Is Celestine really OP/undercosted?

[Atrus]

Ive been pondering this a little. The closest comparison we have would be:

 

Canoness with combiflamer and eviscerator. She comes in at 78 points.

 

Celestine is 150pts base.

 

For a 72 poi t difference, celestine has:

+2 wounds

+2 attack

+1 strength

+6" move.

+1 better save.

Auto faith.

Invo bubble.

 

Personally i think this isnt too much for 72pts. In fact i think this is pretty on the nose.

What makes Celestine so strong then, inducing tears in all who oppose her?

Faith. That core part native to our army.

[Servant of Dante]

It's the auto AoF, coming back to life, and bringing back gemeni that make her really good. And the Ardent Blade is pretty great this edition. I'd think she might be a bit undercosted if anything.

[Atrus]

Im just talking by herself. The geminae you have to pay for to have.

I dont think she meeds a nerf. A points increase maybe due to as tou pointed out, being able to come bac which slipped my mind.

At most id be happy to see her point coat increase to the old WH codex cost of 201pts.

By herself shes not that bad.

[Montford]

T3 is a massive Achilles tendon. A bolt pistol wounds her on a 3+. An Imperial Guardsman with a cricket bat wounds her on a 4+. There's no way she's OP. Very good yes indeed, but far from overpowered.

 

So even with all her excellent ability she has enough vulnerability. From 20+ games with her so far in 8th I think she's pretty much right on the money points-wise.

[Beams]

She's fine, in 2000 pts. She really should just be a lord of war.

[dracpanzer]

She is fine in an SoB list, when tossed into an otherwise IG list it starts to make her into a massive headache.

 

The unit of three models that still qualifies as a character, easily protecting her from incoming fire if you are smart, with her 2+ res and the Healing Tears rule and AoF shenanigans is what gets everyone ticked off.

 

Limiting her free AoF and Geminae to only being available when you field a non HQ battle forged detachment of SoB would fix that. That will never happen though, doesn't matter if she is OP or undercosted. The hue and cry has already started, if they haven't already printed the SoB codex (whatever form that eventualy takes) she is going to get nerfed anyhow. If it is already finished, she probably got nerfed anyways. SoB are not allowed to have nice things.

[Atrus]

Well lets look at it this way.

For 244pts you can have:

2 canoness with combi flamer and eviscerator.

8x celestians (including superior).

 

In there we effectively have celestine and her return and 2 geminae brought back once each. But with more dakka, no 4++ and slightly slower and still able to benefit from AoF. Stick to cover for extra save.

 

Now which is nastier to face?

[Neoslate]

The Ardent Blade is what puts her over the edge of good and into nerf territory imo... I just hope they don't go overboard with the nerf as she is pretty squishy as is.

 

I think Codex: Ministorum will be a pretty big event anyway so maybe there'll be a reason fluff wise for her to be nerfed.

[A.T.]

He cost split is just wrong IMHO.

 

Celestine is a 250pt unit, not a 150pt unit - however the Gemini are eating too large a slice of that particular pie. They should be around 25pts each and Celestine 200 - that reduces her value as a distraction carnifex to other armies.

 

 

Also Sisters should have a viable alternative. A canoness who can take a jump pack (at the usual 125% cost), generate a faith point (to keep up with her own units) and has a S6 eviscerator that costs less than a marines S8 fist would be a very strong alternative option for sisters players.

[TheShredder]

He cost split is just wrong IMHO.

 

Celestine is a 250pt unit, not a 150pt unit - however the Gemini are eating too large a slice of that particular pie. They should be around 25pts each and Celestine 200 - that reduces her value as a distraction carnifex to other armies.

 

I disagree - all this will do is make her 2 Geminae auto-takes. Given that she's more overpowered with them than without them, that's not an improvement. 

 

IMO there are 2 solutions:

 

1) Reduce her power. Honestly, this may be a good idea even if #2 is done. Basically, she should be good in combat but I don't think she needs to be quite the Juggernaut of Destruction that she currently is. I'd suggest one or two of the following nerfs:

- Reduce the Strength to 5 or 6.

- Reduce her Attacks to 5.

- Reduce her Wounds to 6.

- Give Geminae worse saves (e.g. 3+ armour).

- Either make Healing Tears require an Act of Faith or just remove it altogether (so that she can't bring back both Geminae in the same turn).

 

2) Make Geminae act as independent HQs, rather than forming a unit with Celestine. Now, it might be worth upping their stats and weapons slightly (as well as their cost), perhaps also giving them Celestine's aura. But, at the end of the day, they'd be separate HQs and so wouldn't be able to protect Celestne from harm. And even if Healing Tears remain in some form, she can no longer use an Act of Faith to revive one.

 

What's more, the three of them can no longer benefit from the same Act of Faith. So, if Celestine wants to have a double-move then she'll be doing to alone, without her Geminae to screen her. 

[A.T.]

I disagree - all this will do is make her 2 Geminae auto-takes. Given that she's more overpowered with them than without them, that's not an improvement. 

You may be right, but the tournament scene appears to disagree. Perhaps because she seemed to be used primarily as a distraction carnifex.

 

 

 

What's more, the three of them can no longer benefit from the same Act of Faith. So, if Celestine wants to have a double-move then she'll be doing to alone, without her Geminae to screen her.

The inability of characters to share the faith of nearby units is, IMHO, a flaw in the system. I suspect Celestines own faith generation was a band-aid fix to get around it.

 

-----

 

Healing Tears requiring faith would make sense if faith scaled with army size in a more functional way than 'spend 80 points, get one (hopefully) faith point with a 6" range from an infantry unit who may not be in a transport at the time'.

 

Something that stands out about Sisters in the Imperial soup lists is that you generally only see one unit of them, perhaps two if the second is a vehicle-mounted dominion squad or similar. Can't fault the logic of the tourney players there - one squad of allied retributors has the firepower of two squads. One squad in a full sized sisters army on the other hand has the firepower of ... one squad.

[Atrus]

I disagree on the suggestion to lower her strength or amount of attacks. If anything i think the thing that makes her such a heavy hitter is that she deals 2 damage with each wound. I think lowering her damage to 1 would be a more than noticeable difference. Suddenly shes not such a massive threat to to walkers and vehicles and multiwound models.

[Montford]

Nerfing Celestine would be foolish considering what the other 40K Armies can bring to the table as compared to what the Adepta Sororitas can bring to the table. She is one of the chief reasons Sisters of Battle can even hope to be competitive right now. Nerf her and the Sisters go back to being the bench warmers they were in 7th.

[TheShredder]

 

You may be right, but the tournament scene appears to disagree. Perhaps because she seemed to be used primarily as a distraction carnifex.

 

I haven't looked at many tournament lists, so I'll take your word for it. I stand by what I said though - doing it this way will just make the Geminae auto-takes. What's more, I'd rather see her brought down in power a little than just get a big price hike (whether just for her or in total wit her Geminae).

 

 

 

The inability of characters to share the faith of nearby units is, IMHO, a flaw in the system. I suspect Celestines own faith generation was a band-aid fix to get around it.

-----

 

Healing Tears requiring faith would make sense if faith scaled with army size in a more functional way than 'spend 80 points, get one (hopefully) faith point with a 6" range from an infantry unit who may not be in a transport at the time'.

 

 

Sure. But as I've said elsewhere, I think this is a core problem with SoB that needs to be addressed anyway. A single OP ability on a special character isn't a good solution. 

 

 

I disagree on the suggestion to lower her strength or amount of attacks. If anything i think the thing that makes her such a heavy hitter is that she deals 2 damage with each wound. I think lowering her damage to 1 would be a more than noticeable difference. Suddenly shes not such a massive threat to to walkers and vehicles and multiwound models.

 

My concern is that that would be a step too far and would make her too feeble in combat.

 

 

Nerfing Celestine would be foolish considering what the other 40K Armies can bring to the table as compared to what the Adepta Sororitas can bring to the table. She is one of the chief reasons Sisters of Battle can even hope to be competitive right now. Nerf her and the Sisters go back to being the bench warmers they were in 7th.

 

 

You may be right, but the tournament scene appears to disagree. Perhaps because she seemed to be used primarily as a distraction carnifex.

 

 

 

The inability of characters to share the faith of nearby units is, IMHO, a flaw in the system. I suspect Celestines own faith generation was a band-aid fix to get around it.

-----

 

Healing Tears requiring faith would make sense if faith scaled with army size in a more functional way than 'spend 80 points, get one (hopefully) faith point with a 6" range from an infantry unit who may not be in a transport at the time'.

 

Something that stands out about Sisters in the Imperial soup lists is that you generally only see one unit of them, perhaps two if the second is a vehicle-mounted dominion squad or similar. Can't fault the logic of the tourney players there - one squad of allied retributors has the firepower of two squads. One squad in a full sized sisters army on the other hand has the firepower of ... one squad.

 

[A.T.]

I haven't looked at many tournament lists, so I'll take your word for it. I stand by what I said though - doing it this way will just make the Geminae auto-takes. What's more, I'd rather see her brought down in power a little than just get a big price hike (whether just for her or in total wit her Geminae).

Almost universally Celestine with no gemini plus either minimum seraphim with inferno pistols or retributors with heavy bolters - one unit of sisters, no more.

 

 

 

Ive been pondering this a little. The closest comparison we have would be:

Canoness with combiflamer and eviscerator. She comes in at 78 points.

Keep in mind the eviscerator is ludicrously overpriced by codex standards. It's a strength 6 unwieldy weapon for 22 points whereas a strength 8 unwieldy fist is only 12.

 

A jump pack canoness would be 56pts (125%). Give her a sensibly priced eviscerator and you'd get close to four units for the cost of celestine & 2 gemini. At that point you'd have to be tempted, especially if they had the same faith-generating band-aid as Celestine.

 

Without the gemini and just the 150pt Celestine the trade looks less favourable but as mentioned I think the gemini have too large a slice of her overall cost. The rest is as much the canoness being underarmed and underfaithed as anything else.

[ERJAK]

If they drop the buff to guard she'd never get noticed again.

[Atrus]

Honestly she shouldnt be buffing guard imo. Shes a sisters unit. Maybe a tie over from old days of self contai ed armies, shes only buffing them now so her model sells.

 

Edit: if she were a space marine or better yet an eldar character or from any other non-imperial army, would we be hearing so much crying?

[Blackarmor_redtruth]

I consider her design to incorporate the two geminae. With that in mind, each army seems to be getting a center-piece flying or with wings type model. On this trend, I think she (with the geminae) are fine.

[TheShredder]

Honestly she shouldnt be buffing guard imo. Shes a sisters unit. 

 

Sure, but surely she's still a beacon of hope for guardsmen as much as sisters? Arguably more so as they're likely to be isolated from the mini-miracles that Sisters get.

 

What's more, Celestine isn't the only Living Saint - there are even guardsmen/commissars who have ascended to such.

 

So, if Celestine doesn't buff guardsmen, perhaps guardsmen should get their own Living Saint who does?

 

Though, honestly, I've long wished that there was a 'generic' Living Saint that could be customised to some degree, rather than only being allowed to use a very specific one.

[cheesers]

 

Honestly she shouldnt be buffing guard imo. Shes a sisters unit. 

 

 

 

So, if Celestine doesn't buff guardsmen, perhaps guardsmen should get their own Living Saint who does?

 

 

 

 Commisar Yarrick :3,  130pts

[TheShredder]

 

 Commisar Yarrick :3,  130pts

 

 

Ah, of course. I must have been thrown off by his lack of wings, lack of resurrection, lack of anything resembling a living saint weapon and the fact that he's not a living saint. 

[Beams]

Bring back Lord Solar Macharius

[Eddie Orlock]

 

Commisar Yarrick :3,  130pts

Ah, of course. I must have been thrown off by his lack of ... resurrection... 

 

The Ol'man of Armageddon has a long history of 'resurrection-esq' game mechanics. Sure, they like to call it things like 'indomitable will', but seriously though, will power that lets you 'get back up' after being sucked into the warp via a vortex grenade is pretty dang miraculous. It's just that the guard rules are named by the departemento munitorium who're less likely to realise that his survival was the divine intervention of Him on Earth.

 

As for his saintly weapon. That's the power Klaw. They only work for those who're back up by mystic forces. Orks and their gestalt psychic reality warping field and the Mystic chosen heroes of the Emperor, like Celestine and Yarrick.

[TheShredder]

 

The Ol'man of Armageddon has a long history of 'resurrection-esq' game mechanics. Sure, they like to call it things like 'indomitable will', but seriously though, will power that lets you 'get back up' after being sucked into the warp via a vortex grenade is pretty dang miraculous. It's just that the guard rules are named by the departemento munitorium who're less likely to realise that his survival was the divine intervention of Him on Earth.

 

I appreciate that he could resurrect in the past. However, this is the present and he can't (and no, I don't count glorified FNP as resurrection). 

 

 

As for his saintly weapon. That's the power Klaw. They only work for those who're back up by mystic forces. Orks and their gestalt psychic reality warping field and the Mystic chosen heroes of the Emperor, like Celestine and Yarrick.

 

Sorry, I don't care. maybe it has some interesting fluff behind it, but mechanically it's just a palette-swapped Power Fist - which is not unique, special or saintly in any way.

[Servant of Dante]

Again, having magical powers isn't what makes you a living Saint. It's just a title used by the Ecclesiarchy. Yarrick could be declared a living saint by the Ecclesiarchy, It might actually be an interesting bit of fluff, but in any case this is getting pretty off topic.