Any Speculation as to why Morty does not have a 2+?

[bozo69pd]

Please, keep Draigo out of the heart of a Morty's thread.

I see what you did there.

[Closet Skeleton]

Can't make one so far better than another as it'll just skew things to one side.

 

That said, 5+++ = better than RR 1's of invuln. Way more resiliency.

 

Invulnerable saves are before damage and Magnus can give himself a 3++ with a spell. Disgustingly Resiliant is only statistically better against bolt guns, its not so great against lascannons or reaper chainswords.

 

and he can be healed via Stratagem/Daemon-Nurgle Magic and probably (assumption here) DG-Magic. He is tough as whatnot. I say balance reasons.

 

The CSM Nurgle stratagem is infantry only so can't heal Mortarion. The Nurgle Daemon discipline can though so even if DG don't get an equivilant you can just summon or ally a herald.

[OnboardG1]

A 2+ makes him about a third more resilient against high strength, low ap weapons like Autocannons, Butcher cannons and the like. I guess GW wanted him to have more vulnerability against the more traditional anti-MC weaponry.

[Plaguecaster]

With the warlord traits he could have revolting resilience for essentially a new 4+ Disgusting Resilence save that would help stop most of the wounds inflicted a on him

[bozo69pd]

Well anyways for how durable he is, I really hope he brings some sort of useful skills to the table. Because otherwise Typhus is slower but better.

[Panzer]

Uhm the 4+/5+/6+ Smite aura, the Toughness debuff aura and the Warlord trait to let units with plague weapons re-roll to-wound rolls isn't enough? Well I'm sure he comes with the usual re-roll 1s to-hit (or even all to-hit) aura as well on top of that. Not to mention that he's most likely a psycher as well.

 

I don't think he needs more stuff than that and whatever anti-horde his Scythe gives him to make him viable to be honest.

With the warlord traits he could have revolting resilience for essentially a new 4+ Disgusting Resilence save that would help stop most of the wounds inflicted a on him

He has Arch-Contaminator tho.

[bozo69pd]

I will buy him for sure, but I just feel like for the points Typhus fits into lists easier. I may be wrong, or perhaps Typhus will get a points nerf. Silly question, can unique characters take artefacts? Like could I put the 2+ armor on Mortarion, or the smite staff artifact on Typhus?

[Commissar K.]

They cant, but really I dont think Thypus is better as Mort, the difference is one is a true Monster and other great support, different roles :).

[bozo69pd]

They cant, but really I dont think Thypus is better as Mort, the difference is one is a true Monster and other great support, different roles .

Guess I will just have to use them both even though they dislike eachother.

[Commissar K.]

 

They cant, but really I dont think Thypus is better as Mort, the difference is one is a true Monster and other great support, different roles .

Guess I will just have to use them both even though they dislike eachother.

 

I expect some new lore ;) minus Draigo heart writing.

[Marshal Loss]

I wouldn't expect new lore on their relationship - Dark Imperium shows that Typhus still loathes/resents Mortarion, and refuses to fight with him if it isn't according to Nurgle's plan.

[Bulwyf]

I always found that odd. Mortarion could eradicate Typhus in a blink of the eye. It doesn't ring true to me that a primarch would put up with that kind of blatant disrespect from an underling.

[OnboardG1]

I always found that odd. Mortarion could eradicate Typhus in a blink of the eye. It doesn't ring true to me that a primarch would put up with that kind of blatant disrespect from an underling.

 

Primarchs are still human, even the daemon ones. They all have their weird little blind spots and habits. He might still hold some residual respect for his former first captain or wants to preserve a powerful ally. Heck the most likely reason is that papa Nurgle has plans for Typhus and has told Morty to be the bigger man and deal with it.

[Plaguecaster]

Yeah he may be a Primarch but Typhus is one of Nurgle's most favoured servants probably more so than mortarion who was just an unwilling offering to Nurgle whilst Typhus was the one who lead the DG and Mortarion into Nurgle's embrace. Even being a daemon Primarch wouldn't save him from Nurgle's displeasure at killing a treasured servant especially since Nurgle is the one god who cares about his followers the most

[Ishagu]

No point worrying about anything until the full rules are out :-)

So far he looks pretty beastly.

[Commissar K.]

I wouldn't expect new lore on their relationship - Dark Imperium shows that Typhus still loathes/resents Mortarion, and refuses to fight with him if it isn't according to Nurgle's plan.

I would though, based on the new lore on Mortarion's relationship with Nurgle to begin with. Mortarion initially refused Horus, then Nurgle and look where it all got him... He is the Daemon Prince of Nurgle with his own Legion. Typhons' former relationship that is described into detail is about a Nurgle follower versus a Mortarion who at that point in his live didn't gave into Chaos.

 

As the lore proceeded Mortarion proceeded to lead a Nurgle planned Death Guard. As a Daemon Prince he's bound to the Warp and Nurgle so the former freedom he had as a mortal in many ways does not apply anymore. Which in turn means Typhon now Typhus has very little reason to loathe or resent him at all. 

 

Look at it in the same way as the relationship between Chaos Lords and Exalted Champions. The Exalted Champions are there to fill the shoes of the Chaos Lord if they fall, they might loathe and resent them in a way but nontheless follow them. I see no reason how refusal of that wouldn't lead to instant death. 

[Marshal Loss]

I think you missed the point, and your comparison does not hold up. Firstly, Mortarion did not initially refuse Horus; I am not sure where you got that from. What 'new lore' on his relationship with Nurgle are you talking about?

 

Dark Imperium, the novel, has a conversation between Typhus and Mortarion, and it shows that nothing has really changed at all from the lore that has existed since Typhus was introduced into the setting. He resents Mortarion for the favour he has received from their patron, still believing that he is not fully committed to their god. Mortarion, for his part, looks down on Typhus with indifference.

 

Ku'gath even describes Typhus as Mortarion's 'wayward' son, and Typhus is clearly bitter at his gene-father.

 

 

For all the racket of Typhus’ manifestation, his contempt was clear when he spoke.

 

‘You do not believe. Not truly,’ said Typhus. ‘You have paid nothing for your power. The false Emperor made you, gene-father. Nurgle took you as a prize – you are a trophy, my lord. You would never have found your way to enlightenment without me. Without me, you would have nothing. You would be dead, your soul dispersed into the warp. I fought my way into the Great Father’s attention. I became his herald by will and by the dint of my own efforts. What have you done to win his favour?’

 

‘I will do as I please,’ said Typhus. ‘If only you would abandon the last of your being to the lord of life, you would see. You have no power over me.

 

Typhus snorted. ‘You cannot command me as you once did. I am high in the favour of the Plague God – equal to you in his eyes, if not higher. Who was it who delivered him the Death Guard? It was I, not you. You still do not understand the true nature of Chaos. I do. I am following our plan as originally formulated. The blessing of the Great Father was on that strategy, not on this quest for vengeance. You deceived me, Mortarion. You intended to play with your brother all along. This will displease the Plague God. I will continue as we originally agreed. I will have no part in this folly.’

 

‘But you are wrong if you believe that I will fight at your side. You have no real foresight. I will not be there to help you, no matter what your numerology says. And now I go. Be warned, little father – I have the ear of the Great Father himself.’

 

This is the way it has always been. They are not like a Lord and a Champion, because Typhus is not under his command anymore. They are rivals for the patronage of their god, seeking his favour.

 

So yes, while there will obviously be some new lore in this codex, I do not expect a change in the relationship between Typhus and Mortarion. There has been nothing so far to indicate this; the fact that they both follow the whims of their patron mean that GW can utilise them in campaigns/stories without having to worry about repairing their relationship.

[Commissar K.]

I think you missed the point, and your comparison does not hold up. Firstly, Mortarion did not initially refuse Horus; I am not sure where you got that from. What 'new lore' on his relationship with Nurgle are you talking about?

 

Dark Imperium, the novel, has a conversation between Typhus and Mortarion, and it shows that nothing has really changed at all from the lore that has existed since Typhus was introduced into the setting. He resents Mortarion for the favour he has received from their patron, still believing that he is not fully committed to their god. Mortarion, for his part, looks down on Typhus with indifference.

 

This is the way it has always been. They are not like a Lord and a Champion, because Typhus is not under his command anymore. They are rivals for the patronage of their god, seeking his favour.

From the Horus Heresy Novels it is clear that Mortarion did no join Horus the moment he asked it from him. Showing up at a much later time as the other Traitor Primarchs.

 

The Chaos Index, short in lore as it might be, states the following:

 

 

Unlike so many of their fellow traitors, the Death Guard lost neither their discipline nor their cohesion after the retreat into the Eye of Terror. With Mortarion’s rise to fully fledged Daemonhood, the Legion broke into smaller warbands led by their mightiest champions, but still they continued to fight with a singular identity and purpose. Mortarion still directed his plague-ridden sons from afar, and the Death Guard continued to recruit new warriors into their ranks, albeit often by force.

So as before, edgy as Typhus is, without doubt he should follow Mortarion and his Death Guard Legion. It's the type of anamosity that is common in the Legions of Chaos but Typhus should fully know his place. I see no reason why Mortarion, now he has a model, will not thake control of the full DG force. 

[Marshal Loss]

 

I think you missed the point, and your comparison does not hold up. Firstly, Mortarion did not initially refuse Horus; I am not sure where you got that from. What 'new lore' on his relationship with Nurgle are you talking about?

 

Dark Imperium, the novel, has a conversation between Typhus and Mortarion, and it shows that nothing has really changed at all from the lore that has existed since Typhus was introduced into the setting. He resents Mortarion for the favour he has received from their patron, still believing that he is not fully committed to their god. Mortarion, for his part, looks down on Typhus with indifference.

 

This is the way it has always been. They are not like a Lord and a Champion, because Typhus is not under his command anymore. They are rivals for the patronage of their god, seeking his favour.

From the Horus Heresy Novels it is clear that Mortarion did no join Horus the moment he asked it from him. Showing up at a much later time as the other Traitor Primarchs.

 

That is very far from the truth. Look at the HH novels, the old Index Astartes, and the FW books. Mortarion was present at Isstvan, and at the original meetings where they planned the betrayal. There are innumerable sources stating how close he was to Horus; he was one of the very first to pledge himself with little to no hesitation. The only Primarch that took a long time to come to Horus' side was Magnus; Fulgrim arrived a little late for the initial betrayal, but had pledged himself prior to Isstvan nonetheless.

 

 

The Chaos Index, short in lore as it might be, states the following:

 

 

Unlike so many of their fellow traitors, the Death Guard lost neither their discipline nor their cohesion after the retreat into the Eye of Terror. With Mortarion’s rise to fully fledged Daemonhood, the Legion broke into smaller warbands led by their mightiest champions, but still they continued to fight with a singular identity and purpose. Mortarion still directed his plague-ridden sons from afar, and the Death Guard continued to recruit new warriors into their ranks, albeit often by force.

So as before, edgy as Typhus is, without doubt he should follow Mortarion and his Death Guard Legion. It's the type of anamosity that is common in the Legions of Chaos but Typhus should fully know his place. I see no reason why Mortarion, now he has a model, will not thake control of the full DG force. 

 

 

This is not new lore; Mortarion has always directed the progress of his Legion from the plague planet, for many editions now. However, you're ignoring that Typhus abandoned new-Barbarus to take up his own destiny as the Herald of Nurgle, the Traveller. Just as in 30k, when he had his own marines loyal to him and not to their Primarch, so it is in 40k.

 

Not to mention the fact that the quotes I just provided clearly show that Typhus, during the invasion of Ultramar (so current lore), does not consider himself to be under the control of Mortarion. There are exceptions to every rule, and Typhus (along with Erebus) is one of the 'first-generation' of Traitors, believing themselves not beholden to their Primarchs.

 

You seem to be under the impression that Typhus needs to be Mortarion's underling in order to allow them to fight together, but we don't need that, because their devotion to Nurgle already provides all the justification we need. So no, I definitely do not expect new lore showing them liking each other.

[Commissar K.]

 

You seem to be under the impression that Typhus needs to be Mortarion's underling in order to allow them to fight together, but we don't need that, because their devotion to Nurgle already provides all the justification we need. So no, I definitely do not expect new lore showing them liking each other.

 

Never said the latter.

You seem to be under the impression lore wont change, Im going to bet with you that it will. We see death Primarch return, new kinds of space marines and Chaos Cultists being full fledged Legion members also. What we see is that the game grows and lore will alter to it. But if you expect that the whole Draigo story will be in there too, feel free to hold onto old lore expectations.

[Marshal Loss]

This...

 

 

 

They cant, but really I dont think Thypus is better as Mort, the difference is one is a true Monster and other great support, different roles .

Guess I will just have to use them both even though they dislike eachother.

 

I expect some new lore minus Draigo heart writing.

 

 

...certainly implies the latter. I didn't mention Draigo at all (and for the record, that is still in the latest Grey Knight book). I will take your bet. Cultists being...fully fledged Legion members? Are you saying this just because they get traits on the tabletop? Please, come on.

 

Of course lore changes from time to time. But there's a difference between bringing forward events that were hinted at, yet had never come to fruition (return of the Daemon Primarchs) and re-writing a character. I've just provided quotes from a novel that accompanies this new lore release. I could produce more from others, but seeing as you have literally no evidence other than the belief that in 8th all DG will be subservient to Mortarion including Typhus, I'll leave you to it.

 

edit: decision to not bother vindicated by below post

[Commissar K.]

This...

 

 

 

They cant, but really I dont think Thypus is better as Mort, the difference is one is a true Monster and other great support, different roles .

Guess I will just have to use them both even though they dislike eachother.

 

I expect some new lore minus Draigo heart writing.

 

 

...certainly implies the latter. I didn't mention Draigo at all (and for the record, that is still in the latest Grey Knight book). I will take your bet. Cultists being...fully fledged Legion members? Are you saying this just because they get traits on the tabletop? Please, come on.

 

Of course lore changes sometimes. But there's a difference between bringing on events that were hinted at yet had never come to fruition (return of the Daemon Primarchs) and re-writing a character. I've just provided quotes from a novel that accompanies this new lore release. I could produce more from others, but seeing as you have literally no evidence, I'll leave you to it.

What on earth are you on about?

 

I expect new lore, you dont, all fine.

[Plaguecaster]

Yeah there may be new lore but that will do nothing to change how Mortarion and Typhus are, Typhus always hated Mortarion especially after the Heresy where Mortarion let sentiment and personal ego control his thoughts when he created a plague planet in the image of his home world. Yes they may fight together but it no longer is like a lord commanding his vassal but two rivals fighting for their god's glory. Dark Imperium even proves it

[Bulwyf]

It has always been established that Typhus resents/hates Mortarion. Typhus is the true believer and he sees Mortarion as some special "snowflake" that Nurgle took as a trophy in addition to the Death Guard. Mortarion puts up with Typhus. I just don't think Morty would put up with that kind of lip. I know Nurgle has probably told him to be the bigger man and let it go but still...it seems off.

 

In terms of the table top there's nothing keeping them from being on the same list. Typhus would work with Mortarion if he believes it really is for Nurgle's plan or for mutual self defense.

[Panzer]

I honestly don't think Mortarion cares, really.

Mortarion is a daemon now. Anything he does ultimately is serving Nurgle in one way or another. Typhus does his job whether he likes working with Mortarion or not. Except for Mortarions pride there is no reason why he should act against Typhus in any way.

Even if it would come to a clash between Typhus and Mortarion then Typhus would probably the one ending up being in the wrong since after all he is still 'just' a 'mortal' while Mortarion is a daemon which means he is a part of Nurgle. And I think both know that.

Typhus can rant and talk down to Mortarion as much as he wants but ultimately Mortarion is part of the being Typhus worships and serves willingly or not.