BA and video BatReps - bad luck or 8th Ed hose-over?

[SM1981]

As a jump pack fanatic oh god please no!!

 

To be clear I don't mind it being a component but I hate the idea of that being our I win button. I've never been able to bring myself to give up jump packs in favour of transports on any unit, no matter how much more efficient it is.

 

 

I'd be in favour of jump packs for everyone, even if it isn't the most efficient path, tacticals, devastators even dreadnoughts.

 

I know I have a problem.

 

I've always been a fan of the Angels with wings dipped in blood image for Blood Angels. Bloodthirsty madmen soaring through the sky invokes that image, Bloodthirsty madmen locked in a metal box not so much.

 

But I know there's Blood Angel fans out there who are not fans of the whole jump pack/flying side of our lore, as incomprehensible as they are to me. So I'd like both paths to be equally viable, but I expect one way will be better, it always is.

Completely on the same page as you here. In my book anything that can take a jump pack should, and anything that can deepstrike should. For me (and I know that this is a subjective statement, and that we are all precious snowflakes with our own equally valid perceptions and opinions...) the Blood Angles are about overwhelming shock and awe and alpha strike's that continue to roll through the enemy line.

 

It's just a shame that we don't have the punch to do that at the moment (or ever!).

[Alcyon]

I've been reading through the codexes and doing a lot of list building and it seems like Blood Angels have two major things going for them: Death Company and Librarian Powers.

 

Now I'd argue Death Company are definitely overcosted slightly as they don't reflect the discounts Vanguards have for JPs, etc. but it's important to highlight their differences. A 6+ FNP can be had by running IH CT so let's discount that.

• Vanguard Veteran - Ld 8, 2 attacks 
• Death Guard - Ld 7, 2 attacks + 1 on the charge

Essentially you are paying either 1pt or 2pts extra for +1 attack depending on whether you take jump packs. This is not a bad deal I don't think. On top of that, BA has some of the best psychic powers available to Space Marines, namely +1 attack and 4+ invuln for only warp charge 6, a 72% chance of success. 

 

As mentioned above, the extra attacks really encourage you to take Thunder Hammers as you pay less points per model for the same attacks. Here's the breakdown. I am not assigning jump packs here as the points savings per model are key, so you should really put them in Stormravens or Rhinos.

• Death Company w/ Thunder Hammers - 37pts per model x 10 = 370pts for 30 attacks on the charge = 12.3pts per TH attack
• Vanguard Veterans w/ TH and free pistol - 36pts per model x 10 = 360pts for 20 attacks = 18pts per TH attack

Don't forget to include the attacks of any buff characters, likely a Librarian (potentially a dread in the Stormraven) and a Chaplain to offset the -1 to hit, maybe with a PF.

• 10x Death Company w/ TH + Librarian + Chaplain = 549 pts for 40 TH attacks + Chaplain & Librarian's efforts --> 13.72 pts per TH attack
• 5x Death Company w/ TH + Librarian + Chaplain = 364 pts for 20 TH attacks + Chaplain & Librarian's efforts --> 18.2 pts per TH attack
• 10x VVs w/ TH + Chaplain = 437 pts for 21 TH attacks + Chaplain's efforts --> 20.8 pts per TH attack

I guess my point is that DC are "overcosted" slightly compared to VVs, but when it comes to Thunder Hammers this is the cheapest and likely most points efficient way to get them for Space Marines, especially with Terminators costing a bunch more for only 1+ wound and a 2+/5++ (not *that* much more survivable). There is no other unit in the new C:SM or the Index that can do this much damage for this low a points cost, and this is a major reason I've been feeling a pull towards Flesh Tearers in this edition.

 

Doing the math for chainswords you can see how DC fall down as their wargear gets weaker, it's much harder to justify their cost.

• 10 DC w/ double chainswords + Librarian - 275 pts for 50 attacks (plus 3 Force Sword hits) = 5.5pts per S4 attack
• 10 VV w/ double chainswords - 160 pts for 40 attacks = 4pts per S4 attack

Knowing this, the real question is how many TH attacks do you need on average to kill a typical target, and how useful are Thunderhammers in general? How do they stack up against some of the tougher units in the game compared to Lascannons or massed bolter fire?

[Indefragable]

I learned on Sunday that in Matched Play you can only cast each non-Smite psychic power once per Turn. To me, that dials BA down even further since we have to rely on a single attempt at 4++ or +1A (which never went off in 5 Turns, btw).

[Pendent]

I learned on Sunday that in Matched Play you can only cast each non-Smite psychic power once per Turn. To me, that dials BA down even further since we have to rely on a single attempt at 4++ or +1A (which never went off in 5 Turns, btw).

 

Those are what, warp charge 5 or 6? If you couldn't roll that on 2d6 for five turns you have some historically bad dice.

 

I've had a ton of success running Mephiston or a Librarian Dread so far (sometimes even both). I like running a core of 20 Intercessors and being able to hide a nasty close combat psyker in the middle of them has been pretty effective. We certainly don't scale well beyond 2 or so psykers, but then again it's not like we were that reliant on them to start with.

[Blindhamster]

last game i played, i tried to case shield of sanguinius every turn, and failed every turn (but did have some spectacular smite rolls to make up for it)

[Alcyon]

Warp charge 6 should be pretty easy statistically; the average of 2d6 is 7, so you're already above average. 72% plus you can use a CP to get it to 86% chance of success. 

 

The reality is the +1 attack is only worthwhile so long as the attacks are expensive points-wise and/or you have a lot of models in a single unit. Death Company gives you those options but the points cost is so high at that point it becomes a real "eggs in one basket" situation. 

 

If you want a ton of weak attacks vs. hordes I think you're better off running Aggressors with a Captain/Dante and/or Lieutenant, and what I'm really questioning whether Space Marines with Thunder Hammers is a good investment at all. I'll hold my breath for the new codex.

[Pendent]

My feeling is that Death Company are way too fragile to spend that many points on thunder hammers, and if you want to clear out hordes you're going to be better off taking Agressors or a Repulsor (or, if you like overkill like I do you will take Agressors in a Repulsor). To be frank, there's no role Death Company can fill that can't be filled better by something in our own index, let alone the marine codex.

[Spagunk]

My feeling is that Death Company are way too fragile to spend that many points on thunder hammers, and if you want to clear out hordes you're going to be better off taking Agressors or a Repulsor (or, if you like overkill like I do you will take Agressors in a Repulsor). To be frank, there's no role Death Company can fill that can't be filled better by something in our own index, let alone the marine codex.

 

Frankly, I feel this is the case too. I am also starting to hear people do the same thing they did in 7th and claiming that BA players should pick different armies; which is very sad.

[Blindhamster]

Ride it out brothers, we will get through it, at least hold on till we see what our codex looks like.

[Pendent]

I'm honestly a lot less unhappy about where we're currently at than a lot of other people we see on here.

 

I think a big part of this is due to the fact that I've really bought into the whole Primaris thing. My lists have always been very codex compliant, generally with large number of tac marines as a core around which the rest of my list was built. I tended to lose a lot in 7th because I'd have all these points allocated to troops that never really ended up doing anything. This has changed for me with the advent of Intercessors into our Index.

 

I have had an incredible amount of success using intercessors as really beefy meatshields who happen to have some pretty solid guns. In my current standard I run two full squads of Intercessors and a 5-man squad of sniper scouts in my troop slots, and generally try to fit in some sort of character like Mephiston to provide buffs or counter charge as the situation demands. This may even shoot up to a full three Intercessor squads once I pick up the models- The scouts have been useful for board control, but the points honestly feel wasted aside from this.

 

They have one of two jobs when I play. Firstly, and most commonly due to the aggressive nature of most of this lists I play against, is that they make an amazing screening unit for my actual killing power. It is actually pretty difficult to deal enough wounds to wipe a full squad out in a single round. I've had them eat charges from Ork Boys and Khorne Beserkers and manage to just barely survive on more than one occasion. Once I've got the bad guys stuck in combat it's generally simple enough to either counter charge or pull my troops back and let the Repulsor/other fire support melt whatever nasty monster was giving them a hard time. Their other job is camping objectives in the center of the table where they're likely to draw a lot of fire. The theme is obviously that they're there to suck up as much firepower as possible before dying.

 

Having that solid infantry core on the table really helps to make the most of our special units. Our psykers do a pretty good job supporting the infantry. Sanguinary Guard held in reserve alongside a captain or the Sanguinor makes for a really potent counter-charge unit that can be placed exactly where we need it, when we need it and even provides some useful buffs for surrounding units. During my next game I really want to try putting a squad of Hellblasters in a Repulsor and driving them up into rapid fire range of something that really needs to die. Once they're disembarked drop the Captain and Sanguinary Guard (armed with plasma pistols) right in front of them. The plasma fire will put out a bunch of damage and then the sanguinary guard have a good chance of being able to finish off the target even if the captain misses his own charge.

 

 

While I've been eyeballing armies like Guard and Tau recently this is more due to the fact that I'd like a change of pace for modeling and painting than any dissatisfaction with our boys in red. Blood Angels will always be my true love in this game and my primary army that I play. We may not be as competitive as some right now but we're far from helpless.

[Blindhamster]

*SNIP*

 

I agree completely, I too have always ran my BA closer to codex as thats the version of BA I grew up with. I also loved Primaris from the moment I saw them and have embraced them wholeheartedly, my experiences of 8th so far have been positive as a result too.

[Alcyon]

Love that comment. Glad to hear Intercessors are working well for people. I love the models and the idea of Troops being more useful.

[tychobi]

Justifying our position in the meta with anecdotal evidence misses the point.  Our Index rules are woefully out of date and do not compete point for point with codex marines.  None of our "special sauce" is points efficient enough to matter metawise. 

 

That being said we can win games and do.  I went 3 and 2 at Attack X in Kamloops B.C. last weekend and had a blast.  I won vs similarly fluffed lists (nurgle demons, Imperial tanks, Orks with less than 100 models) and lost to Gulliman and Scions.  Ork Horde w Gaz won best general.  I know my meta.  Hordes outside of the one ork player were non existent so i brought lascannon.  Lots of lascannon.  Would I have won more with salamander rules?  BIG TIME.  

 

Big takeaways were going first at 2k with decent shooting is vital.  2k points garners lots of guns and I for one think that it makes alpha strike a tad powerful.  Vs primiaris smurfs I lost 600+ points before I could act.  I did the same to other armies.  Makes the game a bit of a forgone conclusion after the seize roll.  More terrain could help  but what tournament has enough terrain to line o sight block every table?  Beta strike can help but is not available to most armies in efficient packages.  My opinion is that 1500 is a better point value to cut out massive alpha swings by limiting things more in general.  

 

I hope for big things from our codex.  I was sad to hear we will be waiting until at least the new year for it.  For now I'm painting scions.  

[The Unseen]

Cutting down to 1500 pts doesn't limit alpha strike at all, they have 500 pts worth of fewer guns tis true, but they have 500 pts less to shoot at. You'd have to drop the points down to low enough that Gman isn't efficient enough because he doesn't have enough friends to be worth it, so 1000 pts or less probably. And that only cuts out shooting lists that rely on Gman, and merely opens the door to hordes reigning supreme because at sub 1k people can't bring enough bullets to kill horde lists, since you also need to bring your own scoring units, and you don't have points for your own scoring units, while also bringing enough anti-infantry firepower to kill 100 orks+their support guys, and enough anti-tank for that :cuss who brings 2 knights at 1k.

 

Alpha strike lists will exist in any meta with a combination of points efficient shooting units (or in very limited cases, efficient and reliable turn 1 assault lists) combined with not enough LoS blocking terrain. Points efficient shooting is all over the place in this edition, so that leaves terrain. 8th edition absolutely requires vastly different terrain than previous editions, and terrain is neither cheap nor easy to produce in large quantities, which leaves tournament organizers in a rough spot. Give it some time and it will (hopefully) be somewhat mitigated. But the archetype itself is heavily entrenched in 40k, in large part because of its IGYG turn system. Priming a knock-out punch that can win you the game before it really begins will always be strong.

[tychobi]

Cutting down to 1500 pts doesn't limit alpha strike at all, they have 500 pts worth of fewer guns tis true, but they have 500 pts less to shoot at. You'd have to drop the points down to low enough that Gman isn't efficient enough because he doesn't have enough friends to be worth it, so 1000 pts or less probably. And that only cuts out shooting lists that rely on Gman, and merely opens the door to hordes reigning supreme because at sub 1k people can't bring enough bullets to kill horde lists, since you also need to bring your own scoring units, and you don't have points for your own scoring units, while also bringing enough anti-infantry firepower to kill 100 orks+their support guys, and enough anti-tank for that who brings 2 knights at 1k.

 

Alpha strike lists will exist in any meta with a combination of points efficient shooting units (or in very limited cases, efficient and reliable turn 1 assault lists) combined with not enough LoS blocking terrain. Points efficient shooting is all over the place in this edition, so that leaves terrain. 8th edition absolutely requires vastly different terrain than previous editions, and terrain is neither cheap nor easy to produce in large quantities, which leaves tournament organizers in a rough spot. Give it some time and it will (hopefully) be somewhat mitigated. But the archetype itself is heavily entrenched in 40k, in large part because of its IGYG turn system. Priming a knock-out punch that can win you the game before it really begins will always be strong.

You are right.  The rules right now really favor polarized lists.  Hordes make your heavy weapons useless, and if you run into knights your anti infantry means next to nothing.  The diluted lists that don't specialize give targets for all the guns and get pwned.  

[Indefragable]

Discuss:

 

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2017/09/22/index-blood-angels-flesh-tearers-tactics/

[Jolemai]

Discuss:

 

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2017/09/22/index-blood-angels-flesh-tearers-tactics/

 

Sorry mate, this was being discussed already in BA Today so I've moved it to it's own thread

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339730-that-flg-baft-article/

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[BLACK BLΠFLY]

So far every codex released for 8th edition is tight so I'm hopefully for some much needed buffs.

[Hillslam]

Updating tally with another Batrep, excellent as always, from SS82.  Unfortunately another loss in the tally for BA in 8th.

 

Codex cannot arrive soon enough. 

 

Not high hopes it will fix the core problem....

[tychobi]

I have high hopes for our new codex.  That said I am not fielding Blood Angels until I have reviewed said codex and found reason within it to not sell/use my models for target practice.  

 

I am really sad that GW has not equalized updated the index entries to at least have a sniff at competitive gaming.  There were promises made and upheld for many other entries.  Blood angels seem to be a forgotten embarrassment to the GW dev team.  "Look at those tasty auras!". . ..   well we have.  They are lacking.  And clunky to play with.  And BORING!  

 

My fix for now is the Sanguine Dragons.  Blood angel models with Salamander chapter tactics. Fluffed as Blood Angels trained in last stand defense doctrine.   Oddly salamander msu scouts and assault marines do great with their inbuilt rerolls. Sorta fixes many of our problems.  Who needs auras eh?