all started this hobby as teenagers and the divide over taste re: new minis clearly has nothing to do with age.

Yeah, it's known as the concept of "badwrongfun", i.e. "you're having fun the wrong way - not my way", which means the difference between our styles of fun is the crux of your innate failure as hobbyist / nerd / whatever "and you should feel bad about it".

 

It's such an immature, divisive and passive aggressive stance, yuck.

[MaliGn]

I've been following this thread with a hint of amusement, primarily because towards the beginning there was a lot of praise for the classic design work by Jes Godwin and the insistence that the current stuff bears little relation to it despite the fact that not only does Jes still work in a senior role within the design team (as does John Blanche - whose name also gets bandied about in these kinds of discussion) but that some of these models look like Jes's concept sketches in 3d more than anything else previously produced, even when he was hand-sculpting the models himself. Models like Cawl are dripping in the influences of Blanche in terms of the design, that the 'eavy metal paint jobs are clean and precise and showcase the detail is to be expected really as that is more or less how they always have been. Perhaps the current vibe is because there is presumably a mandatory insistence on using the citadel colour system or whatever they call it when painting the models.

 

Perhaps what would be fair is to suggest that the design language across a range is now so consistent that nothing instantly indicates a model was designed by this designer or the other, that doesn't remove the overall character of the models though, just create consistent ranges that gel well together. If you compare either the death guard or thousand sons to their more recent precursors where add-on parts were married with the generic CSM kits in a way that served a purpose but pales in effect to either their metal forerunners or the current plastic kits that have replaced them.

[Kastor Krieg]

What this comes down to, really, is that what we're getting now is what Jes and Blanche wanted all the time, but were limited by technology (and now 3D sculpt & design, 3D print, new types of plastic moulding, etc, permit them to realize their ideas a lot clearer). And what people seem to miss is the results of them being constrained by the then-technological limits, hand sculpting, etc.

[Blindhamster]

for example, when i spoke with Jes about primaris way back at warhammer fest, he said the old mk7 design was "the best he could do then" but things change and the new primaris range show far more thought, he was really proud of them and referred to them as "the best he can do now", he recognised that some people wouldn't like them, but clearly felt they were a step up. It was talking to him that made me come around to the one unit i wasn't sure of - Inceptors.

[Volt]

for example, when i spoke with Jes about primaris way back at warhammer fest, he said the old mk7 design was "the best he could do then" but things change and the new primaris range show far more thought, he was really proud of them and referred to them as "the best he can do now", he recognised that some people wouldn't like them, but clearly felt they were a step up. It was talking to him that made me come around to the one unit i wasn't sure of - Inceptors.

Why did Jes ever make the switch to MK 7 over MK 6?

[HeritorA]

 

Ironically the most cartoonish aspects of the DG release (cute little Nurglings) are what the vast majority of people like the most.

Exactly! Especially the Nurgling cuteness turned up to 11. I mean, the helmet one is plainly adorkable

 

And for anyone thinking "this is a new direction", sure, just go and look at the Nurglings added to the Plaguebearer sprue. I just got them and never knew they were there. Exactly the same style and kind of jovial derpy Nurglings running around. Sprues are dated "GW 2012".

 

JUST LOOK AT THEM

 

https://imgur.com/a/h7P2J

 

True. But that's the point - daemons are looking scary/funny. Death Guard space marines are looking comical.

It's like W40K was polymorphed into youngling with a PG12  rating.

[Blindhamster]

 

for example, when i spoke with Jes about primaris way back at warhammer fest, he said the old mk7 design was "the best he could do then" but things change and the new primaris range show far more thought, he was really proud of them and referred to them as "the best he can do now", he recognised that some people wouldn't like them, but clearly felt they were a step up. It was talking to him that made me come around to the one unit i wasn't sure of - Inceptors.

Why did Jes ever make the switch to MK 7 over MK 6?

 

He didn't go into detail on that switch (and i didnt ask sorry). I assume it was all part of them firming up the ideas of what factions actually looked like though,