BA and video BatReps - bad luck or 8th Ed hose-over?

[Hillslam]

So as I watched batreps start to accumulate for 8th edition, while I was learning the new ruleset myself, I made sure to find and watch intently any batrep featuring BA.

 

Over time I thought I started to notice a trend. To me, it seemed, well,  Blood Angels LOSE a ton of battles online. 

 

Not wanting to set it aside to confirmation bias, I took it upon myself to start tallying things up. So over the past month I've been hunting down, watching (or skipping to the end) and tallying BA wins and losses - as represented by online battle reports. Straight up 8th edition battles. 

 

I watched the usual big ticket channels:  SS82, Winters SEO, MiniWargaming, Tabletop Tactics, etc etc etc - and as many other channels both big and small that I could find. I began finding and cataloging BA batreps done as one-off custom vids.

 

(I did not include any batrep write-ups or tournament writeups or league standing result tables - just pure video battlereports. And while I did include custom scenarios, I did not include mixed armies. Just so long as they were video taped pure blood angels lists up against whatever)

 

Here's what I ended up with.  I admit this is by no means exhaustive, even remotely complete, or really scientific in any fashion whatsoever. I even didnt really get thru all I found, I sort of more ran out of gas for the whole endeavor after a trend appeared pretty solid.

 

BA Wins:   16

BA Losses:  59

Draws of some sort:  4

 

These are at all different points levels, and a whole smorgasbord of army compositions, and from what I watched, a whole spectrum of player skill - from potato to master crafted uber mathhammer gods.

 

I draw no conclusions from this - though some patterns emerged in the videos which shaped my own thoughts as to why this is happening. Wondered what the community here thinks.

 

Thoughts?

 

---------------

 

EDIT: 10-20-2017   Adding another excellent BA batrep from SS82.  Unfortunately, but not unexpectedly, another loss in the tally. 

Edited October 20, 2017 by Hillslam

[JamesI]

My Blood Angel experience is pretty limited this edition (sorry, I've been focusing on Thousand Sons so far this year).  But I feel like we are not great right now.

[brother_b]

 

 

I draw no conclusions from this - though some patterns emerged in the videos which shaped my own thoughts as to why this is happening. Wondered what the community here thinks.

 

Thoughts?

 

What kind of patterns emerged and what conclusions where you able to draw?

 

This is interesting but doesn't surprise me with what I've seen from my own watching and reading of BA battle reports.

[Hillslam]

Some completely subjective observations from the batreps:

• BA seem in general to have smaller armies. Or when we have more units its all infantry. But they are not elite.
• BA seem unable to field as many vehicles or other big-model heavy hitters.
• BA seem unable to assemble "Deathstar" type units, or have a hard time accumulating alot of dice in a unit. Other armies just seem to roll more dice when shooting/hitting.
• BA seem to have a hard time negating damage. PA yes, absorbing or soaking, yes. But negating, nope. Other armies seem to have more ways to make damage not get thru, disappear or evaporate. BA are low on the trickery scale.
• BA characters are really weak - with few exceptions when it came time for toe-on-toe named-char matchups, the BA char usually ended up on their backs.
• BA's vaunted melee fluff never seems to bear out on the table. Either they never make it into combat, or when they do they get marshmellowed out or pillowed or tarpitted. Or just plan given a beatdown in the punching subgame.

Again, these observations are what seemed to bubble up from just the batreps. I've done exactly zero mathhammer on any of the above.

Edited September 2, 2017 by Hillslam

[Indefragable]

So as I watched batreps start to accumulate for 8th edition, while I was learning the new ruleset myself, I made sure to find and watch intently any batrep featuring BA.

 

Over time I thought I started to notice a trend. To me, it seemed, well, Blood Angels LOSE a ton of battles online.

 

Not wanting to set it aside to confirmation bias, I took it upon myself to start tallying things up. So over the past month I've been hunting down, watching (or skipping to the end) and tallying BA wins and losses - as represented by online battle reports. Straight up 8th edition battles.

 

I watched the usual big ticket channels: SS82, Winters SEO, MiniWargaming, Tabletop Tactics, etc etc etc - and as many other channels both big and small that I could find. I began finding and cataloging BA batreps done as one-off custom vids.

 

(I did not include any batrep write-ups or tournament writeups or league standing result tables - just pure video battlereports. And while I did include custom scenarios, I did not include mixed armies. Just so long as they were video taped pure blood angels lists up against whatever)

 

Here's what I ended up with. I admit this is by no means exhaustive, even remotely complete, or really scientific in any fashion whatsoever. I even didnt really get thru all I found, I sort of more ran out of gas for the whole endeavor after a trend appeared pretty solid.

 

BA Wins: 15

BA Losses: 57

Draws of some sort: 4

 

These are at all different points levels, and a whole smorgasbord of army compositions, and from what I watched, a whole spectrum of player skill - from potato to master crafted uber mathhammer gods.

 

I draw no conclusions from this - though some patterns emerged in the videos which shaped my own thoughts as to why this is happening. Wondered what the community here thinks.

 

Thoughts?

Great work, Hiilslam!

 

I told myself that I would trust in the science of your observations, and try to remove my own confirmation bias. But I couldn't shake the feeling that I knew what the results would be.

 

There are many, many, many things I can think of and have been trying to catalog a lot of the reasons myself. A couple off the top of my head:

 

-BA are a unique force. We aren't just "the stealthy ones" or such. As such, evidenced by other threads, defining what we are on the TT has been tricky

 

-8th edition has not been kind to us. Several key things that were our edges have been made universal: reliable reserves, fast vehicles, striking first when charging, etc... and we have no other edge to replace those now universal abilities. Compare to others who have had relatively proportional transitions to 8th (Grey Hunters are still Tacticals+, even if the exact rules have changed; DW Knights are still Fearless tanks, etc...). Dante is the poster child for this effect

 

-our special units, especially now in 8th, don't make up for the capability gaps we have due to not having all the same toys as Codex: SM. It is not necessary to have a unit such as Assualt Centurions if we have units that can replicate their capabilities. But therein lies the problem. And I'd say Assault Cents are the least of our worries

 

-reliance on too many special characters. Compare ours to Asmodai from the DA who can do the job of 3x of our characters (he gives re-rolls To Hit in combat, +1A, and -1Ld to enemies) or Arjac Rockfist for the SW (+1A, re-roll 1's To Wound) who does slightly less, but is a perfect compliment to another character you are almost guaranteee to take (Logan Grinmar, re-roll To Hit and ignore Morale).

 

--....the mechanics of the game hit us especially hard, we need so many special characters, yet in doing our job (getting into combat) it can be ridiculously easy to charge out of buff range of those characters. On a personal note, this has been the one part of the game I have tried to crack and has been extremely frustrating.

 

-lack of invulnerable saves. In an addition where it's incredibly easy to fry units off the board with AP-1, 2, or 3 shooting, our units simply don't have the resiliency or numbers to compete. Compare to SW that can take Storm shields in half their units. Ravenwing, while getting a net nerf due to losing their re-rollable 3+ cover save, have at least adapted to 8th by having a 5++ in most situations. Having a psychic power that gives a 4++ simply does not cut it: 1. We can barely afford the luxury of a lobby when we already need other characters 2. It's still a risk since you have to successfully cast it (Emprah forbid you face someone who can really deny powers!) 3. It's a 4++....4. ....compared to a 3++ most other units get. 5. And it's typically 5pts/SS, so 25pts a unit on avg. compare that to a 107pt Librarian

 

-as if all of the above wasn't enough, the points we pay for our units and gear is disproportionately high. Just look at a Furioso or D.C. dread compared to an Ironclad

 

-and finally, something that can't be ignored: we were not in a good place in 7th. So it's not even a matter of things getting lost in translation. There is a clear lack of inspiration, creativity, synergy, and passion.

[Aothaine]

I agree with a lot of the points made here. I think the main issue is that space marines in general have been hit really hard in the assault area. We don't really have a unit now that just destroys things in combat like Genestealers, we just can't put out the number of attacks. GW has turned space marines of all varieties into a more elite force. We need to focus on shooting and combat at around 70/30 imho. Our characters are not beasts in combat like CSM, Tyranids, Genestealer Cults etc.. I feel like we are more focused on amplifiers to turn our limited shots/attacks/saves into something that can compete.

 

Now, we do have a really good melee unit. Yes. It is Death Company. Only they need to focus on infantry now. Give them bolt pistols and chainswords. It is by far the best load out from them. Also, according to some of the interpretations of how chain weapons work in the CSM dex, chainswords now just grant an additional attack with the chainsword whether or not you invest any of your main attacks into it. Still waiting on clarification from GW on that. But if they don't then Abbadon is not nearly as scary anymore.

 

I have decided to focus more on short-range fire with Librarian, Priest and Dreadnought support.

 

EDIT: Boltguns and Chainswords for Death Company

Edited September 14, 2017 by Aothaine

[SnorriSnorrison]

I can agree to many points made by Hillslam and Indefragable. However, we must take the current situation as a temporary one until we actually get a codex.

 

 

In 5th, GW went totally over the top and made us Marines +1 and a bazillion. Nobody wanted to play Marines when they could play Blood Angels. The power creep in this company usually produces unbalanced codizes and it's been a major misunderstanding in the gaming community since the dawn of time. This game is not meant to be played competitively, since GW didn't design it towards that. Their balancing goes little beyond "yeah man so you totally thrashed me with that DC list, we're gonna take some thunder out of it, right now".

 

 

That said, the current issues are about designing the units that we have and pricing them appropriately, since there's still oversights and unbalanced unit entries that create units which aren't even taken at all in favour of others. Tacticals have gotten the nerf bat, since their role is played by Scouts much cheaper and not necessarily worse. This redundancy in unit entries is something they need to work at.

On the other hand, Veteran Assault Squads are now finally cheap enough to use. 7 of them with JP, 5 hammers and shields with 2 chainsword dudes as ablative wounds clock in at 257 points, which is better than I think to remember. Also, Whirlwinds are seeing a comeback, which is nice.

 

Overall, combat in this edition is...weird. Shooting is again more favourable, but since you can charge after deepstriking now, it helps to break castled non-fly armies much better.

 

 

I think to actually make statements about our powerlevel, we need to wait for the full codex and see. Apparently GW have started to listen to their community again which might be a start in the right direction - a path they abandoned a long time ago.

 

 

Snorri

[Indefragable]

Snorri:

 

I think the point is to get this sort of feedback into GW's hands before the Codex drops. Or even before the Chapter Approved drops

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

Snorri:

 

I think the point is to get this sort of feedback into GW's hands before the Codex drops. Or even before the Chapter Approved drops

It's a good point, though we may already be too late. GW definitely isn't watching batreps and making a tally, they're leaning on FLG and ITC statistics for 'competitive' balance - which makes all those cherry picked "BA" lists that much more offensive. Fortunately they're also taking customer feedback, but it's hard to argue with raw data like ITC.

[Aothaine]

Just want to point out I have a post with a living doc that I am updating as much as possible that I have shared with GW's facebook page. 

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/335981-ba-a-gathering-of-suggestions/

[Djangomatic82]

Snorri:

 

I think the point is to get this sort of feedback into GW's hands before the Codex drops. Or even before the Chapter Approved drops

I agree with you on this point. Once the the codex's are out, i doubt any radical changes would be made.

the question is how do we get this feed back to GW. Are forum posts here or other places known to be referenced by GW? Maybe a letter writing campaign. we could come up with a list of concerns and suggestions as to the direction we feel need to be taken in order to rectify them.

 

Edit: Just saw Aeothaines post.  

Edited September 2, 2017 by Djangomatic82

[brother_b]

So instead of saying what isn't working for us, let's find out what is working. 

 

Do we know what the dominant lists are for tournaments? To me it looks like weird spam lists or character lists. 

 

What is working for Space Wolves and Dark Angels? Seems to me they just have more consolidated character abilities, and better access to invuln saves (per the post up top).

 

What is working for new Codex Space Marines? It seems RG is a big part of Codex marine success, along with the stratagems. I know they get access to some stuff we don't, but is that what's really going on? Also, it seems like a big part of space marine success is being tied in with the new primaris marines. I don't know how good they are as I don't use them. It seems from forum/video information that the primaris marines aren't as bad ass as they're supposed to be (kinda like marines in general).

 

What works for everybody else? Shooting? Horde? Smite spam? That's hard for us to achieve as our special units are CC oriented, we are too expensive to make a horde, and our librarians are too expensive for smite spam.

 

Again, what are we lacking that other armies have (excluding the codex of course)?

 

[SnorriSnorrison]

Snorri:

 

I think the point is to get this sort of feedback into GW's hands before the Codex drops. Or even before the Chapter Approved drops

True. If GW will listen is a different story alltogether, though - worth a try nontheless.

[Julius Firefocht]

So instead of saying what isn't working for us, let's find out what is working. 

 

Do we know what the dominant lists are for tournaments? To me it looks like weird spam lists or character lists. 

 

What is working for Space Wolves and Dark Angels? Seems to me they just have more consolidated character abilities, and better access to invuln saves (per the post up top).

 

What is working for new Codex Space Marines? It seems RG is a big part of Codex marine success, along with the stratagems. I know they get access to some stuff we don't, but is that what's really going on? Also, it seems like a big part of space marine success is being tied in with the new primaris marines. I don't know how good they are as I don't use them. It seems from forum/video information that the primaris marines aren't as bad ass as they're supposed to be (kinda like marines in general).

 

What works for everybody else? Shooting? Horde? Smite spam? That's hard for us to achieve as our special units are CC oriented, we are too expensive to make a horde, and our librarians are too expensive for smite spam.

 

Again, what are we lacking that other armies have (excluding the codex of course)?

 

What are we lacking? IMO we are lacking a clear path to victory. What do I mean by that?

 

Call it a cheapshot or an "I WIN" button, but you might have noticed that most 8th Ed armies tend to have a very obvious way to win in this edition. Here are some common combos, for example:

 

~~~~~

 

Dark Angels: Azrael and a Landspeeder Darkshroud surrounded by Las-Preds and Marine gunline. Everyone buffed by rerolls to hit, everyone has a 4+ invul save and opponents suffer a +1 modifier to hit them with shooting attacks. 

 

Chaos Space Marines: Too many to list. The most common is the Terminator bomb, where 5+ Chaos Terminators all equipped with Combi-Plasma and a Terminator Lord and Sorcerer deepstrike in on Turn 1, 9" away from the targeted unit that needs to die. Sorcerer casts Prescience on the Terminators, and they overcharge their Combi-Plasmas to let fly with rapid-fired S8 AP-3 D2 shots, with a +1 modifier to hit. The Sorcerer can also cast Warptime to move the Termies after deepstriking and practically guarantee a first turn charge.

 

Space Marines: Too many to list. But the simplest is to castle up within 6" of Roboute Guilliman with shooty units and tanks, kill everything in front of your army with reroll to hit and reroll to wound. RG is a character that has 9 wounds so he cannot be shot at when he is surrounded.

 

Tau: Take Supreme Command Detachment, field nothing but Commanders in Crisis Suits with guns of your choice, abuse the rule where characters with 9 wounds or less cannot be shot unless they are the closest model. Enjoy your invisible Crisis Suits.

 

Eldar: Wave Serpent spam. Case closed.

 

~~~~~

 

These are just some of the more common builds. These strategies are not easy to counter because they make use of core game mechanics such as Turn 1 deepstrikes and character shooting immunity, and the units required to perform them are usually shooting and out of harms' way. The units themselves usually bring great value to the player as force multipliers or brutal beatsticks.

 

Here are the Blood Angel equivalents of the so-called "I WIN" button:

 

~~~~~

 

- Drop multiple Death Company Marines with Lemartes, and attempt a Turn 1 charge with a 48% chance of success after rerolls. After you succeed, the opponent unit falls back and his entire army massacre your Death Company by massed shooting.

 

- The Red Tide. Field hordes of Assault Marines, Vet Assault Marines and Death Company with jumppacks, supported by vehicles. Given the amount of firepower available out there now... well, good luck crossing the board to get into charging distance.

 

- Dante with Stormravens. (No longer viable after the recent FAQ, and in any case Space Marines can easily replicate the same idea by using 3 CPs to upgrade their Jumppack Captain to Chapter Master for the same reroll to hit.)

 

- Mechanized tank and Dread list using Baal Preds and Furioso Dreads, which Space Marines does better anyway with Sgt Cronus and Guilliman. Also, Ironclad Dreads for Space Marines.

 

~~~~~

 

...That's it. When your best party trick can be nullified by the opponent making use of a core game mechanic to fall back, and whatever else you have can be done by other armies more cheaply and more effectively, you have to be a true believer to not buy Guilliman and play BA as red Ultramarines.

 

And you know what is scary? I am not sure our upcoming Codex will solve our problems. Our issues are too deep, too embedded in the core game mechanics of 8th Ed. Shooting is much more potent than assault in 8th Ed, this is a truth we must acknowledge. In other for us to overturn this fundamental design quirk and allow our assaults to match shooting in lethality, the game designers will have to make something that will allow us to gain overwhelming advantage in the charging and assault phase.

 

If that comes to pass, people will start wondering why they should not play Ultramarines as Blue Blood Angels, and the cycle begins anew.

 

I too hope that we will get a strong yet balanced 8th Ed codex, but as they say... the greater the hope, the deeper the disappointment.

[Aothaine]

Things seem to be a bit salty. I can understand where people are having issues but you will continue to have those issues until you realize that every unit in our army has a place now.

 

We need to change our tactics and adapt to the new rules. We can't just rush the enemy willy nilly. Dropping in half your army to attempt to assault on turn one against your opponent's full army is foolish. Assault works differently now. 

 

I don't have all the answers. But I know we are far better off than what the batreps show right now. 

 

Please don't think that I am dismissing your concerns. I have concerns myself. But we are and will be fine.

[brother_b]

Thanks Julius, great insight, and more than I was aware. That's exactly what I was wondering about. I reviewed both SW and DA and was surprised at how nice some of their units are. Especially the flyer that drops bombs for the DA. That looks wicked.

 

I'll just keep painting away, hopefully come up with a list that'll work.

[Julius Firefocht]

Things seem to be a bit salty. I can understand where people are having issues but you will continue to have those issues until you realize that every unit in our army has a place now.

 

We need to change our tactics and adapt to the new rules. We can't just rush the enemy willy nilly. Dropping in half your army to attempt to assault on turn one against your opponent's full army is foolish. Assault works differently now. 

 

I don't have all the answers. But I know we are far better off than what the batreps show right now. 

 

Please don't think that I am dismissing your concerns. I have concerns myself. But we are and will be fine.

 

With due respect, Brother, I have adapted and tried many tactics for Blood Angels. Practically all roads lead back to a shooty army with a countercharge element. Here is how such a list would look like at 2K points:

 

~~~~~

 

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Blood Angels) [105 PL, 2000pts] ++

 

+ HQ +

 

Commander Dante [11 PL, 215pts]

 

Primaris Lieutenants [4 PL, 74pts]

. Primaris Lieutenant: Master-crafted auto bolt rifle

 

+ Elites +

 

Death Company [18 PL, 242pts]

. Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer

. Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer

. Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer

. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol, Power sword

. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol, Power sword

. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol, Power sword

. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword

. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword

. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword

. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Baal Predator [8 PL, 164pts]: Storm bolter, Twin assault cannon

. Two heavy bolters: 2x Heavy bolter

 

Baal Predator [8 PL, 164pts]: Storm bolter, Twin assault cannon

. Two heavy bolters: 2x Heavy bolter

 

Land Raider Crusader [19 PL, 316pts]: 2x Hurricane bolter, Multi-melta, Storm bolter, Twin assault cannon

 

Predator [9 PL, 202pts]: Twin lascannon

. Two lascannons: 2x Lascannon

 

Predator [9 PL, 202pts]: Twin lascannon

. Two lascannons: 2x Lascannon

 

Predator [9 PL, 202pts]: Twin lascannon

. Two lascannons: 2x Lascannon

 

+ Dedicated Transport +

 

Razorback [5 PL, 117pts]: Storm bolter, Twin lascannon

 

Razorback [5 PL, 102pts]: Storm bolter, Twin assault cannon

 

++ Total: [105 PL, 2000pts] ++

 

Created with BattleScribe

 

~~~~~

 

Strong anti-tank with no less than 14 Lascannon shots per turn, strong anti-horde with 48 Assault Cannons shots, 12 heavy bolter shots and 24+ bolter shots in rapid-fire range. All backed up by Dante providing rerolls to hit and the Primaris Lieutenant providing rerolls to wound on 1s.

 

I believe all can agree that this is a strong list capable of holding its own in most tournaments.

 

Now, let's take a look at what an Ultramarine version of this list would play like:

 

~~~~~

 

 

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [81 PL, 1639pts] ++

 

+ HQ +

 

Sergeant Chronus [18 PL, 322pts]

. Land Raider Crusader: 2x Hurricane bolter, Twin assault cannon

 

+ Elites +

 

Terminator Assault Squad [12 PL, 251pts]: Teleport Homer

. Terminator Sergeant: Lightning Claw (Pair)

. 4x Terminator w/THSS: 4x Storm shield, 4x Thunder hammer

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Predator [9 PL, 190pts]: Twin lascannon, Two Lascannons

 

Predator [9 PL, 190pts]: Twin lascannon, Two Lascannons

 

Predator [9 PL, 190pts]: Twin lascannon, Two Lascannons

 

Predator [9 PL, 190pts]: Twin lascannon, Two Lascannons

 

+ Dedicated Transport +

 

Razorback [5 PL, 102pts]: Storm bolter, Twin assault cannon

 

Razorback [5 PL, 102pts]: Storm bolter, Twin assault cannon

 

Razorback [5 PL, 102pts]: Storm bolter, Twin assault cannon

 

++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Imperium - Space Marines) [18 PL, 360pts] ++

 

+ Lord of War +

 

Roboute Guilliman [18 PL, 360pts]

 

++ Total: [99 PL, 1999pts] ++

 

Created with BattleScribe

 

~~~~~

 

16 Lascannon shots, 48 Assault Cannons shots, 24+ bolter shots at short range. All rerolling to hit and to wound thanks to Guilliman, thus vastly multiplying the actual amount of firepower generated. The Land Raider Crusader hits on 2+ thanks to Chronus, and anything that deepstrikes in will eat that vast amount of firepower before being slaughtered by Guilliman and the Assault Terminators.

 

Feel free to drop one vehicle to get Space Marines Scouts and prevent deepstrike bombs on your tanks.

 

To add insult to injury, the Ultramarine Las-Pred is 10 points cheaper than ours. I saved 40 points in the UM list compared to the BA list while generating a lot more firepower thanks to the rerolls.

 

Make any BA army list and Codex Space Marines will outdo it while being cheaper in cost.

 

To conclude? Yes, I know every unit in our army has a place. But so does every other codex.

 

I do agree that in a casual environment, we are fine, we can get by with almost anything we want to field. But so does every other army out there.

 

In a competitive environment where advantage generators like Guilliman exist and the Ultramarine army needs to do little more than standing still and throwing obscene firepower down the board turn after turn while our BA boys pay in blood to get into assault range?

 

And if we don't play the assault game and play the shooty game only to be outshot by the very same Ultramarine army?

 

I await our upcoming Codex with bated breath lol.

 

EDIT: I forgot that Ultramarines have a Killshot strategem that adds 1 to wound rolls and to wounds generated by the Predators. And Guilliman adds 3 CP just by being there, while providing a 1/3 chance to refund any CP that you used. Truly disgusting. 

Edited September 3, 2017 by Julius Firefocht

[SM1981]

I would agree with most of the above, but I do think there is a fix, and the fix is either a point reduction in the characters unit cost to better represent their lack of punch vs other chapters characters, or an up grade in the punch they offer to make the units worth their cost.

 

Oh and with regards to our unique win button, the option you missed is to spam storm raven's carrying libby dreads. Use them for smite (mortal wounds negate any invulnerable bubbles your opponent creates), and shield of sanguinius generates your own invulnerable wall. The storm ravens are super point efficient for the fire power they put out. All paired with Dante's reroll's makes this super hard.

 

Getting first turn is definitely a big benefit.

 

It's not as powerful as some of our rivals options, but it does really hurt.

Edited September 3, 2017 by SM1981

[Indefragable]

I would agree with most of the above, but I do think there is a fix, and the fix is either a point reduction in the characters unit cost to better represent their lack of punch vs other chapters characters, or an up grade in the punch they offer to make the units worth their cost.

 

Oh and with regards to our unique win button, the option you missed is to spam storm raven's carrying libby dreads. Use them for smite (mortal wounds negate any invulnerable bubbles your opponent creates), and shield of sanguinius generates your own invulnerable wall. The storm ravens are super point efficient for the fire power they put out. All paired with Dante's reroll's makes this super hard.

 

Getting first turn is definitely a big benefit.

 

It's not as powerful as some of our rivals options, but it does really hurt.

That list is effective and one of the "best" we have, but easily counterable. The -1 To Hit on Flyers is not nearly as protective as it seems on paper, especially with the sheer volume of dakka most decent lists can produce. And with so many points wrapped in a few units, you remove the options for the enemy to shoot at, so he can glance things down with bolters even. Statistically likely? No. Staistically possible? Yes. And with no other options to shoot at its "free" for him to try.

 

Secondly, unless you want to drop the SR's into Hover, they will fly out of buffing range quite quickly. A problem that can be mitigated, but something a lot of people seem to forget (not saying you did).

 

Not being antagonistic, just trying to round out how many of our "best" options are not always what they seem.

[Zeller]

Our I win button should be fast rhinos and razorbacks full of angry red men assaulting out of their tanks turn 1 with the support of their fast predators and vindicators. In your face and super aggressive. Instead these solutions above sound like Imperial Fist remedies.

[brother_b]

Our I win button should be fast rhinos and razorbacks full of angry red men assaulting out of their tanks turn 1 with the support of their fast predators and vindicators. In your face and super aggressive. Instead these solutions above sound like Imperial Fist remedies.

 

I like your style. It's more like 8th Edition remedies though, not just IFs... =/

 

Hopefully the codex will change that.

[Xenith]

Snorri:

 

I think the point is to get this sort of feedback into GW's hands before the Codex drops. Or even before the Chapter Approved drops

 

For what it's worth, my belief is that GW produced the Indexes then sent them to playtesters (FLG), who then gave feedback which went into codex writing. 

 

As such, the codexes are already written and finalised, and we can only hope FLG picked up on stuff.

 

Either way, I think GW has seen the effect that better rules means. Tyranids have had certain units consistently been sold out online since the 8th leaks dropped, and we have certainly had many new or returning BA players starting up armies in the last few months.

 

If they notice an army is selling poorly, I think they'll bump the rules.

Edited September 4, 2017 by Xenith

[Palwatch]

Ive had a fairly decent win record in 8th, beating people I have never been able to beat in 7th. I dont think anyone is out to get us. Obviously not having a codex leaves us a little behind right now, but I havnt struggled too much against the codex chapters.

 

Ive had to adjust how I think BA sghould work, but Im still able to soundly beat people with a mix of tactics and BA fluff

[pandion40]

Our I win button should be fast rhinos and razorbacks full of angry red men assaulting out of their tanks turn 1 with the support of their fast predators and vindicators. In your face and super aggressive. Instead these solutions above sound like Imperial Fist remedies.

As a jump pack fanatic oh god please no!!

 

To be clear I don't mind it being a component but I hate the idea of that being our I win button. I've never been able to bring myself to give up jump packs in favour of transports on any unit, no matter how much more efficient it is.

 

 

I'd be in favour of jump packs for everyone, even if it isn't the most efficient path, tacticals, devastators even dreadnoughts.

 

I know I have a problem.

 

I've always been a fan of the Angels with wings dipped in blood image for Blood Angels. Bloodthirsty madmen soaring through the sky invokes that image, Bloodthirsty madmen locked in a metal box not so much.

 

But I know there's Blood Angel fans out there who are not fans of the whole jump pack/flying side of our lore, as incomprehensible as they are to me. So I'd like both paths to be equally viable, but I expect one way will be better, it always is.

[TauFish]

I commend you on your plans/ideas here.

 

 

It is really good to see some players give some sensible and honest feedback. It is a lot better than just always hearing about power lists from the auto win guys. Or the pros on the various streaming sites.

 

 

 

I would like to get a similar movement going over in the Tau space, as I think everyone agrees that they really got nerfed in this edition.

 

Where BA are known for assault, Tau are (or were!!) known for their overwhelming firepower.

 

 

 

Apart from your discussion here, can you let me know what other steps you are taking to get BA corrected, as I might try something similar for Tau and see if I can get Tau back to where they should be as well.

 

 

 

 

 

Aothaine:

 

Really like the idea of the living document with suggestions