An attempt to defend death company...

[durdle-durdle]

So after seeing much lamenting on death company, trying to come up with an argument for defending death company, trying to play death company, getting severely depressed about death company's seeming impotence, and thinking more about death company, I think I may have found a good strategy with them.  I still continue to believe they are overcosted somewhat, or need some small buff, but I think I have found a strategy that works somewhat decently to well with them.

 

First, let's contrast death company to vanguard vets (with jump packs, obviously)

-death company cost a stormbolter more

-death company come base with pistol and chainsword, but can trade that pistol in for a bolter

-death company get a 6+ FNP

-death company get an extra attack on the charge (for 4)

-death company can have 3 thunder hammer attacks on the charge, vets get 2

-death company synergize with lemartes extremely well, and can reroll charges

 

 

On the other hand

-vanguard vets can have 4 attacks all the time, if they trade their pistol for another chainsword

-vanguard vets can only take pistols as weapons

-vanguard vets can take storm shields

 

-As an aside, double chainsword marines look super dank, but that's just objective ;)

 

Next, lets compare lemartes to a chaplain:

-lemartes himself is a chaplain with a crozius that has an additional point of strength, ap, and does d3 damage instead of a flat 2

-lemartes has 5 attacks instead of a normal 2

-lemartes can reroll his own charge rolls

-lemartes has an extra attack on the charge and a 6+ FNP

 

chaplain:

-nearly 15 storm bolters cheaper

-can take ranged weapons, and different melee weapons

-potentially in terminator armor, if you want a 2+ save at the loss of mobility

 

So, the way I envision this is trading in the bolt pistol for the bolter to capitalize on their ability to take an actual ranged weapon.  This allows them to deep strike in one turn, preferably into a ruin or other terrain, and take some shots.  While bolter shots aren't amazing, they can do damage to bubble wrap easily.  This allows them to get a 2+ save and shoot away the wrap that they would normally charge, then cause them to get shot to death.  Sit in the ruins for that turn, then jump 12" out to an actual target, and have a great chance of making a good charge with lemmy.  Lemmy himself is no slouch at all in combat and can easily eat whole squads on his own, and possibly lighter or damaged vehicles.

 

Now this only works, in my opinion if you take a heavy concentration in death company and lemartes.  If you decide not to do either of these things, both should probably be scrapped.  This allows you to take 3+ squads (preferably large squads) of death co and lemartes and jump in, shoot away bubble wrap, weather a turn of shooting fairly well (2+/6+++ in cover, a 4++ as well if you use shield of sanguinius), and wreck serious face on the charge. 

 

pistol vs bolter

-I find lately i'm preferring bolter, as it allows your shooting to do some actual damage with extra shots

-longer range, if you cant charge an enemy, you can take pot shots out to 24"

-longer range, if you have an enemy you're easily going to make a charge into and you know you'll butcher in combat, shoot someone else and charge the first

-more shots, if you're dubious if you're going to kill enough on the charge and feel you will easily make the charge, 30 bolter shots from 15 guys will soften a target nicely

-allows your marines to be useful in the first turn instead of trying a crazy suicide deep strike-charge which probably won't pan out well.

-if you're charging an enemy, you're probably killing it in either your turn or the opponents, pistol shots will likely be wasted

-free upgrade, i see very little reason to not take it

 

-true grit marines--certified dank

 

---

 

as i stated in the opening, i still lean toward them being underpowered, however, at a rate of a stormbolter per guy over a vanguard vet, i think they may be decent.  Many people like to latch on to the 6+++, and while it's not going to really save you, it can occasionally come in nice.  For each guy it DOES save, you save effectively 10 stormbolters of points, which means even one or two in a squad pay the points dividend, in my mind, and it can be taken vs mortal wounds.

 

tl;dr, vets with hammer and shields kill monsters, death co with bolters and chainswords (and maybe some power weapons or an odd hammer) butcher lighter infantry and hordes.  sanguinary guard assassinate characters and guard commanders.  assault marines carry meltas.  company vets carry plasmas.

[Crimson Ghost IX]

By Dank I hope you mean smegging awesome man. =)

 

Great write up and many great points.

While I miss their previous 5++ the way it used to work I do like their new lower cost and look forward to what the codex brings.

They are not remotely trash but also not auto-take either.

 

A couple further notes on DC. (not especially advice just notes).

- Max squad size 15

- Jump packs cost 1 point more than VV.

- Consider them in vehicles also - great counter charge unit etc.

- Lemartes is the man, but doesn't have to be THE ONLY man. Think on Astorath and even Ancients etc to also help with Leadership 7 and buffs etc.

- Consider them always as they are a signature unit.

 

I like mine currently with more than half bolter and chainswords. Some powerweapons and chainswords.

And a Hammer... because that running two handed hammer looks... dank (-er smegging awesome man=))

 

I like them worked into my force but not as my primary unit type currently.

[durdle-durdle]

I had been taking them as 5-man units to fill my assbacks, so if anyone got close, they could jump out and defend the razor, but I tend to find 5-man's a little too small for fighting anything that can actual handle a charge at all. I haven't actually changed my guys to bolters yet, I've just been proxying, as I'm worried it may become an illegal loading or something.

 

It's a good point you bring about astorath. I think if I were to bring another hq, it would probably be either a Libby for shield/rage or a sang priest. I would shy away from it though, as I feel at that point, you're investing too many points to try and make one type of unit work (unless You're taking a brigade detatchment or additional detatchment and needed another hq anyways).

 

Death company were the thing that drew me to blood angels (and fast tanks, rip), so I always include them, no matter what.

[sockwithaticket]

I haven't actually changed my guys to bolters yet, I've just been proxying, as I'm worried it may become an illegal loading or something.

 

Since bolters actually come in the Death Company box (with saltires aplenty on the hands and weapons) I'd be amazed if bolter DC were ever made a redundant load out.

 

[neonmole]

It's been interesting following this forum, as the general consensus seems to be that death company are a really awful unit in 8th.

 

Granted, I am a newcomer to BA, and returning player in 8th (though I have a ton of experience in 40k), this has not been my expierience.

 

In my games I have been using units of 5 DC with jump packs, equipped with 2 powerswords, 1 TH, and 2 chainswords. I am also using Lemartes (who himself is an absolute beast) and I have found these units to be excellent for 128pts. With a couple of these you have a great opportunity to secure turn 1 charges using a combination of Lemartes charge re-rolls, or command points (obviously not together), and find this extremely valuable. You can seriously disrupt your opponent, and they hit extremely hard.

 

At 2000pts I think 2 or 3 such units, plus Lemartes is a very viable option. Inexpensive, does and a lot of damage, and definitely something your opponent must deal with fast.

[KthuluQball]

Hey all, its great to see everyone's opinion on DC, as they've always been my favorite BA in the fluff and tabletop.

 

My first foray into 8th with a DC heavy list did pretty well. I ran five 5-man squads, two with JPs in Stormravens and 3 squads on foot in Razorbacks.

 

JP unit had a TH and four Power Axes, the other five Power Swords. I used them as a precision assault unit. (Chewed through 3 squads of aspect warriors in one game, and wraithseers in another).

 

Foot sloggers were BP/CS load out for a metric ton of attacks, especially to clear objectives.

 

I rolled a Dante-buffed bubble up the field and used the DC in a counter-offensive role.  Overall, my DC did really well, even against a Brass Scorpion/Magnus/Knight list. 

 

Careful placement, patience and timing on when to pull the trigger is key with DC, imho.

[Indefragable]

Hey all, its great to see everyone's opinion on DC, as they've always been my favorite BA in the fluff and tabletop.

 

My first foray into 8th with a DC heavy list did pretty well. I ran five 5-man squads, two with JPs in Stormravens and 3 squads on foot in Razorbacks.

 

JP unit had a TH and four Power Axes, the other five Power Swords. I used them as a precision assault unit. (Chewed through 3 squads of aspect warriors in one game, and wraithseers in another).

 

Foot sloggers were BP/CS load out for a metric ton of attacks, especially to clear objectives.

 

I rolled a Dante-buffed bubble up the field and used the DC in a counter-offensive role. Overall, my DC did really well, even against a Brass Scorpion/Magnus/Knight list.

 

Careful placement, patience and timing on when to pull the trigger is key with DC, imho.

Sounds like fun. I'm curious to see (general idea) or your opponents' lists.

[Aothaine]

Something I want to point out here is that Chaos Space Marines used to be able to rock Bolter & Chainsword. They can no longer do that and it hurt them. The fact that Death Company can still do it is amazing and is very underrated. I would like to see something similar to below.

 

Vanguard Detatchment

Lemartes + Captain with Jump pack

Three full squads of DC with Bolter/Chainsword/Jump pack

 

Vanguard Detatchment

Captain (babysit predators)

Captain (babysit predators)

 

Predators x6 (Pred Auto Cannon + 2 Lascannon)

 

Not sure what this list would come out to but it would be pretty scary if it fit into 2000. I don't have my index with me. But dropping 45 Death company with Captain & Lemartes support on your opponent's flank on turn one. 90 bolter shots at 3+(reroll 1s). Scary stuff.

Edited September 5, 2017 by Aothaine

[KthuluQball]

 

Hey all, its great to see everyone's opinion on DC, as they've always been my favorite BA in the fluff and tabletop.

 

My first foray into 8th with a DC heavy list did pretty well. I ran five 5-man squads, two with JPs in Stormravens and 3 squads on foot in Razorbacks.

 

JP unit had a TH and four Power Axes, the other five Power Swords. I used them as a precision assault unit. (Chewed through 3 squads of aspect warriors in one game, and wraithseers in another).

 

Foot sloggers were BP/CS load out for a metric ton of attacks, especially to clear objectives.

 

I rolled a Dante-buffed bubble up the field and used the DC in a counter-offensive role. Overall, my DC did really well, even against a Brass Scorpion/Magnus/Knight list.

 

Careful placement, patience and timing on when to pull the trigger is key with DC, imho.

Sounds like fun. I'm curious to see (general idea) or your opponents' lists.

 

It was a 3 round local ITC tourney. Our meta is very competitive, which is good in many ways because it really motivates me to play smarter and better, no matter what list I take.

 

1st game was pretty one sided against a Craftworld Aspect Host soup. One of each AH and wave serpents. Not optimized to a competitive level plus a handful of mistakes swung it in my direction. I felt bad about the steamroll but we had a great discussion of the game afterwards.

 

Game 2 was against a Greater Brass Scorpion, Magnus, Kytan Ravager, Kharne and some 'Zerkers. He seized on me, pushed Magnus up super aggressively and stripped wounds off Stormravens and Assault Cannon Razorbacks. I had all my DC in vehicles, Lascannon Dev squad in ruins, Dante and Priest bubbled with vehicles and a Culexus waiting in deep strike. Turn 1 I smoked Magnus and stripped wounds from the Kytan, all thanks to the Dante-ball. I ended up losing, but it was a soft loss. My mistakes were charging the Kytan too early and piecemeal to boot. The Brass Scorpion I just ignored and bit down on something, lol. Arguably one of the best games of 40k I've ever played.

 

Game 3 was against Craftworlds. I don't remember quite what all he had, but a couple of wraithseers, fire prisms (I think), D-cannon wraithguard and maxed squads of guardians with heavy platforms. We both rolled cold all game, to the point of comedy. Again, mistakes were made on my part in target selection and assumptions that my dice would eventually warm up (spoiler: they don't!) but I pulled out a win.

 

Me and the Khorne guy tied for 5th out of 24 players. 

 

No idea how I'll fare against a typical Bobby G list or hordes. Hopefully I'll get to test that out this weekend for our next monthly tourney.

[Indefragable]

 

 

 

Hey all, its great to see everyone's opinion on DC, as they've always been my favorite BA in the fluff and tabletop.

 

My first foray into 8th with a DC heavy list did pretty well. I ran five 5-man squads, two with JPs in Stormravens and 3 squads on foot in Razorbacks.

 

JP unit had a TH and four Power Axes, the other five Power Swords. I used them as a precision assault unit. (Chewed through 3 squads of aspect warriors in one game, and wraithseers in another).

 

Foot sloggers were BP/CS load out for a metric ton of attacks, especially to clear objectives.

 

I rolled a Dante-buffed bubble up the field and used the DC in a counter-offensive role. Overall, my DC did really well, even against a Brass Scorpion/Magnus/Knight list.

 

Careful placement, patience and timing on when to pull the trigger is key with DC, imho.

Sounds like fun. I'm curious to see (general idea) or your opponents' lists.

It was a 3 round local ITC tourney. Our meta is very competitive, which is good in many ways because it really motivates me to play smarter and better, no matter what list I take.

 

1st game was pretty one sided against a Craftworld Aspect Host soup. One of each AH and wave serpents. Not optimized to a competitive level plus a handful of mistakes swung it in my direction. I felt bad about the steamroll but we had a great discussion of the game afterwards.

 

Game 2 was against a Greater Brass Scorpion, Magnus, Kytan Ravager, Kharne and some 'Zerkers. He seized on me, pushed Magnus up super aggressively and stripped wounds off Stormravens and Assault Cannon Razorbacks. I had all my DC in vehicles, Lascannon Dev squad in ruins, Dante and Priest bubbled with vehicles and a Culexus waiting in deep strike. Turn 1 I smoked Magnus and stripped wounds from the Kytan, all thanks to the Dante-ball. I ended up losing, but it was a soft loss. My mistakes were charging the Kytan too early and piecemeal to boot. The Brass Scorpion I just ignored and bit down on something, lol. Arguably one of the best games of 40k I've ever played.

 

Game 3 was against Craftworlds. I don't remember quite what all he had, but a couple of wraithseers, fire prisms (I think), D-cannon wraithguard and maxed squads of guardians with heavy platforms. We both rolled cold all game, to the point of comedy. Again, mistakes were made on my part in target selection and assumptions that my dice would eventually warm up (spoiler: they don't!) but I pulled out a win.

 

Me and the Khorne guy tied for 5th out of 24 players.

 

No idea how I'll fare against a typical Bobby G list or hordes. Hopefully I'll get to test that out this weekend for our next monthly tourney.

Sounds good. Well done!

[Riot Earp]

 

 

Hey all, its great to see everyone's opinion on DC, as they've always been my favorite BA in the fluff and tabletop.

 

My first foray into 8th with a DC heavy list did pretty well. I ran five 5-man squads, two with JPs in Stormravens and 3 squads on foot in Razorbacks.

 

JP unit had a TH and four Power Axes, the other five Power Swords. I used them as a precision assault unit. (Chewed through 3 squads of aspect warriors in one game, and wraithseers in another).

 

Foot sloggers were BP/CS load out for a metric ton of attacks, especially to clear objectives.

 

I rolled a Dante-buffed bubble up the field and used the DC in a counter-offensive role. Overall, my DC did really well, even against a Brass Scorpion/Magnus/Knight list.

 

Careful placement, patience and timing on when to pull the trigger is key with DC, imho.

Sounds like fun. I'm curious to see (general idea) or your opponents' lists.

 

It was a 3 round local ITC tourney. Our meta is very competitive, which is good in many ways because it really motivates me to play smarter and better, no matter what list I take.

 

1st game was pretty one sided against a Craftworld Aspect Host soup. One of each AH and wave serpents. Not optimized to a competitive level plus a handful of mistakes swung it in my direction. I felt bad about the steamroll but we had a great discussion of the game afterwards.

 

Game 2 was against a Greater Brass Scorpion, Magnus, Kytan Ravager, Kharne and some 'Zerkers. He seized on me, pushed Magnus up super aggressively and stripped wounds off Stormravens and Assault Cannon Razorbacks. I had all my DC in vehicles, Lascannon Dev squad in ruins, Dante and Priest bubbled with vehicles and a Culexus waiting in deep strike. Turn 1 I smoked Magnus and stripped wounds from the Kytan, all thanks to the Dante-ball. I ended up losing, but it was a soft loss. My mistakes were charging the Kytan too early and piecemeal to boot. The Brass Scorpion I just ignored and bit down on something, lol. Arguably one of the best games of 40k I've ever played.

 

Game 3 was against Craftworlds. I don't remember quite what all he had, but a couple of wraithseers, fire prisms (I think), D-cannon wraithguard and maxed squads of guardians with heavy platforms. We both rolled cold all game, to the point of comedy. Again, mistakes were made on my part in target selection and assumptions that my dice would eventually warm up (spoiler: they don't!) but I pulled out a win.

 

Me and the Khorne guy tied for 5th out of 24 players. 

 

No idea how I'll fare against a typical Bobby G list or hordes. Hopefully I'll get to test that out this weekend for our next monthly tourney.

 

 

Grats to the good outcome. :)

What was your list in detail? Which vehicles etc?

[Aothaine]

How did DC perform? How were they built?

[KthuluQball]

Culexus Assassin

 

Dante

Sanguinary Priest + Lightning Claw

 

5x DC jump packs + 5x Power Swords

5x DC jump packs + 4x power axes + TH

5x DC pistol/chainsword

5x DC pistol/chainsword

5x DC pistol/chainsword

 

1x Dev Squad 4x Las cannons

 

2x Stormraven + hurricane bolters, multi meltas, assault cannons

 

3x assault cannon razorbacks

 

For the most part, they killed what I wanted them to kill, lol. Outside of some really cold rolling they did well.

Edited September 7, 2017 by KthuluQball

[durdle-durdle]

Culexus Assassin

 

Dante

Sanguinary Priest + Lightning Claw

 

5x DC jump packs + 5x Power Swords

5x DC jump packs + 4x power axes + TH

5x DC pistol/chainsword

5x DC pistol/chainsword

5x DC pistol/chainsword

 

5x Dev Squad 4x Las cannons

 

2x Stormraven + hurricane bolters, multi meltas, assault cannons

 

3x assault cannon razorbacks

Is there any particular reason all your power weapons are consolidated in 2 squads and not spread out?

 

Also, how'd Dante work out for you?

[KthuluQball]

I put the power weapons all in 2 squads to use in a more surgical fashion. That's why I loaded them in Stormravens, so I could deliver them precisely where I wanted, to get that charge. Is it the best way to distribute? Probably not, but I liked having a dedicated anti-whatever squad.

Dante did...okay. Hes a force multiplyer mostly. It took a full second charge from a Berserker squad to actually kill him in game 2.

[Aothaine]

Culexus Assassin

 

Dante

Sanguinary Priest + Lightning Claw

 

5x DC jump packs + 5x Power Swords

5x DC jump packs + 4x power axes + TH

5x DC pistol/chainsword

5x DC pistol/chainsword

5x DC pistol/chainsword

 

5x Dev Squad 4x Las cannons

 

2x Stormraven + hurricane bolters, multi meltas, assault cannons

 

3x assault cannon razorbacks

 

For the most part, they killed what I wanted them to kill, lol. Outside of some really cold rolling they did well.

 

Crazy. 20 lascannons. Did any opponent have a vehicle left after your first turn?

[KthuluQball]

Whoops, not 20 lascannons, just a single 5 man dev squad, haha