BA and video BatReps - bad luck or 8th Ed hose-over?

[Palwatch]

Living doc a very good idea. Good to get some other input from factions that have also had some issues., Tau being a fine example

[TauFish]

Living doc a very good idea. Good to get some other input from factions that have also had some issues., Tau being a fine example

Hi Pal (cool Name!)

 

 

 

Thanks for the positive response to my post, I often worry that people always just think:

 

 

 

‘On No, here are the hard-done-by Tau guys complaining about not winning games again’

 

 

 

I don’t want to go into massive detail on the Tau here (it is a BA group!), but it is funny you mention the BatReps, apart from one recent BatRep which was Tau v Tau, I have yet to see a Tau faction win a game.

 

 

 

I know there is a guy in our group that is absolutely mad for BA. He has said alright that the new assault mechanics are inhibiting his ability to win games. I will let him know about this thread as I am sure he would also want to let GW know about his concerns.

 

 

 

In saying that, he has actually managed to win practically all his games in 8th with his BA (not sure if that is just because he is that good, or we are that bad!)

[Palwatch]

lol - can you get me his number, Id like to talk tactics?

 

Have you thought about swiching armies? As nerfing goes Tau really took a hit, Ive yet to play anyone using tau that uses them well. I dont know if its because the army sucks or if the guy I play is just a cretin. Im sure its somewhere in the middle

[smokinbones]

Our I win button should be fast rhinos and razorbacks full of angry red men assaulting out of their tanks turn 1 with the support of their fast predators and vindicators. In your face and super aggressive. Instead these solutions above sound like Imperial Fist remedies.

 

Do you not think the idea of having a "win button" is just another way of saying I want to break the game in my favour?

 

There shouldn't just be one go to thing that automatically wins the game for you. Spamming and "win buttons" is what strangled the joy out of 7th.

 

Surely the game should be about taking a spectrum of unit types to deal with obstacles you'll face on battlefield. 

 

At the end of the day, it is a strategy game. Maybe you should look at your strategy and stop looking for parity from GW. 

 

The few BA players in my FLGS seem to hold their own. They do for varied lists that can give anyone a run for their money

[TauFish]

lol - can you get me his number, Id like to talk tactics?

 

I checked with him and unfortunately he said he has no time to talk tactics with anyone at moment, said something about not annoying him in work.

 

I have seen him in action (and been on receiving end), if I was to summarise, I would say his army is based on a core of Death Company assault guys and terminators with hammers.

 

With some transports to get them around.

He has a particularly annoying habit of having Dante sit in middle of board with two LR around him, killing everything with rerolls.

I saw him multi assault a 15 man DC squad into 4 guard units, it was amazing to see.

 

But again, not entirely sure if it's that he is that good and we are all that bad that gets him his wins.

 

 

Have you thought about swiching armies? As nerfing goes Tau really took a hit, Ive yet to play anyone using tau that uses them well.

 

Considered switching, thinking of going to a good assault army to completely change things up from Tau, liking the look of Space Wolves ?

 

I dont know if its because the army sucks or if the guy I play is just a cretin. Im sure its somewhere in the middle

I hope he is not on this forum!

[TauFish]

 

 

Our I win button should be fast rhinos and razorbacks full of angry red men assaulting out of their tanks turn 1 with the support of their fast predators and vindicators. In your face and super aggressive. Instead these solutions above sound like Imperial Fist remedies.

Do you not think the idea of having a "win button" is just another way of saying I want to break the game in my favour?

 

There shouldn't just be one go to thing that automatically wins the game for you. Spamming and "win buttons" is what strangled the joy out of 7th.

 

Surely the game should be about taking a spectrum of unit types to deal with obstacles you'll face on battlefield.

 

At the end of the day, it is a strategy game. Maybe you should look at your strategy and stop looking for parity from GW.

 

The few BA players in my FLGS seem to hold their own. They do for varied lists that can give anyone a run for their money

I wouldn’t necessarily call for a ‘win’ button, but if there are problems with elements in the game, then it is fair to call it out.

 

 

 

Assault clearly is a problem for many in the BA community, so it is right that it is identified as an issue.

 

 

 

Personally, what really killed 7th was some of the Eldar nonsense that was going on, or Guard Orders.

 

 

 

If an army is designed as being the ‘best’ at something, then they should be the best, so BA should be kings of assault (and Tau shooting-but that’s a whole other argument).

 

 

 

While there is a guy in our shop doing good things with BA in our shop, he is clearly an exception to what is happening with regular BA players at the moment, and even he thinks the assault is not working right.

[Silverson]

I would be interested to see the lists of blood angels players that are doing very well this edition. In friendly games I do quite decently with blood angels but the second it gets dial'd up to competitive blood angels just become poor codex space marines. the only way I see using them as blood angels is by focusing around our unique units,

 

all our unique hq's

death company

sanguinary guard + anciant

company veterans with jump packs

furioso and death company dread

baal preadator

Tactical squads with heavy flamers

 

hopefully when our codex comes out these units will get improved  

 

in the nova recently I looked on bcp and the highest blood angel army was 140th running flesh tearers and 148th as blood angels 

Edited September 4, 2017 by Silverson

[Eire]

lol - can you get me his number, Id like to talk tactics?

 

Have you thought about swiching armies? As nerfing goes Tau really took a hit, Ive yet to play anyone using tau that uses them well. I dont know if its because the army sucks or if the guy I play is just a cretin. Im sure its somewhere in the middle

 

I've seen Devilfish w/Breacher teams and a Darkstrider do very well. Commander spam is legit. Having said that, yes, Tau took some serious hits and until their codex comes out they are shelved for me. Hell, I've even dug out my Dark Eldar to play test with... while I wait on Tau to get a revamp. Tau BS is atrocious, their suits cost too much for what they do (Broadsides are just awful now), and without knowing what Farsight Enclave bonuses might come, the characters are meh. Now, Dark Eldar is in no better position with their characters (comparing them to my favorite army - Blood Angels - who have amazeball characters imho). And the markerlight changes basically don't matter to half the army until you get 4-5+ MLs on targets.

 

So, bringing it back to Tau, I would suggest that they run; Farsight, Darkstrider, 2x Breacher teams w/2x Devilfish transports (throw the Darkstrider in one to bubble them both when they get really close to take advantage of Str 6 pulse blasters + Darkstrider lowers the toughness of target), Pathfinders w/3 Rail Rifles, 1x Stealth unit, and if you can fit it at 1k Kroot squad bubble wrap (or Kroot Hounds if you want to go really cheap/fast wrap). Another option is Commander spam. Take 4 Commanders with all Fusion blasters, drop in and wipe any 1-2 squads or vehicles you want dead in that turn of shooting. It's incredibly powerful and super cheese, but works. Add in Pathfinders and Kroot Hounds and you're super competitive at 1k. Scaling you can do Hammerheads with Longstrike, ouch, or add a Ghostkeel with your Stealth Suits for an amazing flanking distraction unit. (Stealth with ATS are pretty good for points)

 

I think something to take into account with the lopsided nature of the batreps is that people are 1) getting adjusted to 8th edition, 2) possibly returning after long hiatus (including myself with that bucket), 3) just starting with BA or with SMs in general. Those numbers definitely don't lie, but I think some outlying factors might bring it more into line with a 50/50 split. I guess we'll see post Codex if that shifts. BAs are my absolute favorite army, and have been since 3rd edition (I still have that box!).

[Jolemai]

Guys, you realise we have a Tau sub-forum for this sort of thing? Take it there or to PMs please.

[Eire]

Guys, you realise we have a Tau sub-forum for this sort of thing? Take it there or to PMs please.

 

Yes. Sorry about that.

[Aothaine]

 

 

EDIT: I forgot that Ultramarines have a Killshot strategem that adds 1 to wound rolls and to wounds generated by the Predators. And Guilliman adds 3 CP just by being there, while providing a 1/3 chance to refund any CP that you used. Truly disgusting. 

 

 

I see where you are coming from but you are comparing us to an army that has a primarch and a new codex. We are still on the index and our primarch is dead. Comparing apples to oranges here. Yes the stratagems are amazing. But unless you want to just on the blue train we'd have to build every list without a primarch. Honestly, I look forward to the challenge. 

 

Something else I want to point out here is you tooled out the DC to be really expensive and did not use terminators like the blue list. Gulliman is something no one except ultra marines can do. I've had thoughts of switching to the boys in blue because of it. And they have amazing dice! (I'm one of those weirdos that likes to have everything match) But I really really like heavy flamers and Blood Angels are the only faction besides T'au and maybe Tyranids that lets you field them in heaps! Plus the Flesh Tearers look boss!

 

Anyway, I think if we are going to compare lists we need to make them a little more equal. I also want to point out that Death Company, imho, should always be equipped with bolter+chainsword. Focus them on the infantry and let your lascannons take out the big stuff.

[The Unseen]

Why focus them on infantry in an army that has anti infantry in spades?

Their the best unit to bring power weapons or the still amazing thunder hammer on, as they still get 3 attacks with them on the charge.

They still aren't super great with that loadout, but that's about the only way to make them better than vanguard.

A DC marine with bolter+chainsword gets 6 str4 attacks, 4 of which are buffed by a chaplain or priest.

A Vanguard Vet with double chainsword gets 4 str 4 that can all be buffed by the priest/chaplain, and costs a bit less.

 

However, if you run say Thammers, the vanguard gets 2 hammer swings and a pistol shot, the DC gets 3 hammer swings.

Same with any other pw.

So you finally get more real bang for your points.

 

If you want more bolter shots, take tacticals or stern guard with storm bolters.

That's actual quantity of dakka for the points.

[Indefragable]

What the Unseen said.

 

Plus, if you want jump pack Bolters for kiting, Company Vets are 19pts/ea with jump, bolted, chain sword. DC are 21pts with with the same load out. Company Vets take up an Elites slot as well and are native Ld9 compared to DC's Ld7. How much is the Black Rage worth to you?

[Julius Firefocht]

 

 

 

EDIT: I forgot that Ultramarines have a Killshot strategem that adds 1 to wound rolls and to wounds generated by the Predators. And Guilliman adds 3 CP just by being there, while providing a 1/3 chance to refund any CP that you used. Truly disgusting. 

 

 

I see where you are coming from but you are comparing us to an army that has a primarch and a new codex. We are still on the index and our primarch is dead. Comparing apples to oranges here. Yes the stratagems are amazing. But unless you want to just on the blue train we'd have to build every list without a primarch. Honestly, I look forward to the challenge. 

 

Something else I want to point out here is you tooled out the DC to be really expensive and did not use terminators like the blue list. Gulliman is something no one except ultra marines can do. I've had thoughts of switching to the boys in blue because of it. And they have amazing dice! (I'm one of those weirdos that likes to have everything match) But I really really like heavy flamers and Blood Angels are the only faction besides T'au and maybe Tyranids that lets you field them in heaps! Plus the Flesh Tearers look boss!

 

Anyway, I think if we are going to compare lists we need to make them a little more equal. I also want to point out that Death Company, imho, should always be equipped with bolter+chainsword. Focus them on the infantry and let your lascannons take out the big stuff.

 

 

The DC squad generates 9 T-Hammer attacks, 9 power sword attacks and 16 S4 chainsword attacks on the charge. Compare that to 10 T-Hammer attacks from the blue Assault Termies. The DC squad is cheaper than the Termies too, I would argue that the DC squad provides better value than the blue Assault Termies.

 

As for Guilliman vs having no Guilliman... let me put it this way. Dante and a Primaris Lieutenant will provide nearly the same buff as Guilliman. This is my attempt to build an army that can perform nearly as well as the blue army, yet it still falls short for reasons I have already listed.

 

Lastly, I do not see it as comparing apples to oranges. No matter what, we are playing the same game under the same basic ruleset, fluff such as "having a living Primarch vs having a dead Primarch" should not be a factor in game balance, much less competitive gameplay.

 

Even in the market, people will buy the tastier apple that is somehow still cheaper than the orange lol

[Hillslam]

Update:  SS82 posted a BA vs Necron batrep, with the BA taking... a WIN!

 

It did seem like a scenario set up to give the BA a chance, but a win is a win.

 

Some observations from this one batrep, because clearly SS82 is listening to his subscribers and vid comments:

 

- the BA force was smaller yet not more "elite" showing how they are over-costed  

- the BA force generated fewer to hit dice, and had to roll higher to hit targets and to wound targets 

- the necrons had more wounds to chew thru  (but also had more points to give away in this kill point game)

- the necrons demonstrated more melee hitting power and staying power

- in order to win, the BA had to castle up expensive armor firepower and keep it retreating  

- the necron list had no flyer for some odd reason and never bothered to fire on the stormraven

[Silverson]

Here's another battle report I found just now not sure if you have it in your list of accounted games but it was a really good one to watch.

 

Edit. It only got released an hour ago so very unlikely it's in you list

Edited September 7, 2017 by Silverson

[TauFish]

just an update on my BA friend, was watching him last night play against a very strong (unbeaten) Salamanders list.

 

 

 

I was talking to him beforehand and he was saying he was trying new tactics to get over the issues he is having with combat.

 

 

 

Rather than risk getting into unreliable combat he actually won by hiding 2 DC squads behind a building for the game and picking off models with some Heavy Weapons squads, & razorbacks.

 

 

 

Then ran forward in last turn to grab objectives and won by points.

 

 

 

Apart from a small diversionary attack to tie up a Redemptor Dread, there was no combat in whole game.

 

 

 

I won’t say he was happy with situation, but still got his win.

[Panda_Saurus_Rex]

just an update on my BA friend, was watching him last night play against a very strong (unbeaten) Salamanders list.

 

 

 

I was talking to him beforehand and he was saying he was trying new tactics to get over the issues he is having with combat.

 

 

 

Rather than risk getting into unreliable combat he actually won by hiding 2 DC squads behind a building for the game and picking off models with some Heavy Weapons squads, & razorbacks.

 

 

 

Then ran forward in last turn to grab objectives and won by points.

 

 

 

Apart from a small diversionary attack to tie up a Redemptor Dread, there was no combat in whole game.

 

 

 

I won’t say he was happy with situation, but still got his win.

 

 

I have been doing the exact same thing with my DC. I hide them all game and counter-charge or use them to grab late game objectives. I do, however, have a squad of Clawminators in a Stormraven that I can use to take care of high level threats or mulch infantry. 

[TheHarrower]

Well, judging by the Nova results, I'd say we've been getting the hose over. I knew we would do bad, but second to last? Ugh.  

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

Well, judging by the Nova results, I'd say we've been getting the hose over. I knew we would do bad, but second to last? Ugh.

In both the Invitational and the GT, Blood Angels were at the bottom.

[tychobi]

We are objectively worse than codex marines right now.  Not a single saving grace is in our index list.  Our unique units are overpriced.  We get no free tactics or free relics.  We pay more for the same weapons on the same troops. All in all we should not be surprised by the results of Nova or many other sources showing we are struggling to keep up at the moment.  There is no reason to field Blood Angels from a competitive standpoint.  Sad really.  I am very seriously thinking of calling my army "Blood Dragons" and using Salamander rules in an upcoming tournament.  

 

Nah, Tycho and Mephiston fast rappelling out of a Storm Raven with my Breacher Scouts (Thunder Hammer combat knife sarge, 4 shotgun combat knife scouts 75pts) is gonna be a blast!  For Sanguinius!!!

[Hillslam]

Here's another battle report I found just now not sure if you have it in your list of accounted games but it was a really good one to watch.

 

Edit. It only got released an hour ago so very unlikely it's in you list

 

Thanks - will add.  Another loss in the BA column.  Long game notwithstanding, you could almost see what was going to happen when the IG and BA lists were presented. Which was exactly how it played out.  IG = more wounds, more dice, more firepower. And BA not nearly powerful enough in the assault to make up for the deficit.

[brother_b]

Looking at the standings for the NOVA Open:

 

The bottom 3 with the highest placed player of that army and the "codex" or "index" they used.

 

109th Index: Blood Angels 

148th Index: Thousand Sons 
195th Index: Adeptus Custodes

 

Yeah baby! I know most tournaments are min-maxed but dayum. Oh wells, back to the paint rack...

[Xenith]

 

Well, judging by the Nova results, I'd say we've been getting the hose over. I knew we would do bad, but second to last? Ugh.

In both the Invitational and the GT, Blood Angels were at the bottom.

 

 

Don't forget that these tournament results are self-fulfilling snowball prophecies of doom.

 

The people that are the most competitive take the army that they and the internet thinks is the strongest, leading to more people playing them, and more likely to win. Likewise, fewer less competitive people taking BA armies mean they place lower, and all the internet folks say "I told you so" (as has already happened above), meaning fewer people take BA next tournament, etc.

 

Things go in cycles. As soon as one army starts winning tournies, more players take that army, making that army more likely to win the next tourney.

 

The Nova data analysis is also poor and actually tells you nothing. Average score in a tourney for an army population of 8? Or 4? That could be one guy doing amazingly and 3 guys doing terribly. Do we actually have the positions of each player? Those 4 genestealer cult guys could have all been top 16, while the daemons could have been one winner, and the other 7 in bottom 10%. Averaging the rank of each player would be more useful.

Edited September 8, 2017 by Xenith

[Indefragable]

 

 

Here's another battle report I found just now not sure if you have it in your list of accounted games but it was a really good one to watch.

 

Edit. It only got released an hour ago so very unlikely it's in you list

Thanks - will add. Another loss in the BA column. Long game notwithstanding, you could almost see what was going to happen when the IG and BA lists were presented. Which was exactly how it played out. IG = more wounds, more dice, more firepower. And BA not nearly powerful enough in the assault to make up for the deficit.

Hillslam: check your PM if you see this first.