2 Predators or a Land Raider...

[neonmole]

Hi guys,

 

So the title really says it all, but for context - I have played 3 games of 8th so far (and incidentally this is the totality of my expierience with the BA). These games have all been at 1500 pts, and I have been thinking about what I would add when I beef up to 2000.

 

It has become apparent that some long range AT firepower would be good, right now I a basically meltaguns/combat or bust, and in my most recent game against AdMech (despite winning) this felt like an issue.

 

It seems to me that the two premier options for me to fill this gap would be a landraider, or 2 predator annihalators (tri las).

 

I am wondeing if those with expierience can advise me on the best path. You can almost get 2 preds for the price of one Land Raider...

 

LR pros

- good way of delivering termies (which I am using)

- mobility, can always move and shoot

- situationally tougher overall? (not always true I feel)

- rule of cool...

[Panzer]

Definitely the Preds.

[Karhedron]

Or for a few points more you can get 4 Razorabacks with twin lascannons. Same number of lascannon shots as 2 Predators but nearly twice the number of wounds and you can use their transport capacity for small squads if you want/need to. 2 Predators = 402 points (or 380 once we get the same price drop as the codex versions) for 22 T7 wounds. 4 LC Razorbacks cost 460 points for 40 T7 wounds.

 

The humble Razorback has a lot going for it as a firing platform IMHO.

[Remtek]

It depends on the rest of your list

 

My generic advice would be

 

Razors with twin lascannons

Land Raider with 4 lascannons

Las Preds

 

In that order. The Land raider has so much indirect value, atleast on terrain heavy bo

[neonmole]

Thanks for the input.

 

Seems like there is consensus on the razorbacks, but contrary views on the preds vs landraider.

 

@Remtek

 

It would be really useful if you could elaborate on indirect value you see in the LR.

 

Cheers

Joe

[sultansean]

I was just wondering the same thing. Fire output favours the preds over the raider but is that toughness and extra armour save a big enough benefit?

 

Are you planning on trsnposrting terminators? The issue I have with the land raider as a transport is if you move closer to the enemy you give them the chance to consolidate into you or charge you with something like a rhino and then you are not shooting for a turn.

[Panzer]

Well if you don't plan to transport something you are better off with the Predators and if you plan to transport something you are better off with the Razorback imho 

[neonmole]

I have also been thinking about the threat of getting charged...

 

I think as long as you are aware of it, you can mitigate it quite effectively. At least on turns 1&2, which is when you really don't want it to happen.

 

My BA (and most I imagine) has a pretty sizeable number of deep striking units, as well as smaller vehicles. I would think using these it is quite realistic that you can either 1) tie up 2) screen 3) make it prohibitively dangerous, for an enemy to close and charge the Land Raider.

 

To answer your question, yes I am transporting assault terminators, which I think also helps, as if something charges you then you are more or guaranteed to be able to wreck it with the terminators in the subsequent turns (playing into my 3rd point above).

[Helias_Tancred]

The two predators split your opponents fire.

 

But they don't deliver terminator squads :(

[Panzer]

The two predators split your opponents fire.

 

But they don't deliver terminator squads

Do they have to get delivered tho? If they put pressure on the opponent the Terminators you deep strike are way less in danger than they normally would be. ;)

[Crimson Ghost IX]

Quick note on the Predator - have a good look at the Predator Autocannon over the dual lascannon turret, it is nice IMO.

 

To answer your question it really depends on what you are doing with your force.

Also these choices do not have to be either / or.

 

I have a 1500 point list with 1 Landraider, 1 Predator, and two Lasbacks for instance.

 

I think the Landraider is great for deploying a number of jump pack characters on the table in one drop and then playing distraction bunker.

Predators are good, but you can likely get something else instead to do the job well and still be fine (Devastators etc).

Razorbacks deploy / transport less bulky troops and Corbulo/Mephy etc very well if you plan for it.

Edited September 5, 2017 by Crimson Ghost IX

[rayvn26]

In my army the models I have in the form of armor is 4 Asscan Razors, 3 Preds with Autocannon an Lascannons, 2 Asscan Baal Preds, 1 Land Raider Crusader and 1 Stormraven. To me these tanks can pretty much handle any situation I may run into. I don't think I've run all of them in a game but I have run a lot of tanks, but that's the meta here, lots and lots of hoards with huge tanks, then there's me with a lot of "small" tanks harassing everything.

 

But like what's been stated, it depends on the job you want them to do, and remember, that a land raider draws a lot of fire. 

[durdle-durdle]

i wonder what the math of predator autocannon vs lascannon vs t 6-10 enemies. I wonder if the multi shots from the autocannon edges out the lascannon in any way mathematically.

[Remtek]

Thanks for the input.

 

Seems like there is consensus on the razorbacks, but contrary views on the preds vs landraider.

 

@Remtek

 

It would be really useful if you could elaborate on indirect value you see in the LR.

 

Cheers

Joe

 

- They can move and shoot at full bs

- T8 makes makes overcharged plasma and melta suicide squads alot more hit and miss and the 2+ armor is really helpful.

- You can put mobile units inside. Throw some jump DC inside and they can reliably charge something 21-22 inches away.

- Shield of sanguinious (4++) makes it very durable and it's hard to ignore 4 lascannons every turn. 

- It's also a huge los blocker you can protect units inside or behind. Putting 4 devs behind it for example and moving the raider away afterwards.

- Usually means less drops so your chanses are of going first/+1 is greater.

 

Not that a predator is bad, they all are viable, but SM received a point drop on pred and have strategems that synergize, we don't have that yet.

 

 

i wonder what the math of predator autocannon vs lascannon vs t 6-10 enemies. I wonder if the multi shots from the autocannon edges out the lascannon in any way mathematically.

 

Autocannon is slightly stronger vs things with 4+ invul saves, lascannons is slightly stronger versus 3+ armor saves. When we get the killshot strategem it gives +1 to wound making the autocannons overall stronger.

 

Vs t7 3+ armor

Pred AC: 2 wounds

Twin Las: 2,59

 

vs T7 3+4++

Pred AC: 2 wounds

Twin Las: 1,55

 

The lascannon has a small advantage that you can command point the las dmg result after the save is failed, that can be useful vs things like Magnus who save a lot of stuff. 

[Silas7]

But isn't the AC cheaper and can deal with larger group targets better?

[Helias_Tancred]

 

The two predators split your opponents fire.

 

But they don't deliver terminator squads

Do they have to get delivered tho? If they put pressure on the opponent the Terminators you deep strike are way less in danger than they normally would be.

 

 

I've had better luck with them assaulting out of my land raider than deep striking.

[neonmole]

Regarding the Terminators - deepstrike vs. LR.

 

In the games I have played the deepstrike is a fine option, however I think there are a some advantages to the LR.

 

1 - I think you will more reliably get value from the unit in the LR, as you not likely to have turns on the board when you can't charge.

2 - They are not contributing to the 50% of your units that can deepstrike, which is a premium for BA with how many units of ours can

2 - You are more likely to have a command point to spend on supporting thier charge, as they are likely doing so on turn 2, rather than turn 1 when you probably have several deepstrike units competing for it.

[Indefragable]

Neonmole:

 

What's a general idea of what the rest of your list looks like?

 

LR's, even the lascannon variety are actually usable this edition. The beauty of the Godhammer (lascannon variant) + 5x TH/SS Termie combo is that you can decide whether to DS them or give them a ride depending on the mission, battlefield conditions, etc...DS'ing Termies in your opponent's backfield can also draw fire from the LR.

 

As others point out, one of the biggest advantages of the LR is that you can legitimately hide units behind it (jump melee unit?)

 

Predators aren't great, but I find they have a use depending on what the rest of your list looks like. Razorbacks are more points efficient, but sometimes have 3x weapons that can fire in different directions is helpful.

[neonmole]

@Indefragable

 

The rest of my list is relatively fluid at the moment, I have a lot of bits in construction/unpainted - but to give you a general picture, the last list I used at 1500 (this post was able scaling to 2k) was:

 

Captain with jump pack (melta & relic blade)

Priest (melta & encarmine sword)

Lemartes

 

3 x 5 Tacs (combi melta, power sword, heavy flamer)

Rhino (2 storm bolter, HKM)

Assback (HKM)

 

5 Sanguinary Guard

6 Death Company (2 power sword, 1 TH)

5 Assault Termies

 

It's obviously not an optimised tournament list, but it's been effective against similar lists (balanced, fun, "let's learn 8th" type lists) in my gaming group.

 

If I were to add the LR, I would probably also add in an other 5/6 man DC unit, to come down as part of the deepstrike force with Lemartes. If possible also trade in the rhino for another pair of Assbacks. Though, the Rhino is actually quite good, having the liberty to move without worrying about compromising your firepower, and charging of course, has been very strong.

Edited September 5, 2017 by neonmole

[Indefragable]

Rhinos punch far above their weight class this edition. Especially if you pack 2x storm bolters: 8x shots + eating Overwatch that probably won't effect it? Yes please...

 

...the issue is that Assbacks are SO good you almost need to ask yourself why you aren't bringing them instead.

 

Based on what you've shared above, I think a lascannon LR would not be out of place to complement your force. It can transport the Termies, provide that precious long-range AT shooting that is so crucial this edition, and will draw fire from your other units, allowing each of them to be more effective in turn. Something to think about.

 

Now, that is my personal (take as you will) suggestion based on what you've shared. I would go a slightly different direction if you were going for uber-optimization. Secondly, if you were to pickup a land raider, I would HIGHLY advise buying the Deathwatch LR kit since it comes with the parts for all 3 variants. If there's one model that will go a long way being magnetized, it's the LR.

Edited September 5, 2017 by Indefragable

[Aothaine]

Thanks for the input.

 

Seems like there is consensus on the razorbacks, but contrary views on the preds vs landraider.

 

@Remtek

 

It would be really useful if you could elaborate on indirect value you see in the LR.

 

Cheers

Joe

 

Razorbacks are really good. Most likely the best option until we get stratagems for predators. Though if you are transporting your Terms then the Land Raider will be better imho.

 

But it also depends on your list. Does it have enough Anti-Tank? Does it have enough Anti-Infantry? etc.

Edited September 5, 2017 by Aothaine

[Karhedron]

 

But it also depends on your list. Does it have enough Anti-Tank? Does it have enough Anti-Infantry? etc.

 

This is always a good starting point. Can you deal with it if your opponent brings certain units. Conversely, it is worth thinking how you can vex opponents with your unit selection.

 

This is what made Deathstars so effective in 7th edition, they could deal with pretty much any sort of unit (short of another Deathstar) while being mighty hard for your opponent to remove. 8th edition has largely eliminated Deathstars but the idea of picking troublesome units or combos for your opponent to deal with is still a good one. Razorback spam is an example of this (although not one I would advocate copying necessarily). They are tough enough that most opponents will struggle to bring enough shooting to bear to take them down and have enough firepower to threaten most targets.

[durdle-durdle]

Rhinos are better if you have a 10-man unit of aggressive troops. If you're going forward, your razor loses a lot of accuracy (other than flamestorm variant). The assback is still good aggressively, but I think it's best used protecting a unit that wants to stay around 24 (or just as a gun boat). The rhino doesn't really lose much, and aren't really expensive for your assault troops.