Competitive Raven Guard / Raptors Thoughts

[ghost_9pm]

Hello all,

 

First time posting in the Raven Guard forum. I just wanted to give you my thoughts/feedback on how well my Raven Guard army has performed in the tournaments I've played in since the 8th edition launch. If anyone wants me to post the lists I've used I'll do that later. Keep in mind that since this is a competitive-focused post, I run them mostly as a gunline to benefit from the -1 to hit Chapter Trait, which is extremely powerful. Again I fully realize that this may not be fluffy or suit your play style. I'm just letting you know what has worked for me in hopes that you might find something useful here.

 

Overall in tournament play my Raven Guard are 5-1. I think they are an extremely competitive faction when used properly. The reason for the one loss was a mistake I made and not due to the army. A tactical error and lack of rules knowledge on my part (I'm new to 8th. Last played in 5th ed) cost me the game and the tournament. However, all the rest of my opponents were tabled or nearly tabled usually by the third turn. The trouble I ran into is that some of the anti-horde options that I brought were basically useless in many of my games since the meta in my area (Arizona, US) seems to be big expensive models (RBG, Magnus, Knights galore) so that caused some of my units to artificially under perform. 

 

Without further ado here are my thoughts on the units that I've tested in battle thus far:

 

Predators: I will never leave home without 3 of these until GW realizes that the Kill Shot Stratagem is under costed. Adding 1 to your wound rolls and dealing extra damage for 1CP is insane. You wound Land Raiders and Knights on a 2+. Compare that to the Sternguard Stratagem (I forget the name) which is also 1 CP but only adds 1 to wound and you've got some serious value here. I run 4 Lascannons since I noticed that the Predator Autocannon doesn't pierce armor well enough to do any significant damage. My Predators were the MVP's in almost every game and frequently destroyed 1000+ points. They currently fly under the radar for now which is nice, since their main weakness is if one gets destroyed, the Stratagem can no longer be used. Always position them hidden behind LOS blocking terrain or completely out of range of your opponents weapons, even if you have the first turn. It's better to hit on 4+ for one turn and keep them safe rather than risk losing one or more due to a lucky seize roll by your opponent. If you're parked near a Captain or CM and Lieutenant, you'll still get a good alpha strike with them, even on a 4+. Try not to target things with Storm Shields if you can avoid it. They'll tank all of your LC shots.

 

Aggressors: Another MVP unit when the situation permits. Combine the Boltstorm Gauntlets with Strike From the Shadows and you will get accusations of cheese since units coming in from SFtS do not count as moving, allowing them to fire twice. The average number of shots for a squad of 3 with 2 rounds of shooting is 54 S4 shots. Apart from expensive Centurions it's hard to beat that volume of fire. Consider placing a Captain or Shrike nearby for re-rolls. I was running 9 of them total with Shrike in my first tournament averaging 162 shots and then realized that they would usually destroy everything they were within 18" of before all of their shooting is even done. I then dropped them down to a unit of 6 for the second tournament and I find that this usually leaves just enough enemy models left to get wiped out in the morale phase. This unit is also excellent for taking down units with Storm Shields such as Terminators or Thunderwolf Cavalry. The sheer volume of fire will guarantee that some of them will go down. I have yet to try the Flame version and probably never will due to the 8" range. Not to mention if I have re-rolls on 6 dice, I'm likely to get 5 or so hits with the bolter version anyway, meaning that the only other benefit of the flamers is overwatch. Not enough of an edge for me to consider bringing them. 

 

I almost forgot to mention how surprisingly mobile these guys are, because of their advance and shoot rule. On average you will get 3 inches advance, meaning you have a 26" threat range, bringing you back up to standard Boltgun range. Pretty good. The Power Fists are also an added bonus. I don't count on them to do my tank killing but they're always there if I need them. I'll never argue with extra versatility. Also as another bonus, the models are pretty cool. They remind me of Terran Firebats. 

 

Lias Issodon: After my first tournament, I realized that I got lucky by getting the first turn in 2 out of 3 games, allowing SFtS to be used to maximum effect. However, relying on first turn was unrealistic, and I want to be able to get the alpha strike off even when going second. My only gripe regarding 8th edition is that many games are often decided simply by who goes first. Luckily Lias allows you to mitigate this by giving you 3 free drop pods (basically) for 3 units of vanilla marines (tacs, vans, stern, devs, etc). This also consolidates 4 drops into 1, increasing your chances of going first. Using this ability properly requires some finesse though, as dropping straight into my opponents face with a 10 man unit of Sternguard, 5 Vanguard, Lias, and 5 MM Devs was pretty ineffectual most games. I'm now of the opinion that if you get the second turn and your opponent (assuming that they're also not a gunline) starts marching toward you, you drop in some Lascannon Devs, Heavy Bolter Devs, Lias, and maybe some Sternguard to create a second gunline in another location on the table, preferably on the opposite end on some objectives. They are then placed into an awkward decision of either splitting their forces, which is a bad decision because they could get killed piecemeal and have to break up their aura bubbles, or focusing on one, which is also a bad decision. Because even if they kill one fire base they won't have enough time to march across the board to the other side before the game ends. Meanwhile, your entire army can fire at theirs at a distance. I'll test this theory and report back. 

 

In terms of his combat effectiveness, he's alright. His lack of an invuln save makes him really squishy, so if he's your Warlord I would actually recommend keeping him back to avoid gifting your opponent Slay the Warlord. I think his shooting is superb though. With his advance rule and his weapon being assault, he's good for removing basic troops from objectives on the other side of the board. However, I'm going to start deep striking him next to my Preds for the rerolls and keep him safe behind 33 T7 wounds. Since his weapon has 30" range he will still likely get some kills here and there. To put it this way, his statline won't win you the battle but his rules will win you the war.

 

Captains/Lieutenants/Shrike: I lumped Shrike in here because at S4, even with re-rolls he's going to get smashed in CC by a dedicated CC unit. If he's your warlord you have to take the RG Warlord Trait which is good, not great. This is another reason I swapped him out for Lias. It fits better with my strategy since I was basically using him only for rerolls. The increase of 45 points to Lias was a no brainer for me considering I can now take Storm of Fire as my Warlord Trait and get to beta strike my opponent.

 

As far as Captains and Lieutenants go, I would say keep them cheap and don't give them any wargear apart from Jump Packs if you need them and maybe a Storm Shield if you want to use them as a speed bump to your juicier targets. If you need to fill that last 10 points that's fine but I find that even Plasma Pistols are usually a waste on them. They're there for their auras and that's what they're good at. Leave it at that.

 

Devastators: Devs are fantastic with our chapter trait. It can take a lot of firepower to get them off of an objective with the -1 to hit penalty. With my revised Lias strategy I plan on taking a unit of 4 Lascannons and another unit of 4 Heavy Bolters (only 110 points with cherub and the HB Stratagem is pseudo-smite). Always deploy at full distance if possible to maximize the shooting you get out of them. Similar to the Predator, I think it's better to keep them safe and out of LOS (or in Deep Strike) during deployment and suffer the -1 to hit penalty when they shoot rather than keep them in the open. The Sergeant can mitigate some of the movement penalty with his ability. The one thing I'm not certain about with this tactic is if it's better to use the Cherub on the first turn (to maximize alpha strike potential) or the second turn (to maximize likelihood of hitting with the additional shots). I'm leaning towards always using it on the first turn because every enemy model removed from the board is one less that is available to kill you in the subsequent turns. One loadout that is getting blacklisted by me is Deep Striking Multi-Meltas. Low volume of fire combined with extreme proximity to the enemy is a bad combination. If my Lascannon Devs whiff a turn, they'll probably have another chance next turn to redeem themselves. Not so with MM's. They're priority target number one for your enemy and they will not benefit from the -1 to Hit CT since they are so close. They will die. SFtS would help, since they would avoid the hit penalty. But what if you go second? What do you do with them? Probably place them in your back lines so that they don't die immediately. But then they can't shoot due to their range and you might as well have just taken Lascannons. There's no reason to take this loadout period IMO.

 

Sternguard: I would rate them as a B+ unit overall. Although I think they'll be a lot better if I used them properly. As I mentioned ran them with Lias and used Deep Strike and benefited from Storm of Fire, Re-rolls, and their Stratagem, yet I was still unimpressed. They didn't kill anything of serious value most games. On paper that looks really good, right? 20 shots wounding most things on 3's or 2's, vehicles on 4's with re-rolls to hit at AP -2/-3? Sign me up. BUT, because they were right in the enemy lines they always got killed themselves the very next turn. I just take the Special Issue Bolters so they are a reasonable 180 points, but that still feels like a lot to me for a one and done unit. I think the superior strategy would be to place them in some cover 29" away from an enemy unit and take your 10 shots the turn you drop in. Perhaps targeting a cheap unit squatting on an objective (Taking Maelstrom points away from your opponent). Yes, you might not kill them that first turn, but it's unlikely the enemy will have anything that can kill the Sternguard in cover with -1 to hit. They will likely continue to fire and be a nuisance for the next 3+ turns, killing light units and claiming objectives, meaning you got 40-50 shots for your points rather than 20. If you do decide to drop in Rapid Fire range, drop in behind or to the side of the enemy if possible, meaning your opponent will either have to stop advancing to fire at you or divert some troops away from your main line to deal with them, buying more time for your long range units to do their thing.

 

Vanguard: I'm not a fan. I think they're absolute garbage no matter what wargear you take. They cannot beat any dedicated close combat specialists one on one. There are better, cheaper options for killing hordes (Aggressors and Assault Cannon Razorbacks, Flyers). Thunder Hammers are expensive and too unreliable for taking down vehicles or monsters. The only thing they're good at is being a speed bump with cheap storm shields. But then what a smart opponent does it target them with Lasguns or Boltguns and your 5 man 200 point unit just died to a 30 point guardsman squad. Apart from cool looking models with Lightning Claws for fluff reasons, I can't find a use for them. In all 3 games I played with them they died without killing a single model, even while getting the charge off. I would much rather prefer a cheap unit of Reivers. Bringing me to...

 

Reivers: I like these guys a lot. Relatively cheap at 18 points and what you get can annoy your opponent to no end. 3 attacks, 2 wounds, special grenades that remove overwatch, tactical flexibility with deep strike and also reducing your deployment drops if they do so. In one game used them to SFtS and pick up the relic and run away with it on turn 1 and they held on to it for the rest of the game. In another  I used them to attack back field units that were camping objectives. They killed a unit of Devastators on the first turn and then tied up another in combat for the rest of the game. In the final game they just camped on an objective and earned me 3 Maelstrom points. They didn't kill anything but they still helped me win. If you've got some points left in your list and don't know what else to take give them a shot. As a plus they're very stealthy and fit with our Chapter fluff-wise.

 

Dreadnoughts: I really want to like Dreads due to the fact that they benefit from our Chapter Trait. I just personally haven't had any success with them. I find that even T8 Ironclads fall pretty easily to a few Lascannon shots. If you want to use them as a distraction carnifex, you could do worse, but they're just not very killy to me. The low number of attacks means they get bogged down easily by cheap units, and they tend to lose in combat to expensive units, particularly dedicated CC units. The shooty variant sitting in the DZ wouldn't be terrible, but I think Devs would fill this role better due to the increased firepower and because it's easier for them to gain a cover save. I would consider running a cheap Dread with TL Las and Dread CCW for versatility. It can pop transports from a distance and if anything gets close it might be able to do some damage, or at least buy time for your army to escape. One Dread variant that I really want to try is the Relic Leviathan. The Invul save, T8, and high number of wounds make it pretty tanky. I think I would run it with either the Grav-Flux Bombard and the Storm Cannon array or two of the Storm Cannon Arrays for 20 S7 AP -2 shots is pretty good. Range and price (dollars and points) are an issue but it would definitely draw focus away from the rest of the army for at least a few turns.

 

 

That's all I have for now, but I'm sure I'll have more in the future. Sorry for the long post. I probably should have broke it up a bit more. I hope I at least got you thinking about your list in a new way. Any suggestions you have for me or something I might have overlooked would be appreciated.

Edited September 7, 2017 by ghost_9pm

[smbarne]

Great post! I find it really useful to see someone else's experience competitively as well. Have you tried redemptor dreads? I'm thinking they could be interesting with the plasma.

 

I've played in one medium sized tournament and a few more games of 8th so I can toss my 2 cents in as well.

 

Vanguard Vets I've got 20 of these guys with tons of magnetized arms and I think they're one of the fluffiest of choices for Raven Guard. But I'm also having a really hard time making them work well. It doesn't help that I've been seized on about 60% this edition. I just think that sfts with some vets and a chaplain could do work.

 

They tied up Celestine for three turns with some storm shield saves, killed some plague Marines, and a few rhinos. But more often they've been cut down by true combat specialist such as berserkers, a daemon Prince, or whittled away at range. And boy do those two attacks at -1 hurt. It makes it hard to get weight of dice.

 

I'm hoping to figure them out a bit more as I think they add some nice speed and melee to a force.

 

Stormhawk Interceptor a solid unit that I usually field two of. At T7 and rerolling 1s on their save with their -1 to hit they're fairly tanky. But they will go down to lascannons. But not before usually getting their points back and really drawing fire.

 

Run them with a lastalon, Skyhammer, and assault cannons. Since almost every army has something that flies, their bonuses are awesome. Though I've been really underwhelmed with the Skyhammer AP. It rarely does anything against other fliers as they usually have good armor.

 

Plus they look better than Storm Talons and Storm Ravens :)

 

Assault Cannon Razorbacks I keep trying to figure out lists without them as they're a bit boring sometimes, but they're so good with Shrike giving rerolls. I've had success with three filled with tactical with plasma. Obsec troops with dakka metal boxes wins a lot of games.

 

Shrike I really wish he were tougher. I've started nominating my Lt as warlord and giving him the armor indomitus so I don't have to worry about Shrike giving it away. Watch out for upgraded seargents. You can't target them, but they can target you - if you don't wipe the squad they can kill Shrike with relative ease.

 

He's still well priced and the only chapter master I think with a 12" mobility and deep strike to help get that bubble where you need it.

 

grav devs I think they look really cool so I tried them several times. That str 5 is just really not great for their points, even with a Lt nearby. I think I've got to sit these guys out for a bit and stick with the reliable lascannons.

 

land raider redeemer Beware the sneaky combat consolidation move into them, or your 350 point model is now a brick. Overall hard to say, I want to give it another try while being even more careful screening it. Tough as nails, it will really do well against armies without lascannons. And the flamers are great. But so expensive, you could have 3.5 Razorbacks.

Edited September 6, 2017 by smbarne

[defl0]

So couple points of contention.

 

Vanguard Vets

 

2 x chain sword is actually one of the best horde clearing units in our codex pt per pt. They stack almost identical compared to aggressors. Also Thunder Hammer van guard are the best tank hunters in the codex pt per pt.

 

Check out the math on PETEHAPPENS.com

 

Venerable Dreadnoughts

 

These guys just crush for me. I like then with 4 lascannons. They are just so much more durable than devs and really similar in price. Plus other dreads are even more durable. Relic contemptor is crazy tough and don't get me started on the Leviathan.

 

Devestators

 

So, I really tried to make them work. What I finally came too is that they are awesome on something like a bastion. I know... They don't get the CT benefit and an chapter can do it. But having to chew through 20 t8 3+ wounds is a pain. But not these guys will be shooting from a great vantage point for turns and turns and turns. That said you can fit even more dakka into a fortification with dev cents...

 

Chaplains

 

Really good unit to go hunt with Vanguard

 

Shrike

 

I actually like Shrike back in my rear guard. He's far more protected and is a great counter strike unit.

 

Tartantulas

 

These :cussers are cheap and awesome. I'm but in msu. These guys fill up slots and pump out damage. Totally under rated.

 

Xiphon

 

So this guy doesn't get any fan fair... But it's the same price as a predator but has -1 and +2 to shoot flyers.

 

Fire Raptor

 

Flying death. Just decimates stuff.

[Claws and Effect]

I think Vanguard are better off being given dual claws and used to shred infantry.

 

Send them in with Shrike leading and you don't have to worry about overwatch and get 35 S4 attacks that reroll to hit AND to wound.

 

Not that great against tougher stuff, but that will rip through T4-5 1W units.

[Lemondish]

Regarding your Dreadnought points, you can't use SftS on Dreadnoughts as they're not infantry. You also can't drop a Relic Leviathan with Lias for the same reason.

[Sloeberjong]

Not a long respons, because excellent post(s). But you can't deepstrike or SftS dreadnoughts since they're not infantry. Both Lias and the SftS say that they can be used on <INFANTRY>, dreadnoughts are <VEHICLE>. It's a shame, but understandable.

 

edit: *ninja'd* 

Edited September 6, 2017 by Sloeberjong

[defl0]

Dual claws are in a weird spot. They kill less GEQs then dual chain swords. They kill less MEQ than thunder hammers. Thunder hammers obvious smash vehicles the best

[SkimaskMohawk]

Vanguard Vets

 

2 x chain sword is actually one of the best horde clearing units in our codex pt per pt. They stack almost identical compared to aggressors. Also Thunder Hammer van guard are the best tank hunters in the codex pt per pt.

 

Check out the math on PETEHAPPENS.com

 

 

 

The problem is you need to complete a charge and survive overwatch to actually do their thing, not mentioning dudes attacking back. They might do comparable s4 as aggressors on the move, but them needing melee makes them way worse. Also you mention consolidating backwards to regain chapter tactics. You can't; you have to end up closer to the nearest enemy unit 

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

Venerable Dreadnoughts

 

These guys just crush for me. I like then with 4 lascannons. They are just so much more durable than devs and really similar in price. Plus other dreads are even more durable. Relic contemptor is crazy tough and don't get me started on the Leviathan.

 

 

While I agree with your core concept here, 2 x Twin LC Venerable Dreadnoughts don't exist, correct? Its either Mortis-Pattern (so a regular Dread with 2 x Twin LC) or a Relic Contemptor with 2 x Twin LC.

 

The Mortis Pattern variant is 5? points more than a squad of devastators, but over twice as durable. It's better in almost every way with the exception of getting a cover save (from what I can see). Plus the Relic Contemptor with the higher BS and movement is no slouch either (for 60 more points).

 

I dont have a copy of the FW Index in front of me, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

 

 

 

Vanguard: I'm not a fan. I think they're absolute garbage no matter what wargear you take. They cannot beat any dedicated close combat specialists one on one. There are better, cheaper options for killing hordes (Aggressors and Assault Cannon Razorbacks, Flyers). Thunder Hammers are expensive and too unreliable for taking down vehicles or monsters. The only thing they're good at is being a speed bump with cheap storm shields. But then what a smart opponent does it target them with Lasguns or Boltguns and your 5 man 200 point unit just died to a 30 point guardsman squad. Apart from cool looking models with Lightning Claws for fluff reasons, I can't find a use for them. In all 3 games I played with them they died without killing a single model, even while getting the charge off. I would much rather prefer a cheap unit of Reivers. Bringing me to...

 

 

What sort of unit are you attacking with Vanguard Vets where you don't kill a single model getting the charge 3 times? This seems like quite the exaggeration.

 

Even with napkin math 10 Vanguards (with JP and Twin LC) charging 20 Berzerkers (Blades and Axes) (roughly the same cost, Berzerkers are slightly more expensive). Vanguards with no reroll support can kill ~9 Zerkers and lose 3-4 on the counter attack. Zerkers lose another handful to morale after the fact.

 

Even in this gross oversimplification, they still perform respectable versus one of the better touted dedicated hand to hand units in the game (and frankly id never go after 20 Zerkers with Vanguard Vets as my path to victory).

 

Are you going after Super Heavies with Chainswords or what?

 

This whole post is filled with very valuable information, but this snippet of info wreaks of exaggeration and misinformation to the point of pushing an agenda.

 

I get that Vanguards are hardly our "best unit" in the book (by a large margin), but posting information like the above has the possibility of skewing a large group of people against something based on misinformation. 

 

 

Edited September 6, 2017 by ltvyper

[ghost_9pm]

Thanks for the responses everyone. Good info. Instead of mucking up my post with a bunch of quotes I'll just respond all at once. smbarne thank you for adding those additional units. I haven't tested many of those myself but I think that your reasoning is good with those. I'm looking forward to testing the flyers out. I like the maneuverability for linebreaker and those annoying Maelstrom objectives that require you to have something within 12" of your opponents board edge (For ITC).

 

Sorry about the Dreadnought confusion. I somehow got it in my head that they could use Strike From the Shadows and Lias' ability. I'll go back and edit the post in a second. That would change my loadout on the Relic Leviathan. I think I would remove the Grav Flux due to the range of 18" and replace it with another Storm Cannon Array. 20 S7 AP -2 shots per turn seems decent. It's still a huge points sink though that would probably be better spent on more infantry. 

 

I tend to agree with SkimaskMohawk that the double chainsword is good but not great. The Aggressors have the advantage of being able to prioritize targets for elimination. Imagine a line of conscripts with some plasma vets behind them. A 200-300 point dual-LC or dual-CS vanguard squad is forced to charge into the conscripts, leaving the vets free to rapid fire plasma into them next turn with no benefit from the Chapter Trait. Yes you will probably wipe out 120 points worth of conscripts easily but what you've done is traded your rook for their pawn. It's just not worth it to me.

 

The aggressors on the other hand, can sit at 18" away (getting the benefit of the Chapter Trait) and pop the plasma veterans with their gauntlets and probably still have shooting left over to take out some of the conscripts as well. With shooting, I am in control of where I place my shots, rather than my opponent dictating what I can and cannot assault. Also when I shoot they don't get hit by overwatch or attacked back (aside from Ynnari shenanigans lol). Not to mention I can't fail a charge roll with shooting. The very worst case scenario here would be that the vans fail to get into combat with those conscripts and I'm left hanging out in the open. That's too much of a risk for me personally, even with the cheap dual-CS loadout.

 

Defl0 I'll give Thunder Hammers another shot in some practice rounds. Maybe it's just my luck but it seems even with Lias hanging around I get a lot of misses with them. I think even if the math is on their side they still run into other problems. The main one being is that they are melee only. If you're close enough to get into melee then you're also close enough to take small arms fire from your opponent. A Lascannon or ML on the other hand, can sit a distance and be immune from those weapons (at least until the enemy closes in). I also know that a lot of people point to the flat 3 damage as being a plus, but I don't mind the D6 damage so much because it also has the benefit of the higher upside. I know it's basically gambling but at least there's a chance to get that clutch roll of a 6 and knock out that knight. It's always an easy command point decision to re-roll the 1 damage result when you need 3-4 to kill something.

[ghost_9pm]

ltvyper - Thanks for the feedback man. Not sure what type of "agenda" you think I would have.  I think that might be a bit of an exaggeration if there were any here. haha. I'm just sharing my experiences and they've disappointed me frequently enough when it mattered for it to be noticeable. 

 

I'll go through what they charged into. Keep in mind the meta I play in is a lot of large, tough units so I didn't expect them to wipe out the opposing unit by any means but I expected them to at least tie up the enemy for a turn or two to buy space for my ranged units. Also of note is that I did not Deep Strike them in any of my games. 

 

Game 1 - Thunderwolf Cavalry. I missed 2 out of 5 of my TH hits due to charging out of range of Lias. The single Storm Shield in the unit blocked the remaining 3 wounds. Thunderwolves struck back and between the riders and wolves killed all of my Vanguard. I believe my chainsword vans took 2 wounds off a TW but didn't kill it so it was able to strike back.

 

Game 2 - Some Large Knight Variant - I apologize that I don't know the name of it. It has T9 and some cheesy guns that should probably only be in 30k or Apocalypse. This time it may have been due to bad luck because if I recall correctly (It's been a couple weeks now), they hit with 3 out of 5 but failed to wound due to needing 5's. Knight struck back, killed my two Storm shields then backed out of combat next turn and killed the rest by shooting.

 

Game 3 - Razorback - This was what tipped me over the edge on these guys. My AT shooting was finished and I needed to peel 4 more wounds off of a Razorback to stop my opponent from moving to contest an objective. They assaulted and missed 2 out of 3 hits (The other hammer was dead at this point in the game). I did do 3 damage to it but the Razor was still able to move to contest the next turn. Since they were down to 3 men the assault cannons and rapid fire bolters killed them off the next turn.

 

Could it have been bad luck or bad matchups that explains all 3 games? Possibly. And it wouldn't have bothered me nearly as much if I wasn't spending 150 points on them. I had chalked it up to that in my practice games where they didn't perform that well either, which is why I still took them. Everything in my list needs a role or a niche so that I can get those good matchups you mentioned. In my opinion it seems that with the wargear available to them, they don't do well at AT, and they are decent at horde control but there are better options in our codex for that role. Their mobility is certainly a strength but I can get units that are even more mobile and are superior at horde control to boot. I just don't see a place for them in a competitive list. If you can share how you've used them with success I'm all ears because I just spent $50 on these models   

 

Again I'm not trying to misinform anyone. But it seems that every other topic on this forum is regarding how to best equip Vanguard Veterans. I think the reason for that is people have had the same experience I had and think "Well I must have equipped them wrong. Maybe if I bring different wargear they will perform better next time". I think the answer is that they're just not that good in a competitive list.

 

BTW did your math include the Berzerkers hitting twice? With a certain stratagem I believe they can actually fight 3 times. Nasty stuff.

 

Edit: One thing that came to mind is that perhaps they're not an "Elite" unit per se, and should be used more along the lines of Reivers. Keep them cheap and use them as a backline harassment unit and fast objective campers instead of loading them up with wargear. Have you used them in this way ltvyper?

Edited September 7, 2017 by ghost_9pm

[Spaz]

@ghost_9pm: Good stuff. What list are you using? Being the newest of the new (not even one game in) it's good to hear opinions. Edited September 7, 2017 by Spaz

[Gulltramarine]

Great post. But I just want to offer a case for the defence of Vanguard Veterans;

 

Vans are my favourite unit in the game and my whole army is built around them, so I was keen to make them work this edition. Generally speaking, their pros and cons are pretty evident

 

Pros:

• Versatile: Very customisable weapon loadouts, no limits on what you can take from pistol and close combat armouries
• Jump Packs: I think they're amazing this edition, speed, deep strike, ignore terrain. They are so much better than bikes in the way that bikes were infinitely better in 7th.
• Price: Only paying 2 points per jump pack and, though their general statline is in line with that of a normal marine, it can be considered a bargain with +1A and +1Ld. Not super cheap, but not exorbitant either.

Cons:

• They're just marines and die like marines. Probably need to take 10 man squads to make them effective.
• They are supposed to be the light close combat unit of codex SM chapters, but come up very short against most other factions' elite cc units
• JP vans can't go in rhinos, which I think are one of the best value units in the game
• Apart from an expensive Lightning Claw loadout, there isn't much else that makes them specialised. They're often okay at a lot of things but never excellent at anything, which isn't ideal for this edition.

 

I think the important thing is to stop viewing Vans as elite units. As mentioned, they're too soft to run in 5 man units so, first and foremost, they need to be run in large numbers to make them any good. This will rule them out for a lot of people who would prefer to pump their points into more specialised assault units.

 

Also, viewing them in this new light, you will have to conclude that giving them storm shields is almost pointless. 5 extra points to protect a low cost, single wound model makes very little sense in the current edition, as they will be ground down just as easily by bolter and lasgun fire. Sure, getting hit with a lascannon might hurt, but an opponent’s lascannon aimed at a vanguard squad should be welcomed rather than feared. The storm shield will harm any potential output they have, as one hand is being used for shield-holding, and any additional weapon is going to make a humble vanguard expensive beyond the point of value.

 

Thunder Hammers are too expensive to use en masse, and too ineffective when you don’t have enough. -1 to hit is a big deal, and I really think they should be the preserve of TH/SS termies who are a little more durable and worth such a mercurial weapon. A powerfist is slightly more palatable cost-wise, but I don’t like them, rolling 1s and 2s for D3 damage has hurt me too many times.

 

Lightning claws are a good, if expensive and limited, option. If you do this, then run plenty of them and with a JP Chaplain. You’re talking a 400 point outlay for 10 JP LCs and a chaplain. They’ll wreck whatever they charge, but don’t expect them to last long afterwards. Still pretty good if you’re running a standard 8^th ed RG firebase with 2 dev squads or something. Use SftS to get them close, or just deep strike them. Your opponent will have to deal with them no matter what, they could kill or tie up important defensive units, so they will attract fire that might otherwise be pumped into your gamechanging units.

 

Here’s my preferred loadout. 10 men squads with jump pack and plasma pistol/chainsword combos. 250 pts each squad, but well worth it. Drop in a min captain with Jump pack and here is what you get.

 

• 10 deep striking S8 AP-3 D2 shots, rerolling ones (mercifully). It will destroy almost everything it aims at, which is good, because you can clear out anything within that RG 12” threat range so enemies have to move closer to you to hurt you effectively. Hurts most infantry on a 2+ and very few will get a decent save from it.
• Damage 2 cannot be overstated, as this is a common wounds tally for elite units. You drop bikes, Primaris, Termies etc. in one shot instead of two. It will still blitz larger ten man squads of anything and can handle even large targets like Dreads or Tanks. It’s such a versatile gun. Sure, one or two lads will overheat, but it’s well worth it.
• You can jump out of combat and still use them, a rather big deal.
• Not having to even be in combat means you won’t be taking damage in your own turn either.
• 31 chainsword attacks in close combat is still pretty good and is perfectly fine for dealing with non-elite hordes.
• Overwatch is potentially very nasty, especially with reroll 1s. Even one or 2 hits will put the pain on
• Mathhammer-wise, it stacks up. 10 plasma pistols are 70 points. You can fit 4 hammers in at that price range which, assuming you put one on a sarge, gives you 9 attacks, 4-5 of which are hitting. Probably less if you roll like I do.
• 10 Plasma pistols give you 10 shots, 7-8 of which are hitting, which you don’t need a successful charge to use, and wound just as easily with the same AP. The damage is one less, but D3 is wasted on most units you encounter. As the saying goes, when all you have is a Thunder Hammer, every single problem starts to look like a Land Raider.
• A ten man squad with 5 dual-wielders and 5 standard vans will even give you the same amount of shots for the same amount of points with the added benefit of ablative wounds

 

So to summarize, vans with plasma pistols are great. They deal with hordes, monsters, vehicles and have the speed and tactical flexibility to take objectives when they decide to stop vaporizing things. Their threat is far more broad but no less effective than hammers and fists and they are potentially the most cost-effective killer of elites in the game. 

Edited September 7, 2017 by Gulltramarine

[smbarne]

Great post. But I just want to offer a case for the defence of Vanguard Veterans;

 

Vans are my favourite unit in the game and my whole army is built around them, so I was keen to make them work this edition. Generally speaking, their pros and cons are pretty evident

 

Pros:

• Versatile: Very customisable weapon loadouts, no limits on what you can take from pistol and close combat armouries
• Jump Packs: I think they're amazing this edition, speed, deep strike, ignore terrain. They are so much better than bikes in the way that bikes were infinitely better in 7th.
• Price: Only paying 2 points per jump pack and, though their general statline is in line with that of a normal marine, it can be considered a bargain with +1A and +1Ld. Not super cheap, but not exorbitant either.

Cons:

• They're just marines and die like marines. Probably need to take 10 man squads to make them effective.
• They are supposed to be the light close combat unit of codex SM chapters, but come up very short against most other factions' elite cc units
• JP vans can't go in rhinos, which I think are one of the best value units in the game
• Apart from an expensive Lightning Claw loadout, there isn't much else that makes them specialised. They're often okay at a lot of things but never excellent at anything, which isn't ideal for this edition.

 

I think the important thing is to stop viewing Vans as elite units. As mentioned, they're too soft to run in 5 man units so, first and foremost, they need to be run in large numbers to make them any good. This will rule them out for a lot of people who would prefer to pump their points into more specialised assault units.

 

Also, viewing them in this new light, you will have to conclude that giving them storm shields is almost pointless. 5 extra points to protect a low cost, single wound model makes very little sense in the current edition, as they will be ground down just as easily by bolter and lasgun fire. Sure, getting hit with a lascannon might hurt, but an opponent’s lascannon aimed at a vanguard squad should be welcomed rather than feared. The storm shield will harm any potential output they have, as one hand is being used for shield-holding, and any additional weapon is going to make a humble vanguard expensive beyond the point of value.

 

Thunder Hammers are too expensive to use en masse, and too ineffective when you don’t have enough. -1 to hit is a big deal, and I really think they should be the preserve of TH/SS termies who are a little more durable and worth such a mercurial weapon. A powerfist is slightly more palatable cost-wise, but I don’t like them, rolling 1s and 2s for D3 damage has hurt me too many times.

 

Lightning claws are a good, if expensive and limited, option. If you do this, then run plenty of them and with a JP Chaplain. You’re talking a 400 point outlay for 10 JP LCs and a chaplain. They’ll wreck whatever they charge, but don’t expect them to last long afterwards. Still pretty good if you’re running a standard 8^th ed RG firebase with 2 dev squads or something. Use SftS to get them close, or just deep strike them. Your opponent will have to deal with them no matter what, they could kill or tie up important defensive units, so they will attract fire that might otherwise be pumped into your gamechanging units.

 

Here’s my preferred loadout. 10 men squads with jump pack and plasma pistol/chainsword combos. 250 pts each squad, but well worth it. Drop in a min captain with Jump pack and here is what you get.

 

• 10 deep striking S8 AP-3 D2 shots, rerolling ones (mercifully). It will destroy almost everything it aims at, which is good, because you can clear out anything within that RG 12” threat range so enemies have to move closer to you to hurt you effectively. Hurts most infantry on a 2+ and very few will get a decent save from it.
• Damage 2 cannot be overstated, as this is a common wounds tally for elite units. You drop bikes, Primaris, Termies etc. in one shot instead of two. It will still blitz larger ten man squads of anything and can handle even large targets like Dreads or Tanks. It’s such a versatile gun. Sure, one or two lads will overheat, but it’s well worth it.
• You can jump out of combat and still use them, a rather big deal.
• Not having to even be in combat means you won’t be taking damage in your own turn either.
• 31 chainsword attacks in close combat is still pretty good and is perfectly fine for dealing with non-elite hordes.
• Overwatch is potentially very nasty, especially with reroll 1s. Even one or 2 hits will put the pain on
• Mathhammer-wise, it stacks up. 10 plasma pistols are 70 points. You can fit 4 hammers in at that price range which, assuming you put one on a sarge, gives you 9 attacks, 4-5 of which are hitting. Probably less if you roll like I do.
• 10 Plasma pistols give you 10 shots, 7-8 of which are hitting, which you don’t need a successful charge to use, and wound just as easily with the same AP. The damage is one less, but D3 is wasted on most units you encounter. As the saying goes, when all you have is a Thunder Hammer, every single problem starts to look like a Land Raider.
• A ten man squad with 5 dual-wielders and 5 standard vans will even give you the same amount of shots for the same amount of points with the added benefit of ablative wounds

 

So to summarize, vans with plasma pistols are great. They deal with hordes, monsters, vehicles and have the speed and tactical flexibility to take objectives when they decide to stop vaporizing things. Their threat is far more broad but no less effective than hammers and fists and they are potentially the most cost-effective killer of elites in the game. 

 

I really like this!  The 10 plasma pistol + 10 chainsword approach makes them quite versatile and allows them to rely more on deep striking with their jump packs instead of SftS, which can be risky if you don't get first turn.  I think I'd like to try this combo next.  One of the few things preventing me from trying more plasma pistols or gunslingers is that I like run WYSIWYG and acquiring plasma pistol bits isn't the easiest ( let alone that I've got like 40 arms painted, only ~5 of which are plasma pistols.... ).

 

The one area I would change the loadout would to add 2-3 storm shields to the squad instead of the chainswords.  A 3++ save on a one wound model may be expensive, but it can make them must more robust.  You can take the normal armor saves when the ap is nothing or take the invul when being shot by plasma or attacked with power weapons.  A single storm shield can keep the rest of the squad alive while it keeps tanking saves! ( Your milage and luck my vary game to game at the whims of a 3+ roll ).

 

One other note would be that I'd consider running them in five man squads to reduce the chances morale could affect them.  It increases the odds you'll go second, but with the Chapter Approved rules that is less predictable.

 

I've been wanting to try a min squad with: 1x TH + Plasma Pistol on Sarg, 2x powerfist + SS, 2x 2LC.  Then  run 3 of them.  The unit costs about 157 points and is fairly versatile and not *too* expensive.  Putting power fists on the storm shield guys helps me not feel too guilty tanking on them.

 

----

 

I'd love people's thoughts on dealing with Poxwalkers.  With the new Death Guard models in the DI box and the codex coming up, I'm facing a lot of Death Guard.  And those Poxwalkers with Typhus buffing them to T4 with a sorcerer applying -1 to hit on them, they are a giant pain to deal with.  I feel like they are one of the toughest screen units in the game and a good example of what you might need to deal with.  Aggressors are probably the answer here, anyone else have some good answers?  My Razorbacks with twin assault cannons and StormHawks with assault cannons were decently effective, but that's like 800 points of shooting to not even wipe the unit with their disgustingly resilient saves.

 

I'm guessing the LC van vets or chainsword van vets as mentioned before could be of use as well?

[SkimaskMohawk]

Aggressors are really good of course, with the alpha strike combo of rerolls you kill 38. Flame weapons do a number as well if your opponent hits them up with miasma. The problem is that any weapon with AP loses value since you can't modify DR, and the jump from T3 to T4 is huge when it comes to wound rolls. From my own experience running typhus and 60 zombos, the entire enemy army usually needs to focus down a unit to get rid of it

[Gulltramarine]

 

 

 

The one area I would change the loadout would to add 2-3 storm shields to the squad instead of the chainswords.  A 3++ save on a one wound model may be expensive, but it can make them must more robust.  You can take the normal armor saves when the ap is nothing or take the invul when being shot by plasma or attacked with power weapons.  A single storm shield can keep the rest of the squad alive while it keeps tanking saves! ( Your milage and luck my vary game to game at the whims of a 3+ roll ).

 

One other note would be that I'd consider running them in five man squads to reduce the chances morale could affect them.  It increases the odds you'll go second, but with the Chapter Approved rules that is less predictable.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah, I tried the 3/4 SS tank tactic, but I wasn't too impressed. It disappears quickly enough and it still boils down to this: Storm shields just aren't cost-effective on a 1 wound model. The fact that they're likely going to in the opponent's face means that mortal wounds will be in issue and small arms fire will still drop them like any other SM.

 

5 man squads is a good idea. But you can always just combat squad them for tactical flexibility. I like big lumps of marines dropping from the sky personally!

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

I tend to agree with SkimaskMohawk that the double chainsword is good but not great. The Aggressors have the advantage of being able to prioritize targets for elimination. Imagine a line of conscripts with some plasma vets behind them. A 200-300 point dual-LC or dual-CS vanguard squad is forced to charge into the conscripts, leaving the vets free to rapid fire plasma into them next turn with no benefit from the Chapter Trait. Yes you will probably wipe out 120 points worth of conscripts easily but what you've done is traded your rook for their pawn. It's just not worth it to me.

 

I have never tried the dual chainsword loadout before, but I have to admit it sounds fun/cheap. One thing to add/remind is that when you SFTS a unit of VV (which is what you should be doing), they get to Jump and charge after that. With creative deployment you can oftentimes "jump over" bubble wrap. When your opponent wises up to this (which they will), you will find that the end result is you hem your opponent into a nice neat little block that they don't want to move out from. While moving your Vanguards into this mess will result in an inglorious death, choosing to keep them outside and do nothing can be more valuable. More on this later.

 

ltvyper - Thanks for the feedback man. Not sure what type of "agenda" you think I would have.  I think that might be a bit of an exaggeration if there were any here. haha. I'm just sharing my experiences and they've disappointed me frequently enough when it mattered for it to be noticeable. 

 

I didn't mean to come across in a way that seemed flippant, I just frequently see posts that have great potential on this forum (and others) where someone establishes a good level of authority on a topic and then they make a statement that is bordering on an absolute and that generates a narrative that can skew all future discussions. When it comes to any unit and its validity/use, I try to shy away from making absolute statements (regardless of whether condemning or uplifting). I think all choices should stay in constant review of performance, and I like to think this is not only "my way" but also the "Raven Guard way" as well. (to get all fluff nerdy on ya). Bring the right tool for the right job, ya know?

 

Game 1 - Thunderwolf Cavalry. I missed 2 out of 5 of my TH hits due to charging out of range of Lias. The single Storm Shield in the unit blocked the remaining 3 wounds. Thunderwolves struck back and between the riders and wolves killed all of my Vanguard. I believe my chainsword vans took 2 wounds off a TW but didn't kill it so it was able to strike back.

 

Game 2 - Some Large Knight Variant - I apologize that I don't know the name of it. It has T9 and some cheesy guns that should probably only be in 30k or Apocalypse. This time it may have been due to bad luck because if I recall correctly (It's been a couple weeks now), they hit with 3 out of 5 but failed to wound due to needing 5's. Knight struck back, killed my two Storm shields then backed out of combat next turn and killed the rest by shooting.

 

Game 3 - Razorback - This was what tipped me over the edge on these guys. My AT shooting was finished and I needed to peel 4 more wounds off of a Razorback to stop my opponent from moving to contest an objective. They assaulted and missed 2 out of 3 hits (The other hammer was dead at this point in the game). I did do 3 damage to it but the Razor was still able to move to contest the next turn. Since they were down to 3 men the assault cannons and rapid fire bolters killed them off the next turn.

 

Judging from your examples, it appears you are running a small unit (5 guys). With some combination of 2 Thunder Hammers and 2 Storm shields, and maybe something else to get to 150 points.

 

I can tell you right off the bat this is a principal problem. There are two important things to keep in mind when running VV (and Gulltramarine echoes this further down as well):

 

1) Bulk them out: I don't ever run VVs in units smaller than 8, and I prefer 10 now. They just aren't leathal enough in small numbers to either a) threaten your opponent into doing what you want, or b) have enough attacks to eliminate targets you need them to be able to kill

 

2) Equip them for the job you need them to do, and then throw a little extra on top. They are going to get shot at, and they are going to get whittled down. You need to think about what sort of damage an 8-man unit is going to put out after dropping down to 5, etc. 

 

Could it have been bad luck or bad matchups that explains all 3 games? Possibly. And it wouldn't have bothered me nearly as much if I wasn't spending 150 points on them. I had chalked it up to that in my practice games where they didn't perform that well either, which is why I still took them. Everything in my list needs a role or a niche so that I can get those good matchups you mentioned. In my opinion it seems that with the wargear available to them, they don't do well at AT, and they are decent at horde control but there are better options in our codex for that role. Their mobility is certainly a strength but I can get units that are even more mobile and are superior at horde control to boot. I just don't see a place for them in a competitive list. If you can share how you've used them with success I'm all ears because I just spent $50 on these models   

 

I would say Game 1 and Game 2 in your example were expected outcomes. Game 3 while frustrating and a bit of a laugh, statistically came out as expected (you had about a 50/50 shot of doing 2 wounds/6 damage, then he still would have had his 6+ save). This is the issue with Thunder Hammers (and Power Fists). That -1 to hit without re-roll support is very punishing. All 3 of these examples are "knife to a gunfight" situations, in my opinion. Alternatively they all symptomatically point towards a deficiency in how to kill high wound/toughness models in 8th Edition. Charging any of those 3 targets with 1-2 thunder hammers and expecting anything other than disappointment is...misinformed.

 

BTW did your math include the Berzerkers hitting twice? With a certain stratagem I believe they can actually fight 3 times. Nasty stuff.

My Berzerker math was pretty rough, but just for argument's sake ill math it out (for transparency) since that is sort of my whole deal (objective analysis). Assuming VV get the charge:

 

31 Lightning Claw attacks. ~21 Hits. ~16 Wounds. ~11 Killed.

 

Berzerkers attack back. ~14 Chainaxe Hits.  9 Wounds. ~4 Killed. ~7 Chainsword Hits. ~3 Wounds. ~1 Killed

Berzerkers go again. Same results 5 more killed.

 

This is obviously prone to a lot of variance between the two rounds of combat in addition to the Death to the False Emperor rule generating bonus attacks. Vanguards on average die to a man, and ~17 of the Berzerkers die between combat and morale by the end of the turn. So nearly a wash.

 

The Vanguards are ~300 Points for 10 with 2x LC and Jump Packs. The 20 Berzerkers are ~350 for Axes and Swords.

 

All in all they are close to a wash with the Vanguards going first. Hardly a glowing example, but I still feel it illustrates my previous point. Also demonstrates how important getting the charge is. Also worth noting that Loyalists have the same stratagem to attack again, and its 3 CP. So technically one side could wipe the other should they wish by using it.

 

Edit: One thing that came to mind is that perhaps they're not an "Elite" unit per se, and should be used more along the lines of Reivers. Keep them cheap and use them as a backline harassment unit and fast objective campers instead of loading them up with wargear. Have you used them in this way ltvyper?

 

I would say that if you want a cheap unit to harass the backlines, and simply tie up stuff like battlesuits/devastators/etc (a heavy firepower unit that sucks in hand to hand), you could run ASMs and serve the same purpose. If I was going to run small units of Vanguards (which I would honestly never do) I would probably consider them with multiple plasma pistols (5-10 across 5 guys) as a means to deliver deep striking highly mobile plasma, and only use hand to hand as a means to tie a unit up and prevent it from shooting. As Gulltramarine mentioned, you can always fall back on your turn and shoot something (or stay in and shoot what your'e engaged with).

 

Great post. But I just want to offer a case for the defence of Vanguard Veterans; *snip*

 

All valid points.

 

In my mind, I have found success with them in two setups:

 

1) Large squad (8-10 strong). Dual Lightning claws, with 1-2 guys with Chainswords/Shields to act as ablative wounds. I hunt my enemies critical infantry. If I can accompany them with Reroll support (Shrike) they can even manage to take out transports/monsters fairly well (T7 and lower). (8 Vanguards with Lightning Claws and Shrikes reroll can put out ~12 wounds on a T7 target, not counting potential chainsword attacks (from the ablative guys) or shrikes attacks himself.

 

2) Plasma (Again, 8-10 strong). I have personally tried a unit with Plasma/Thunderhammer on 6 guys, and 2 "ablative" guys with Plasma/Storm Shield. Used a barebones jump pack captain to overcharge spam them, jump around and prey on armor/monsters. I wouldn't rate them as super cost effective, but they do give flexibility.

[ghost_9pm]

Thanks Gull for your contribution.You two smbarne. You both made some excellent points. I see two main configurations that could be viable:

 

Version 1 - Cheap harassment unit similar to Reivers. The benefit to having the Vanguard do this versus the Reivers is that they have the added mobility to objective hop if you need to. But if you play one of the missions that have relatively few objectives you might end up camping on one and their  jump packs are wasted. With 2 chainswords they could have one more attack than the Reivers as well. The Reivers have the benefit of an extra wound and the special grenades. I can see an argument for either unit. 10 wounds in cover for the Reivers at -1 is pretty hard to dislodge from my experience. But since this unit probably won't be targeted much I'm thinking that the Vanguard with their added mobility probably takes the win here. I'm looking forward to testing this out.

 

Gull I see your point on the Storm Shields. If you equip a whole squad of 10 you're looking at 50 points that would probably be better used elsewhere in the army. However if you have 5-10 extra points to spare in your army to fill up a 2000 point list, it makes sense to make them a little more durable, rather than giving some Captain a Plasma Pistol who probably won't use it. 

 

Version 2 - Plasma Assassins. Drop in and deliver 10 Plasma Pistol shots, preferably with a cheap Captain nearby to overcharge and re-roll 1's. I think you mentioned that this would be around 250 points. Around 350 with the Captain. I'm not sure if I'm 100% sold on this one yet. I haven't had much luck deep striking anything up close. I'm also curious as to whether there might be a cheaper option out there that achieves the same mission. Since we have access to Lias perhaps the Company Veterans with Plasma Guns or Sternguard with Combi-Plasma. Or maybe even taking some Hellblasters that have the option to use SFtS if we're lucky and get the first turn. I'll definitely give this one a shot but I feel like they might run into the same problem I ran into with my Sternguard, which is they become a one and done unit. I think this loadout would do well on missions that use entire board halves for DZ's such as Dawn of War or Hammer and Anvil, because the enemy is more likely to spread out their forces which allows us to pick off a straggler unit. In missions that use table quarters for DZ's, the enemy will be concentrated in a small area, making this far more difficult to accomplish.

 

There's a GT coming up in my area soon so I'll be sure to test it out.

 

Edit: I posted this before seeing ltvypers comments and it looks like we came to the same conclusion on which loadouts are viable. haha

 

But in response to your comments ltvyper, yes I had some points to fill and IIRC I took 5 Vans with 2 TH's, 4 Storm Shields, and 2 Plasma Pistols. I suppose this could be because I didn't have a specific mission for them, they were basically list filler to run with Lias. I'll keep an open mind on them. I apologize for speaking in absolutes in my original post. I was probably still a little salty from that loss and took it out on them. lol

 

And yes I can see taking a plain assault marine unit instead as a harassment unit. I think it would be about 10 points cheaper. I think the extra attack is probably worth the points though. Since the target would mostly be basic troops or squishy support units I think it would help quite a bit with damage. If points allow maybe even a single guy with dual-LC's to deal with numbers.

 

How have you found the plasma squad? Gull mentioned that he's done pretty well with them.

Edited September 7, 2017 by ghost_9pm

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

Company Vets w/Plasma (4 x Plasmagun, 1 x Combi-Plasma): 147 Points. The cheapest/cost effective plasma delivery. If you are using Lias this is probably your best bet as he can offset their mobility issue by allowing them to deep strike.

 

Vanguard Veterans (10 x Plasma Pistol): 160 Points. Next best choice in terms of cost/effectiveness. These boys have the advantage of their own delivery system (Deep Strike), and they are highly mobile (Jump Pack). Drawbacks are range (Only 12" total range, whereas the other options have 24" or 30" ranged for single tap at least). If you couple move with double tap, these have the best (24") vs the Company Vets (18"). That being said, technically Hellblasters with Assault plasma have the highest, at their own drawbacks (30"+D6").

 

Hellblasters w/ Plasma Incenerator (Cheapest option x 5): 165 Points. Most durable option AND strongest weapon. I look at these as a compromise between the above two choices. Effective range is better than Co Vets, but not as good as Vanguards (on the move). They also have the best weapon (that delicious -4), and they have 2 Wounds. That being said, they have no delivery method other than SFTS.

 

I think it ultimately comes down to Raven Guard vs Raptors, and how many spare command points you have. Also it's worth noting that the Vanguard have the added bonus of charging a unit to bog them down and deny them shooting, and can easily fall back and shoot again in your turn after. Can be very useful to stop that annoying Leman Russ or Devastator Squad from shooting on its next turn (you can effectively stop two enemy units from putting out damage, one by shooting, the other by assault).

 

Edit: Just saw your edit. You don't owe me an apology at all :) I really enjoy the healthy debate, and I am glad our community here is growing! (I have been playing Raven Guard since 5th Ed when they were garbage).

 

I agree with you on the Assault Marines, they aren't worth the point savings. In fact I think the ONLY reason to consider ASMs is for the Flamers, and even then I am not convinced, sadly they are pretty terrible, Vanguards just do their job better in nearly every way for little to no cost.

 

My plasma outfitted Vanguards have done very well when I have played with them, but they do suffer from the "one and done" syndrome. I think its very important for Raven Guard/Raptor armies that intend to get in close with your enemy early on to apply a large amount of pressure (IE: Multiple "alternate deployments" - SFTS, Deep Strike, Lias, etc - To force your opponent to choose where they shoot/attack). If you don't commit enough, what little you do commit can be easily dealt with in one turn, and that loses you all your leverage. Keeping the pressure up on a flank with these offensive deployments can cause a TON of damage, but more importantly, it can leave the rest of your army to freely score points while your enemy scrabbles to prevent their house from burning down. All the while the scrabble to deal with your Vanguards/Shrike/Lias/Aggressors/etc, they more than likely aren't scoring many Maelstrom points because their agility is responding to your own. 

 

Its a balancing act of committing enough to wound your enemy. Commit to little and he shrugs off the blow and counter punches in a fashion that cripples you. Commit too much and you overextend yourself and expose your throat to getting crippled in kind.

Edited September 7, 2017 by ltvyper

[ghost_9pm]

Great post ltvyper. A lot of good info there.

 

I think I have an interesting idea on how to run the Plasma Pistol Vanguard in my list in conjunction with Lias. I would use them as a counter-Deep Strike unit. One problem I ran into was units that could deep strike close to my fire base and harass my Preds, or if I got the first turn, units that could deep strike in and respond to my alpha strikers. Because Lias' ability allows you to choose the turn your units arrive, if I run up against someone with some nasty unit that can Deep Strike in, I can save my PP Vanguard to drop in after my opponent and respond to his Deep Strikers. If they get close enough to my lines an Auspex Scan should weaken the opposing unit, allowing the Vans and my fire base to eliminate the threat the next turn. In all likelihood the enemy would be able to take out a single bubble wrap unit but that's it. Afterwards, the Vanguard are then free to move about the board and take any other targets of opportunity or simply speed bump any other approaching units. Since they are close to my back lines this should solve the one and done problem as well. I imagine they should be able to get some more work done in the following turns, even if it's just taking an objective here and there (a less glorious but equally important task).

 

I think this strategy would help mitigate the impact of going second. On turns where I go first they can just Alpha Strike along with the rest of the army and try to pick off those straggler units as mentioned earlier. This tactic wouldn't work nearly as well with Company Veterans because they don't have enough speed to redeploy after their initial task is completed.

 

Hey look at that, you guys got me excited about a unit that I had previously written off. lol. I'll probably be raiding my bits box tonight to see if I can scrounge up any spare Plasma Pistols. 

Edited September 7, 2017 by ghost_9pm

[defl0]

 

Vanguard Vets

 

2 x chain sword is actually one of the best horde clearing units in our codex pt per pt. They stack almost identical compared to aggressors. Also Thunder Hammer van guard are the best tank hunters in the codex pt per pt.

 

Check out the math on PETEHAPPENS.com

 

 

 

The problem is you need to complete a charge and survive overwatch to actually do their thing, not mentioning dudes attacking back. They might do comparable s4 as aggressors on the move, but them needing melee makes them way worse. Also you mention consolidating backwards to regain chapter tactics. You can't; you have to end up closer to the nearest enemy unit 

 

 

Not following you. Why is this difficult? 

 

With SftS you can deploy 9" away and move 12". Your target is usually bubble wrap. And you HQs block overwatch. 

[defl0]

 

Defl0 I'll give Thunder Hammers another shot in some practice rounds. Maybe it's just my luck but it seems even with Lias hanging around I get a lot of misses with them. I think even if the math is on their side they still run into other problems. The main one being is that they are melee only. If you're close enough to get into melee then you're also close enough to take small arms fire from your opponent. A Lascannon or ML on the other hand, can sit a distance and be immune from those weapons (at least until the enemy closes in). I also know that a lot of people point to the flat 3 damage as being a plus, but I don't mind the D6 damage so much because it also has the benefit of the higher upside. I know it's basically gambling but at least there's a chance to get that clutch roll of a 6 and knock out that knight. It's always an easy command point decision to re-roll the 1 damage result when you need 3-4 to kill something.

 

Yeah. I think of the thunder hammers as my erase button. They exist to kill a single nasty unit. They are obviously far less useful against msu armies of all low value targets. But if yu have a magnus or the like to erase, they are very killy. 

[defl0]

Company Vets w/Plasma (4 x Plasmagun, 1 x Combi-Plasma): 147 Points. The cheapest/cost effective plasma delivery. If you are using Lias this is probably your best bet as he can offset their mobility issue by allowing them to deep strike.

 

Vanguard Veterans (10 x Plasma Pistol): 160 Points. Next best choice in terms of cost/effectiveness. These boys have the advantage of their own delivery system (Deep Strike), and they are highly mobile (Jump Pack). Drawbacks are range (Only 12" total range, whereas the other options have 24" or 30" ranged for single tap at least). If you couple move with double tap, these have the best (24") vs the Company Vets (18"). That being said, technically Hellblasters with Assault plasma have the highest, at their own drawbacks (30"+D6").

 

Hellblasters w/ Plasma Incenerator (Cheapest option x 5): 165 Points. Most durable option AND strongest weapon. I look at these as a compromise between the above two choices. Effective range is better than Co Vets, but not as good as Vanguards (on the move). They also have the best weapon (that delicious -4), and they have 2 Wounds. That being said, they have no delivery method other than SFTS.

 

Ok. So my issue is 147 pts for 5 plasma guns simply isn't competitive and that's as good as it gets for vets... 29.4 pts per 3+ plasma gun is SOOOOO far away from something like a scion with a plasma gun. 

[Jacques Corbin]

I miss being able to take Thunderfire Cannons in units of 3.

[MajorNese]

I miss being able to take Thunderfire Cannons in units of 3. I mean, this edition they are ok, as I average 7-8 S5 shots per turn, and range of basically table, and needing no Line of Sight is good. It just does not mash hordes like it used to. That said, the gunner being able to repair the gun, or another vehicle, is good. Currently I park a Twin Lascannon and Missile Launcher Venerable Dreadnought nearby. It is a good combo.

The TFC is still a fun unit, but traded raw horde killing for versatility. Mine rarely did much with just the cannon, but the techmarine and gun are good countercharge/speedbump units. The techmarine repairs either his own gun or a nearby dakka vehicle, and once the enemy gets close, uses flamer/plasma/servo arms to get things done. Also hilarious, the gun is a separate unit, and can soak up overwatch as a result or block a small entry for a round. Ditching the TFC and bailing out in a nearby dakkaback (read: the one he repaired all game) is also a nice surprise move. Lots of options, but the intended main use of the gun hasn't been overwhelming for me so far.