Primaris. Can we compete without them?

[Stemplar]

Brothers, I have signed up for my first ever tournament. Pretty excited ... but:

 

I have no Primaris marines because I just can't get my head around fitting them in to my fluff.

 

Question: can an army of BT marines with as much firepower as I can fit into 1500 points compete with lists that will undoubtedly be Primaris heavy?

 

(Sidenote: I might make an exception for Rievers)

[Brother Christopher]

I say, yes - you can. From the entire Primaris range only Hellblasters, with their pay-to-win plasma guns and low point cost, seem to be really nasty. Just make sure you take a lot of weapons that can deal 2 damage if you're expecting to face Primaris. Grav Cannons in Crusader Squads should work quite reliably. Also some Devastators with at least one Plasma Cannon for the reliable overcharge shots (with the Sword Brother providing on-the-spot OHS training to ensure that the cannon does not blow in the wielder's face).

 

I'd really like to see your list, too. And of course hear how you fare with a true Space Marine force.

 

What I feel really drags a competitive Black Templar army down is our Chapter Tactics (which doesn't provide any reliable buff) and lack of psychers.

[CrystalSeer]

Primaris honestly aren't that competitive. You should be fine.

[JAG Templar]

its interesting that you consider Primaris to be so competitive, I'm guessing it's probably a reflection of your local meta.

 

Space marine things that are good include Stormravens, Gulliman (but just. no), MSU with Assault Cannon Razorbacks, sometimes sniper scouts. Crusaders with chainswords, helped out by Helbrecht and EC are borderline competitive, which is nice for us :)

 

'Good' armies generate a lot of mortal wounds, which currently means lots of cheap Psykers that can do Smite or mini smite. Not an option for us.

 

I'm currently working on a small Imperium detachment that has assassins and inquisitors. It might not be palatable to the old and bold Templars on here but it's required in order to survive!

[Gendo]

I'm finally having some convincing success across the board with my fluffy list, didn't play with Primaris nor do i plan to but i'd think unless you go for a competitive list (which is a shooty blob in your deployment) you'll be fine with the Emperor's finest.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

Might I recommend Stormravens and Plasma Spam... also Cenobyte Servitors if you're planning on running a mob of Crusaders... if not, then don't bother... the lack of Primaris can almost be easily negated if you brought Assault Terminators, which imho, does the job better than reivers...

[Stemplar]

As long as they're not overpowered for the points I guess everything is fine, right?

 

Pre tournament (late October) I'm trying all sorts of things - drop pods and deep striking and lots of crusader squads. I played against Primaris last week and won pretty well, but that was against someone even newer than me.

 

The Stormraven is a must have. It's been a beast in every game so far! Today I'm trying a Vindicare Assassin and EC to deal with Psykers and Characters with decent buffs.

 

I'm really just wanting to learn, but was also not wanting to look like an idiot turning up with a knife to a gunfight.

[Honda]

My experiences playing with Primaris are:

 

1. Hellblasters are awesome. 30" plasma that doesn't blow up is great.

2. Lieutenants are great to have sprinkled around. Not awesome, but very solid.

3. Intercessors are surprisingly resilient.

 

Given all that, I would rate the Primaris as very dependable, but not flashy.

 

So an opponent that is able to get you to make mistakes and play consistently, will probably give you a hard time. They don't have what I would call "tricks", but they can punish you if you go all "school girl" on them.

 

Now I don't have any experience with or against Repulsors or the dreadnought. I hear that the Repulsors kick out a lot of firepower and the dreads are powerful, but not necessarily cost effective.

[Brother_Gneecapper]

I say, yes - you can. From the entire Primaris range only Hellblasters, with their pay-to-win plasma guns and low point cost, seem to be really nasty. Just make sure you take a lot of weapons that can deal 2 damage if you're expecting to face Primaris. Grav Cannons in Crusader Squads should work quite reliably. Also some Devastators with at least one Plasma Cannon for the reliable overcharge shots (with the Sword Brother providing on-the-spot OHS training to ensure that the cannon does not blow in the wielder's face).

 

I'd really like to see your list, too. And of course hear how you fare with a true Space Marine force.

 

What I feel really drags a competitive Black Templar army down is our Chapter Tactics (which doesn't provide any reliable buff) and lack of psychers.

 

 

The lack of psykers thing becomes more and more apparent as each new codex releases with a list of very powerful abilities for psykers. If we got a relic like Khorne which allows for easy blocking I wouldn't really have an issue but blocking one psychic power a psychic phase for 1 CP just doesn't seem to be enough of a trade off. 

[Honda]

The lack of psykers thing becomes more and more apparent as each new codex releases with a list of very powerful abilities for psykers. If we got a relic like Khorne which allows for easy blocking I wouldn't really have an issue but blocking one psychic power a psychic phase for 1 CP just doesn't seem to be enough of a trade off.

 

 

*cough, Culexus, *cough

[Stemplar]

My experiences playing with Primaris are:

 

1. Hellblasters are awesome. 30" plasma that doesn't blow up is great.

2. Lieutenants are great to have sprinkled around. Not awesome, but very solid.

3. Intercessors are surprisingly resilient.

 

Given all that, I would rate the Primaris as very dependable, but not flashy.

 

So an opponent that is able to get you to make mistakes and play consistently, will probably give you a hard time. They don't have what I would call "tricks", but they can punish you if you go all "school girl" on them.

 

Now I don't have any experience with or against Repulsors or the dreadnought. I hear that the Repulsors kick out a lot of firepower and the dreads are powerful, but not necessarily cost effective.

I have a Redemptor Dreadnought and it attracts a lot of attention which can be good for everyone else on the board. But it does quickly. Same when I played against one the other day. Killed it off first turn with my Stormraven.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

mortal Wounds from Smite wouldn't be that much of an issue, if the wounds didn't spill over to other members of the squad..

[Kontakt]

 

I have a Redemptor Dreadnought and it attracts a lot of attention which can be good for everyone else on the board. But it does quickly. Same when I played against one the other day. Killed it off first turn with my Stormraven.

 

The redemptor is extremely cheap for the amount of dakka it gives. Honestly, I'd take 2.

 

Having played with intercessors, the range is nice, the ap -1 is nice, but the cost is not frugal to me. Hellblasters will likely be targeted down, so I prefer storm trooper command squads for the deep strike plasma. My experience so far has seen more success with large numbers of crusaders, than with taller marines with fewer weapons.

[Schlitzaf]

I've not played a game for about a month sense I came to college. But I just wanted to echo what others have said. Having been using Intercessors, and Reivars as core parts of my army they have a couple things going for them. But they are not replacements nor are they necessary for us to be competitive.

 

The classic 6-4 Crusader Squad for example is still a fine mid-field fire support unit. Even if Intercessors come in at around 42 points point less, aren't better necessary better than a 6-4 Crusader Squad.

 

The 6-4 Squad comes with a MeltaGun about to deal with Heavy Tanks more reliably. However what the Intercessors lack in damage they make up for in their ability to project fire power. At 30" range and rapid 15. A 5 man Squad puts out 10 shots thinning down opposing hordes.

 

Then once combat is joined they add around 8-11ish extra attacks. Which an equivalent pointded 5-3 Crusader Squad puts 11-15ish attack. (Both units put out the same number of PowWeapon Attacks) Your essentially giving up two wounds and ability to project damage at range for three more attacks. And less vulnerability to high damage weapons. And nominally being easier to hide.

 

Reivars are honestly more complicated. Given they are most akin to Scouts. And fulfill a very similar role in the army. But as with Intercessors they are not replacment for the units and you can use Scout/Assault Marines and wouldn't be much worse in either direction.

 

The Primaris Marines are support Units, not replacement units for the Emperor/Old Marines. They have similar roles to some units but those same roles can be double up on or shared. If you don't want Primaris you don't lose out on anything.

[Brother_Gneecapper]

 

The lack of psykers thing becomes more and more apparent as each new codex releases with a list of very powerful abilities for psykers. If we got a relic like Khorne which allows for easy blocking I wouldn't really have an issue but blocking one psychic power a psychic phase for 1 CP just doesn't seem to be enough of a trade off.

 

 

*cough, Culexus, *cough

 

 

 

Ya allies seems to be the only option to give the Templars the power they need to be on par with other armies. I was hoping to avoid that as I like being a pure Templar force since that is what I have fielded for over 15 years now. It just seems to be in the current rules GW is forcing me to play "Imperial".

[Honda]

Ya allies seems to be the only option to give the Templars the power they need to be on par with other armies. I was hoping to avoid that as I like being a pure Templar force since that is what I have fielded for over 15 years now. It just seems to be in the current rules GW is forcing me to play "Imperial".

 

 

I think this is a fair point.

 

At the same time when I look at the "tops lists" posted from events, I don't see pure lists form other codexes (which most are not out yet). I see lots of lists cobbled together with allies (e.g. Knights) and somehow our one codex is supposed to be able to deal with any list no matter what.

 

It seems like an unrealistic expectation. "Other" people get to cherry pick, but us, we have to stick with our one book. Let's face it, tournaments almost get to play with the WW II equivalent of German tanks, Russian or British infantry and American aircraft. Of course any other one nation would struggle against that.

 

Now, I'm not an advocate of the same approach, In fact, I play my Templars pretty straight up because I think we have the tools to do what needs to be done, outside of tournament scene.

 

If you want to play tournaments, then you may have to adjust..

[Castellan Doren]

So far the only primaris to impress me is the plasma unit. And the vehicles. There's so much firepower in them for the points cost.

 

But like everything we adjust. I came back to relax, paint, convert, and have fun. But the tourney level players are kinda forcing me back into that style of play.

 

So far only my wallet is suffering. But soon if they keep up they all will.

[Cobalt13]

I haven't read their rules but would Sisters of Silence be a good anti psychic unit? They're the only other thing I can think of aside from the Culexus Edited September 8, 2017 by Cobalt13

[Firepower]

I have no intention of expanding to allies, personally.  I'm sure that's an earth shattering surprise to all of you. ;)

 

I also don't have any intention of bringing Primaris into my army.  

 

There is a big difference between those two issues.  A puritanical Templar (redundant?) list void of allies to fill our tactical blindspots and shortcomings will struggle.  A Templar army without Primaris isn't put at any huge, or particularly notable disadvantage; they do the same jobs our other units do in slightly different, but not exactly superior ways.  Disadvantages we face are an issue of balance between our options and the whole of the armies in 40k.  Insulated to within our dex, Primaris are pretty well balanced to proper marines.

[Gerhard]

Honestly, I feel real competitive play is only possible on the highest level if you take Primaris & Allies. Sure in your local meta and local tournament you can really come a long way without, but it seems all the high-end competitive lists spam either smite, summoning or fliers.

 

The only way for us to deal with that, without proper anti-Psyker is to take Allies.

 

Furthermore, some Primaris units are simply too powerful to ignore. Hellblasters are the prime example here. The damage is just insane for the amount of points.

 

I've accepted that now, and I've added a Grey Knight Supreme Command Detachment to my arsenal and I have to say it is quite strong in combination. It consists of two Grand Master Nemesis Dreadknights, and Grand Master Voldus. This gives me 7 denies per enemy Psyker phase and 7 powers to be used by myself. This costs me 740 points, giving me enough to play around with in the Templar camp and actually add upon the strenghts and weaknesses of the Grey Knights who have no access to Primaris and a variety of Space Marine options. So for example, I also added 10 Hellblasters to the list, because their firepower and survivability is great.

 

I think in the end it falls down to how you get satisfaction from playing the game. Some will like having a pure-fluff army, and thus accept it might not be competitive. Others play to win games and might deviate from the lore. I am the latter one. I picked Templar cause I like them, but I won't shut myself out from other goodies as well if they help me win :-).

[Honda]

I think in the end it falls down to how you get satisfaction from playing the game. Some will like having a pure-fluff army, and thus accept it might not be competitive. Others play to win games and might deviate from the lore. I am the latter one. I picked Templar cause I like them, but I won't shut myself out from other goodies as well if they help me win :-).

 

 

There's a lot of wisdom in the above.

 

Before getting all amped up about what is or what isn't, you really should ask yourself "How do I want to play this game?"

 

The answer should reconcile the choices you make after that because no one choice is better than any other. The choices you make, as stated above, are how you will gain satisfaction.

 

Aren't satified? Make a different choice. Don't complain about the choice you made.

 

That doesn't solve anything nor gain satisfaction.

[Stemplar]

Some awesome responses here... Thanks brothers! The upshot of it all is that I will include an assassin in the list but otherwise play BT pure. Stormraven and LRC full of good Templar ZEAL.

 

If I get my arse handed to me then so be it. I'm a fluff guy. Battle reports to follow!

[Ebon Hand]

I've not played a game for about a month sense I came to college. But I just wanted to echo what others have said. Having been using Intercessors, and Reivars as core parts of my army they have a couple things going for them. But they are not replacements nor are they necessary for us to be competitive.

 

The classic 6-4 Crusader Squad for example is still a fine mid-field fire support unit. Even if Intercessors come in at around 42 points point less, aren't better necessary better than a 6-4 Crusader Squad.

 

The 6-4 Squad comes with a MeltaGun about to deal with Heavy Tanks more reliably. However what the Intercessors lack in damage they make up for in their ability to project fire power. At 30" range and rapid 15. A 5 man Squad puts out 10 shots thinning down opposing hordes.

 

Then once combat is joined they add around 8-11ish extra attacks. Which an equivalent pointded 5-3 Crusader Squad puts 11-15ish attack. (Both units put out the same number of PowWeapon Attacks) Your essentially giving up two wounds and ability to project damage at range for three more attacks. And less vulnerability to high damage weapons. And nominally being easier to hide.

 

Reivars are honestly more complicated. Given they are most akin to Scouts. And fulfill a very similar role in the army. But as with Intercessors they are not replacment for the units and you can use Scout/Assault Marines and wouldn't be much worse in either direction.

 

The Primaris Marines are support Units, not replacement units for the Emperor/Old Marines. They have similar roles to some units but those same roles can be double up on or shared. If you don't want Primaris you don't lose out on anything.

What do you mean by a 6-4 crusader squad and a 5-3 crusader squad?  I'm unfamiliar with these terms... are you saying 6 initiate 4 neophyte and 5 initiate 3 neophyte?

 

I have to admit I have been struggling to find a go to setup for my Crusader squads.  I have ended up either forgoing special weapons and going for a melee weapon in the squad or making it a shooting squad with a special / heavy weapon, but taking them as minimum size units hasn't done well from me.  I'm currently thinking of ditching shooty crusaders altogether and making those squads Devastators instead (perhaps with just 2 heavy weapons to save points and still have small units with ablative wounds).  I'm definitely open to trying new things with them.

[Schlitzaf]

When I say 6-4, I mean 6 Initaites, 4 Neophytes, and 5-3 is Initaites and 3 Neophytes, so on and so forth

[Stemplar]

Rievers. Seriously like the models. Really thinking they'd be a good fit for BT.