The best way for Grey Knights to deal with Mortarion?

[Adeptus]

If you're hiding a super combat monster with a kick-ass aura that kills enemy models deep inside the rest of your army, then I think you're already at a steep disadvantage. Mortarion isn't doing anyone any good hiding back there.

[Godeskian]

Fair point.

 

So hide him one inch behind a line of poxwalkers then. You've lost a about two inches of forward deployment, and have effectively neutered the grey knight anti mortarion alpha strike. Heck, throw in the bell dude that let's the poxwalkers move twice and you can with only a little luck negate the beta strike too.

 

I think everyone is being incredibly optimistic about their ability to bring five units to bear on Mortarion for psychic shenanigans

[Captain Coolpants]

I think he's actually a difficult unit to use for the DG. All DG are slow, and he's moving 12". So he's either going to fly up with some rhinos and we smite him to death(seriously,3 damage smites will ruin him) if we don't teleport everything.

or he stays behind in line with his cronies, but then risks getting picked apart from a distance by ravens, dreads other fire.

 

Plus he's almost the same power level as a wraithknight, which costs over 500pts.

[Waking Dreamer]

Does Magnus have a Power lvl of 24? I think he is only 400+ points.

[Danarc]

Actually I'm wondering about a BC in list not to beat DG only but to double the aura of the relic banner. But I need more points. 

 

I don't think that Morty will bring the head of the assault. Even if he is strong in cac and could vaporise every little unit within 7", he need a defence, and some pox walker could be a cheap one. then during his movement phase he will stomp on them (:D) and kill everything within 7". In particular if you bring your GK at 9".

[Gerhard]

In this discussion, we have to assume positioning. A good player would deploy in such a way that deepstriking is difficult if not impossible, except for the places where he or she would want us to deploy. With a lot of small units, it is not very difficult to deploy in such a way that (at least in the first turn, and maybe the second) deepstriking on preferred targets is made impossible.

 

That said, I would just shoot him, repeatedly, with the most heavy stuff that could hit him.

 

If the opponent deploys wrong and hes targettable by squads deepstriking then the suggested smite spam is of course the way to go. I do find that very unlikely.

[Seizeman]

As some already said, death guard is a really slow army, with a movement value of 4" or 5". If mortarion decides to hide behind their units, then he's doing nothing and wasting his 400+ points of close combat power. The opponent must play aggressively with him, so he becomes vulnerable.

[Trevak Dal]

Driago shows up and Morty says "Oh geeze" and runs off the table?

[Godeskian]

As some already said, death guard is a really slow army, with a movement value of 4" or 5". If mortarion decides to hide behind their units, then he's doing nothing and wasting his 400+ points of close combat power. The opponent must play aggressively with him, so he becomes vulnerable.

The Death Guard have at least one power that let's poxwalkers move and advance twice, so you can move mortarion up safely if you so choose. I need to check if it's a psychic ability or not, because it may be deniable

[Danarc]

with 9" interdicted area even small units have difficulties to DS. 3 units of pox walker in averted of a triangle with 6" side create a huge create a huge interdiction field in which they can deploy other units that will not be targetable by smite because there is always other units more near. Other IC will be less targetable too.

 

But it doesn't matter. Draigo wrote the name of former SGM in Morty heart so he can do it again. I will deploy him near Morty and write on him with Titan Pen.

And remember the pen is (S)mighter than the sword.

Edited September 6, 2017 by Danarc

[Helycon]

Does Magnus have a Power lvl of 24? I think he is only 400+ points.

Magnus is ridiculously undercosted I feel. He's relatively OK to deal with for GK's due to the amount of psychic powers they can throw around and deplete his denies, after that you do 3D per smite. If you don't have the option for mortal wounds, he is a massive pain to kill, and pretty much impossible to ignore due to the carnage he wreaks. He's insanely fast too, with Warp Time, making turn 1 charges relatively easy. He then kills everything he touches.

 

I reckon Mortarion will be resilient in a slightly different way due to his 5+++, but his invulnerable is nowhere near as good and he'll not be able to deny as easy. Magnus is much tougher to deal with.

Edited September 6, 2017 by Helycon

[Seizeman]

Magnus was fine before the codex release, but with the new powers and stratagems he's just unhealthy. A 3++ rerollable or even 2++ is just ridiculous. I think 2++ saves or rerollable saves should not exist in the game in any form.

 

There's several characters that need a price increase, like Celestine, Culexus, Guilliman and Magnus, but I don't think they are going to change them until december.

[Helycon]

I think part of the issue for Magnus is that the Thousand Sons codex isn't here yet. If he loses access to the Dark Hereticus discipline and Chaos Marine stratagems, he'll be a lot more balanced. I fully agree about the invulnerable saves though. That's why I feel Mortarion is scary, but nowhere near as unbalanced as Magnus. He should be a staple in any Death Guard army, but still killable enough that people won't feel he's too strong. 

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Another tool which I'm probably gonna start including in my lists is an allied Terminator Librarian with Veil, Null Zone and Might of Heroes (taking Tome for the relic). You can do it without CP penalty by taking a Patrol detachment (Scout tax gives you another drop and might snipe a weak character, so its not too bad).

 

With Veil on the Libby you can get charges fairly reliably off Teleport Strike, and with a storm shield he'll survive the Primarch/most units shooting him. Then charge GK units to apply the damage to finish him off (I wouldn't expect to kill either Magnus or Morty with Smite spam, but you'll likely weaken them both with it sufficiently). Same strategy can be applied to Wulfen, Stormhammers, etc. With the invul turned off, they'll need clutch armour saves to not die, or their 'ignore damage' rule. 

 

I think Null Zone is a really underrated power. There are a lot of strong invul saves in the game right now, and the power also shuts down psykers very reliably. I can forsee Marine armies taking it to fight our Grandmaster DK's (who are largely unstoppable otherwise due to 'Sanctuary' and 'Heed' shenanigans). 

[Seizeman]

Even with veil of time, the chance for a successfull charge is less than 50%, and the opponent will most likely have a chance to deny it. Also, what do you need might of heroes for? It's not useful on any of our characters, and the librarian can only cast two powers per turn anyway.

 

Even then, you will only be able to attack with one unit before he gets his save back. As soon as your first unit strikes, the opponent will use counter-offensive stratagem and crush your librarian, ending null zone's effect, which  needs to be cast with an 8 and not be denied on the first place.

 

You are paying 157 point for it and at least 165 more for the scouts. For that price you can take an additional stormraven, or 3 apothecaries, or 3 strike squads, or something else that would be infinitely most useful agains Mortarion and everything else.

 

Also, we don't know Mortarion's points cost or how good he's in melee, so it is too soon to start worrying.

[Prot]

Another tool which I'm probably gonna start including in my lists is an allied Terminator Librarian with Veil, Null Zone and Might of Heroes (taking Tome for the relic). You can do it without CP penalty by taking a Patrol detachment (Scout tax gives you another drop and might snipe a weak character, so its not too bad).

 

I think Null Zone is a really underrated power. There are a lot of strong invul saves in the game right now, and the power also shuts down psykers very reliably. I can forsee Marine armies taking it to fight our Grandmaster DK's (who are largely unstoppable otherwise due to 'Sanctuary' and 'Heed' shenanigans). 

 

While I really do like Null Zone, and I use it frequently, I don't see it being big against DG. I have a feeling their resilience rule is going to be adjustable/buffable in some ways we haven't seen yet. Now we know they can get up to T6, and can become 'invisible' (really strange to me that GW put that back in the game).  I see those combined with "fnp" as a bigger problem.

 

My personal advice would be to stack on the Damage weapons. Hit as much as you can with high D.  Force the DG player to roll multiple resilience rolls for very 'wound' you do.... the math should catch up.

What I don't know about is all this mortal wound stuff coming from aura's, and Mort as well... These are devastating to an army that is expensive and wants to be very close to its opponent.

 

Until that happens though, I prefer high Damage weapons even now, pre codex.

[Gentlemanloser]

And let's not forget a model can use all the different forms of 'FnP' they have together.

 

If Morty only has access to one disgustingly resilient FnP save, I'll be surprised.

[Seizeman]

Well, unique characters can't take relics or choose a warlor trait, and 5 of the 6 death guard psychic powers don't affect FNP, so I don't think it will be possible for mortarion to have more than one.

[Gentlemanloser]

I'd be surprised if his scythe doesn't give wounds back for kills in cc, or buff his fnp.

 

I know theres a lot of old school relentless in the army. Anyone know if any of the characters have auras that buff fnp?

[Waking Dreamer]

So more stats on Mortarion:

 

470 Points

 

The Lantern: Range 18", Pistol 1, AP-3, Damage 3

- Special ability : Draw a straight line from Mortarion to your target, each unit under that line are also hit.

 

Silence - choose either melee profile below:

- Eviscerating Blow: Sx2 (S16), AP-4, Damage D6

- Reaping Scythe: S User (S8), AP-2, Damage 1 (preform 3 attacks for every base attack Mortarion has)

[Waking Dreamer]

Potentially, even at his weakest damage tier (~4W), he could cut down a 10-man Strike Squad in melee alone with his Reaping Scythe ability (4 base attacks x3 = 12 attacks).

[Gentlemanloser]

That pistol rule looks off.

 

You have to shoot the closest unit. So there will be no other units under the line.

 

It's not possible.

 

Edit. Unless it's only a penalty to friendly units...

Edited September 9, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Beams]

You don't have to shoot the closet jnit with a pistol.

[Prot]

Yup I was right..... I just found out they have a special elite single model unit of some kind of twisted Apothecary with a small aura of allowing rerolls of 1 for DR.

 

It doesn't take a genius to figure that out but I still think the big key is hitting hard with Damage 2+ shots. Getting close to these guys unfortunately plays into strength. However a large part of what GK do is also close and personal.

 

I'm assuming Mortarion has Fly which takes a strong answer off the table: Stormraven.

 

In early turns, I know from playing Magnus, you'll have to be conservative or he'll mount that flyer and wreck it for good and use it for movement bonus to get into you quicker.

 

A stormraven is still a good option, but the angle of approach has to be very different.

 

At the end of the day this just might turn into a Smite grudge match.

[Waking Dreamer]

 

That pistol rule looks off.

 

You have to shoot the closest unit. So there will be no other units under the line.

 

It's not possible.

 

Edit. Unless it's only a penalty to friendly units...

You don't have to shoot the closet jnit with a pistol.

 

True. I think that's why his pistol range at 18" is unusually longer than normal. I think he can even pseudo-snipe characters with that ability. With carefully positioning he can actually shoot at the Ancient/BroCap/GM you thought was safe right in the middle of 2 or 3 strike squads. Morty can target the unit (eg. the strike squad) further away, behind the GK character and as long as those 2 GK units line up with him (and presumably the GK unit in front of the GK character you thought would be screening him), he will be hitting the Character with an AP-3 damage 3 shot.

Edited September 9, 2017 by Waking Dreamer