Chaos Land Raiders

[SyNidus]

What are everyone's thoughts and experiences with them so far?

[Prot]

I have lost them in turn one... depends on the table. I love them with Deathguard to make them -1 to hit with the psychic ability. But overall I find them really hard to fit because I usually have a very assault oriented Chaos list. The obvious attraction is moving a prescious cargo of asault, while having fantastic anti-super heavy firepower.

 

The Las Pred is darn good though.... really good. So I like to take one of those, and dual Rhino's.

 

If I had a way to make people worry more about something other than the Landraider.... without completely neutering the close combat ability of my list, I would take the Landraider more often.

 

My last Landraider game was about 3 weeks ago with Red Corsairs. It did nothing, and was down to a wound by T3. It's party the fault of my list make up. There's no other truly valid target for lascannon type weapons for my opponents. Stuff like Defilers, etc, is just.... a red herring.

[Cryptix]

Take a Spartan instead, or if your as insane as I am, take a Spartan and 2 Land raiders in a 3000 point game

[The Yncarne]

I took two in a recent 1850 game. Mission was retrieval on a board with much terrain; perhaps 30% blocking LoS to land raiders. If I went with rhinos, they'd have been destroyed and blocked a lot of movement.

 

I used both to transport rubric squads. The first land raider blew up dealing 5 mortal wounds to a rubric squad, a nearby helbrute, and a marine tactical squad.

 

The second land raider rolled on top of an objective preventing my opponent to get within 3". It survived all 5 game turns though it was down to 3 wounds.

 

I can't say "they earned their points back" from a one to one perspective, but they did keep me competitive throughout the game.

 

I agree that a quad las predator will kill more, but split fire is difficult to quantify.

[Mekhitar]

It depends a bit on how big the game is - and how many other targets you have for AT. I ran mine with a rhino and a defiler, and warp times the defiler t1 into my enemy's face. The rhino had 5 zerks and 5 plasma havocs. My enemy chose to target them, rather than the LR which sat in the back.

 

It's good to have redundancy on the LR if it does get targeted. In my case, I had another squad of lascannon havocs, on foot.

 

I play 2000pt games, though, and I think I would be hard pressed to put the LR into games much smaller than that. They are too easily shut down by a chasing rhino, for example.

[techsoldaten]

The Land Raider is good, but other things often are more efficient.

 

I like the Land Raider for delivery, not for offense. I can get 2 Laspreds that outperform it with guns, it's really there to belch out Berzerkers at close range.

 

That said, there's nothing like pulling up in front of a Knight, spitting out 10 Berzerkers, shooting it up with Lascannons, and watching the Berzerkers chop down the rest. Have done this a couple times, it's very demoralizing to opponents. 

[SyNidus]

I was thinking about it because i've got 2 land raiders unpainted. And i'm trying to decide whether or not i'll use them for my GK or NL.

[Goreshed]

And rumor has it that Chapter Approved is going to have VDR again and it's first focus is the land raider so we may finally get some new stuff there.

[intel31337]

From what I heard, the VDR is not meant for matched play. Which is fine, not everyone is super competitive, but it should be pointed out in case people were hoping to use it in tournaments and end up disappointed.

[CptMetal]

VDR?

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Vehicle Design Rules - basically, they allowed people to give rules to their scratchbuilds and conversions that didn't match existing vehicles.

 

The rules were a lot of fun, but also terribly broken.  Be interesting to see how they preserve the former while limiting the latter.

[SyNidus]

Okay so VDR discussions aside, what i gather from this thread is:

Land Raiders are:

- mainly useful for transport

- overpriced

- less efficient than 2 las preds?

 

So i take it...a list with 2 land raiders might not be a great idea?

[the jeske]

It is a better idea then a list with 1 land raider though, for as much as it helps people that want to use them.

[Nym]

As Mekhitar pointed out, Land Raiders biggest drawback is how easily they are to shut down. I've had a unit of 5 Tankbustas shut down a Land Raider CRUSADER for 2 turns (it killed 2 TB on overwatch each turn) by assaulting it. A Chaos Land Raider would have been shut down forever.

 

Land Raiders try to do a lot of things, and end up doing nothing well. They really need a rule to disengage and shoot freely like Knights or most superheavies have.

[Commissar K.]

The use of a Landraider to me completely depends on the rest of your army. For example World Eaters "need it" and I never felt bad about thaking it because a lot of leverage comes out of the Berzerkers. Having 8-10 or plus Khârn arrive pretty much means anything in their charge range gets deleted unless we're talking about Titans and the like.

For most CSM armies I think the Landraider doesn't offer too much power because for most CSM armies Transports arn't too relevant. A large part of this comes forth out of Legion Traits also who in more cases than not have given us a reason to ignore Transports altogether. E.g. Alpha Legion doesn't require Transports due to Stratagem and Legion Trait, hanging back and repositioning works well enough, Black Legion and Emperor's Children don't really need transports because of their Assault weaponry, Thousand Sons and Death Guard don't really need transports because of their resilience and general mid to long ranged combat. Night Legion doesn't really need it as it's very in line with the narrative to thake a lot of Raptors and Warp Talons and in general your Legion trait rewards MSU which is typical in that it loves Razorbacks (which we dont have) but doesn't care for Rhino's and Landraiders...

So all in all I blieve the Land Raider will do much more for your Grey Knights as Night Lords. The prime reason for this comes forth out of what I expect the GK army to look like, which will be more footslogging and melee focussed as Night Lords have to be. A Land Raider isn't bad but you have to make sure you optimize it's functionality completely. If your looking for long ranged anti-tank support, Predators do it better. If your looking for that and transport at the same time the Land Raider is fine.

Edited September 8, 2017 by Commissar K.

[Plaguecaster]

Would be awesome if chaos got a crusader style transport, I'm so jealous of those loyalists for having an cool anti infantry raider capable of transporting a few more guys inside compared to the normal one

[OnboardG1]

Would be awesome if chaos got a crusader style transport, I'm so jealous of those loyalists for having an cool anti infantry raider capable of transporting a few more guys inside compared to the normal one

 

I'd just like to be able to carry the TermiLord with his entourage rather than having to chuck private fatarse out before the batle starts to make room for the boss.

[Goreshed]

I've used my landraider a few times and it worked fairly well. But it is a sponge for incoming fire which is why I may grab another one. That being said at 19 points a piece that tactic of using two of them would be reserved for the higher point games.

 

Can a tank be shut down in combat? Sure. Any of them can though (baring Knights/superheavies) and if you don't support your tanks with other units to either 1) take the charge or 2) deny a charge against the tank then you aren't doing yourself any favors.

[Panzer]

I've used my landraider a few times and it worked fairly well. But it is a sponge for incoming fire which is why I may grab another one. That being said at 19 points a piece that tactic of using two of them would be reserved for the higher point games.

Dunno man....at 19 points a piece I'd play a few more I think. :D

[The Yncarne]

I will continue to use two land raiders for Rubric transports until my decimators and contemptor arrive and are painted.

[chillin]

I have tried to use LR twice, both times dead or severely crippled by end of turn 2 .

I have tried to use LR twice, both times dread or severely crippled by end of turn 2 .

Edited September 19, 2017 by chillin

[Khornestar]

Land Raider + 10 Berzerkers = 28 PL

 

Rhino + 10 Berzerkers = 13 PL

 

Can have twice as many Berzerkers in passably resilient transports and still have 2 PL to spare. Combi-weapons can add some shooting that occasionally matters.

 

I'm sure there are armies that can blow up both Rhinos before they get to do anything, but they're probably the same lists that can blow up a land raider. I'd rather have more Berzerkers in play, so I don't think I ever have a reason to use my land raider.

[Mekhitar]

I recently played a game where the raider died t1 - but it took most of my opponent's AT to do it. The stranded zerks were shot up and none ever made it into cc.

 

However, I had armor redundancy, and none of the 3 predators I also took were wrecked - though one did get severely wounded - leading to an eventual victory on t4.

 

(This was a 3000pt game.)

[ChainMachete]

Land Raider + 10 Berzerkers = 28 PL

 

Rhino + 10 Berzerkers = 13 PL

 

Can have twice as many Berzerkers in passably resilient transports and still have 2 PL to spare. Combi-weapons can add some shooting that occasionally matters.

 

I'm sure there are armies that can blow up both Rhinos before they get to do anything, but they're probably the same lists that can blow up a land raider. I'd rather have more Berzerkers in play, so I don't think I ever have a reason to use my land raider.

 

Or:

Spartan + 10 Berzerkers = 30 PL

Spartan + 2 x 10 Berzerkers = 39 PL

 

 

Two more power levels gives you twice the number of lascannon shots, a transport capacity 25 (so  plenty of room for Khârn) and better durability. Be rude not to use it in preference to standard Land Radider really. Cost difference is more significant if you're talking points rather than power levels though.

[Sception]

The chaos land raider is much better than it used to be.  The changes to how twin linked weapons work, the ability to move and fire all its weapons, to fire both sponsons at the same target even if positioning makes that infeasible, and to fire the heavy bolters at a separate target from the lascannons all help considerably, as does the increased durability compared to previous editions.  Yes, it's more expensive, but the various improvements all more than make up for that.

 

But while it's considerably better than previous editions, it was so bad in previous editions that being better doesn't necessarily make it good.  Its transport capacity is painfully cramped.  Even 12 would have been ok, but at 10 you can't even field standard minimum unit configurations (5 termies or 2x5 power armored infantry) plus a character.  And while it's much tougher than it was, it still isn't going to shrug off an entire army's anti-tank firepower on its own in standard game sizes.  You can maybe make a lone land raider work at 1k or 1.5k points, but if you're fielding 2k points or more, you really can't field just one land raider and expect it to do much.  As Jeske mentioned, two land raiders can work.  Or a land raider and something even bigger & more threatening - like a lord of skulls or renegade knight or daemon primarch.

 

 

I would definitely proxy it a couple times before investing in one.  Try running one, and then try running two, before you commit to buying any.

 

Re: getting locked in combat.  IMO, that's what the transport capacity is for.  Even more than delivering offensive units, it's to carry a screen around to deploy when melee units get close and threaten to jam your guns.  10 cultists can provide a sufficient delay while the land raider itself drives away, happily shooting to full effect at the same time.

 

That shooting to full effect while moving is a big deal, and one of the main reasons I'm not keen to trade the land raider for the considerably more expensive (because where I am everyone /does/ play with points and not power rating) spartan.  Unlike the loyalist version, the spartan suffers move & fire penalties with its heavy weapons, which significantly impairs its ability to perform its transport and fire support roles in concert.  Instead it gets the helforged rule, which frankly is more penalty than advantage on a gun tank.  The doubled firepower and transport capacity is great, but I absolutely don't like paying extra points to trade a good rule for a handicap.