Preparing for Death Guard

[Brother Hellion]

This week I've fought against a Deathguard list featuring a lot of pox walkers, plague marines, a lord of cantiagon, that guy with the bell, A "Deffy" and a heldrake. It was no shame but I beat it no less with only loss of one model. However, with the forthcoming codex, I do feel a little less confidante to face this list again unless I've made some changes to include wolfscouts for character assassination.

[Kasper_Hawser]

This week I've fought against a Deathguard list featuring a lot of pox walkers, plague marines, a lord of cantiagon, that guy with the bell, A "Deffy" and a heldrake. It was no shame but I beat it no less with only loss of one model. However, with the forthcoming codex, I do feel a little less confidante to face this list again unless I've made some changes to include wolfscouts for character assassination.

 

That is utterly unbelievable Brotherblur, that you won only losing ONE model? I'm sorry, the thought right now is BS.

 

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/09/death-guard-meet-myphitic-blight-hauler.html

 

In other news, got more information on one of the new plague engines, something called Myphitic Blight Hauler. This is not the new plague tank we've seen, but apparently is a fast attack choice. It may not be THAT fast, but that's not the doozy. It's packed with weapons for such a small engine and as per Nurgle theme, will be ignoring the heavy weapon penalty, though its natural BS is 4+, along with Disgusting Resilient saves. But best part of it I feel is its "cover save" aura which is reminicent of the old venomthrope. Now those footslogging poxwalkers are actually going to get another save along with their disgusting ones, though to be fair, most dakka weapons are AP-1 anyway. But the plaguemarines with 2+ saves? Dear God!

 

I wonder how the additional cover would stack with terminators though. If their save is already a 2+, against an AP0 weapon, would that mean they can't fail since even if they roll a 1, the +1 modifier from cover save would turn it into 2+?

In other news, got more information on one of the new plague engines, something called Myphitic Blight Haule, sda, along

[Karhedron]

IIRC a 1 to Save always fails just like in previous editions. That doesn't mean that cover is useless for TEQs as they will still be saving on a 2+ against things with AP-1.

[DanPesci]

IIRC a 1 to Save always fails just like in previous editions. That doesn't mean that cover is useless for TEQs as they will still be saving on a 2+ against things with AP-1.

 

This is also what id presume, but probably worth to double check when the save modifier is applied (before or after dice roll). As far as i m aware cover save doesnt have the strange ordering mechanic that to hit rolls do, but i dont have rules to hand so am not 100%

[Nharvey89]

There seems so much negativity in this thread, I for one look forward to the challenge. I have a few people in my group who are playing death guard (pre DG codex) and it hasn't been real trouble to beat them, play your pack with all having its roll, soften them up and then strike hard at key points. The new codex is going to bring new challenges certainly but just means the pack has to get smarter. While the armies with codex have had a buff and are certainly a tougher opponent I haven't found it has made any of them insta win

[wilkco]

I disagree that it is negativity it is just putting out ideas on the best way to defeat them and issues we will face. The New DG codex will add new and different challenges to the space wolves army however I think even while we still wait for our new codex to come a lot of opponents will underestimate us. 

 

the Death Guard will mean moving away from our CC goodness and having to move to a slightly more shooty side of our army's but this will bring things like small units of GH and WG with special weapons and Bjorn and others buffing behind them. Also with Njar and rune priests will also help with smite and jaws to kill of the slow movers as well

[Bulwyf]

I also would like to know how you beat anyone with losing only one model. Were you using three baneblades?

[spacepup]

@kasper long fangs with lascannons and plasma cannons, twin assault cannons razorbacks, meltas, helfrost from my dread, massed bolter fire.

 

I was able to banish Gulliman from the field with one hellfrost shot and him failing saves... it was comical.

[wulfgar hammerfist]

Most of the DG stuff doesn't seem too bad. It's mainly figuring out how to deal with Mortarion. If you get the first turn against him, before his psychic buffs are in place, you stand a far better chance of bringing him down with concentrated lascannon fire. I'm not a math hammer guy so I don't know the exact math to figure out the average number of shots you'd need.

 

If you don't get first turn, then things become more difficult as he'll probably get warp time and maybe a -1 to hit buff. Rune priests and culexus will help here. You'll also want to be wary of casting up since his pistol can hit units in an 18" line from the target back to him.

 

I think my current list, with a tweak or two, will be okay against DG. I will know soon enough.

[Karhedron]

Most of the DG stuff doesn't seem too bad. It's mainly figuring out how to deal with Mortarion. If you get the first turn against him, before his psychic buffs are in place, you stand a far better chance of bringing him down with concentrated lascannon fire. I'm not a math hammer guy so I don't know the exact math to figure out the average number of shots you'd need.

 

Alas this once again illustates the alpha-strike nature of 8th edition. In ramping up the kill-rate of the game, they have made the first turn's firing almost overwhelmingly potent.

 

As for average number of shots, before any buffs, he has 18 T7 wounds and a 3+/4++/5+++ save. Assuming BS3+, you would need on average 35 Lascannon shots to bring him down. Rerolls make that slightly easier. A squad of Long Fangs will struggle to kill him over the course of a whole game, even if they are never attacked and get clear shots every turn. :(

 

Bjorn could do some decent damage if he pulls off a charge but he had better hope it is enough to bring Morty down as he would likely be "Silenced" before he got to strike a second time.

[Nharvey89]

Takes about the same amount of shots to take out a shield dread when math hammered. My mate is buying him and I am quire excited to see what he takes ☺️

[spacepup]

The amount of mortal wounds on a axe/shield dread would be an issue as well as the attacks back. But if the axe/shield dread got to swing first that could put a nice dent in his wound counter.

[Nharvey89]

Talking Las cannons bs 3 on the turn we pop smoke comes in at over 35,mortal wounds could eat them quicker. I am contemplating building a gun line with a couple axe dreads in front and a iron priest to top them up, or just see how many wulfen it takes to eat him lol

[Bulwyf]

I wonder if the humble Whirlwind could be brough back for this? Plop two in the back line and leave your assault units in the back to support the gunline for the inevitable termie/mortarion deep strike.

[wilkco]

ajax, njar in termi and a rune priest in termi armour deep strike next to plus a squad of WG  with th/ss  he should be dead with in one turn with that amount of smite and jaws should but a big dent in his wounds then charge every thing in to finish him off.  if need be also use a long fang or razor to plink some of as well however if he is sensible will have a unit in front to stop the gun line picking him off.

[Closet Skeleton]

 

I've actually beat lists with Magnus and Gulliman in their respective armies using exclusive space wolves list. It's a matter of target saturation. Making them roll many dice is bound to make them fall. I remade my army after the release of the Iron Wolves. So the amount of razorbacks, rhinos full of pissed off space wolvesis bound to make my opponent roll lots of dice.

 

You must have busted out every heavy weapon you had. I seriously doubt you defeated either using massive yiffs.

 

You're just being overly timid

 

Guiliman is far from hard to kill with a little luck if your opponent actually exposes him. Charging Hammernators will do so easily, it just takes 3 failed 3++ saves and space marine players fail 3 3+ saves all the time (just like they also pass far more than that on occasion).

[Karhedron]

ajax, njar in termi and a rune priest in termi armour deep strike next to plus a squad of WG  with th/ss  he should be dead with in one turn with that amount of smite and jaws should but a big dent in his wounds then charge every thing in to finish him off.

OK, let's try Arjac, 10 TH/SS WG and a Wolf Priest to give rerolls to hit. That's 30 Attacks hitting on a 4+ with a reroll, wounding on a 3+ rerolling 1s, saving on a 4++, inflicting 3 wounds each ignoring on a 5+++. Assumning no Buffs, that is 16 wounds so Morty is not quite dead. In practice, Arjac's attacks will probably finish him.

 

But that is 750 points of models to take out 450 points of Morty and it relies on you making a 9+ charge out of Deep Strike. You can chuck them in a Land Raider Crusader for more reliable delivery but that reduces the squad size to 8 so you definitely won't be killing in one round unless you have softened him up a bit first and now you are spending around 1000-ish points.

 

In order to be reliable, Arjac + Hammernators need about twice as many points spending on them as the unit they are trying to target.

[Garreck]

Call me a fatalist or intellectually lazy but that's precisely why I write off games against primarchs. I'll play them...it's fun and thematic. And if the dice go your way and you play a perfect game and the scenario is right, you can win. But primarchs represent too much "capability" in too few points to reliably compete with using conventional means. I still think that's right and okay, but it has obvious implications for armies that lack similar capability dense units.

 

And it's not that you can't kill the primarchs. It's just that you have to dedicate too many points and too many shots and often times optimal position in doing so. Meanwhile, the whole rest of your opponents army is starting to work you over.

[Jarl Deathwolf]

I watched a battle report earlier today where the Salamanders faced off against Mortarion. They managed to bring down the plague Primarch, primarily through overcharged plasma guns and lascannons, backed up by the reroll from a Captain. It wasn't even a particularly large number of such shots, though admittedly he failed a few more 4++ saves than is statistically average. I wouldn't recommend trying to assault him off the board, though the Blizzard Shield Dreadnought or Wulfen might give a good account of themselves.

 

Here is the report, if you want to see Mortarion in action:

 

[Lars the Red]

So, I know this is a little off topic. But, did you guys see the plague brethren up for pre-order? With those, the dice and how much they put into Mortarion, I'm hoping that means we'll get the same kinda love when our codex drops. It may be a little rough until then, but after that we should have some real awesomeness to drag back to the fang.

[Brother Hellion]

I also would like to know how you beat anyone with losing only one model. Were you using three baneblades?

Actually its a funny story. *sits down and tells a story*

 

So I began the day painting my wulfen squad when a new player came to my game store looking to get more practice in. So I shrugged and said I'd give his army a go since I've been looking to test my skills against. We agreed to 2k points with his aforementioned list and mine of 2x TWC decked out with stormshields, Rune priest riding beside them, 2x Razorbacks with Assault cannons each caring a six man squad of GHs with plasmagun/combi-plasma, A land speeder packed with two heavy flamers, And my signature Stormwolf flyer where my Wulfen, a wolf priest and one five man squad of Greyhunters were chilling. 

 

We decided on a simple game of kill points since my opponent wasn't familiar with the new game missions. We set up like normal and I got first turn due to my small deployment. I moved my TWC and Razorback near some buildings in the center to create a fire lane to widdle down some poxwalkers. Meanwhile my flyer gets up and close to the heldrake to blow it out of the sky. Unfortunately, he's rather good at rolling those 5+ saves which kept that bird flying throughout the game. 

 

Next, he tries to swarm over my flyer with 2x plague drones and that heldrake as he advances his pox walkers followed by his plague marines and his lord of contagion, psker, and bell caller shot calling in the back. The psker got perils and took three mortal wounds. Here, he gets unlucky due to failing to wound with most of his shooting. So my turn comes on, and I use this opportunity to deploy my wulfen, greyhunter squads and wolf priest out in full force to add firepower to the assault cannons to mow down the poxwalkers to just one remaining squad of five. My TWCs move up ready to mop up the closest units in proximity. 

 

Yet when it came time to assault, only my wulfen were able to strike against the forces of Chaos via CC. Everyone else failed their charges and I just slumped my head in shame at that. Still the wulfen did their job as they creamed a squad of eight plague marines then collided with the lord of Contagion to keep him pinned. So when his turn to came he pulled half of his remaining forces all up on my wulfen: Throwing the heldrake, one of the plaguedrones, the last remaining squad of plague marines, That "deffy", and the bell guy. ( He spent most of his shooting at my TWC who were able to absorb the shots thanks to their stormshield save, completely ignoring everyone else. His psyker blew himself up again with a perils of the warp. My runepriest was completely fine.) The last remaining poxwalkers tried to kill a squad of my GHs but didn't' anticipated me making all those crazy saves. He also sent a plaguedrone after my wolfpriest who just kept it busy. 

 

During the combat, I spent 2cps to counter attack during his turn to finish off his lord of contagion and smack down the heldrake and the "Deffy". But one of his plague marines got a lucky strike in which claimed a wulfen. Well, Death throne kicks in and that wulfen smacks up the heldrake down to one wound before being taking off the field. 

 

After that, my opponent concedes the game and I graciously accepted. For the next hour, I spent time explaining to him how his strategy fell apart, since he asked me nicely. 

 

And there you have it. My one game against Deathguard where I lost only one model (wulfen) due to my opponent's lack of experience and bad strategy. 

 

PS: my landspeeder was worthless that fight. I started with it so far away and forgot to move it for a turn.

[Guest]

If I can say, I see a bunch of suggestions on how to deal with mortarion without considering his support units like the deathshroud that will help him out.  Deathshroud can absorb a wound, bloat haulers can add 1 to armor saves, etc etc.

 

I suggest we collect a list on how DG are running mortarion and finding a proper way to counter-attack next game.

[Kasper_Hawser]

OK Brotherblur, sorry for calling BS on your statement. Now that you explain it, seems more plausible although barely even with the guy's inexperience. Somehow I think your opponent forgot about his "free mortal wound" abilities, like the Lord of Contagion's 4+ mortal wound fart to everyone around him, or the plague casters also inflicting a free mortal wound when rolling 7+ in his pychich test, which should have happened since you said he periled quite a bit.

 

There seems so much negativity in this thread, I for one look forward to the challenge. I have a few people in my group who are playing death guard (pre DG codex) and it hasn't been real trouble to beat them, play your pack with all having its roll, soften them up and then strike hard at key points. The new codex is going to bring new challenges certainly but just means the pack has to get smarter. While the armies with codex have had a buff and are certainly a tougher opponent I haven't found it has made any of them insta win

 

@ Nharvey, I don't think there's too much negativity, although I certainly started this thread feeling very pessimistic. I just didn't get the same vibe of cheese as when the Codex SM, Codex GK and Codex CSM came out. Out of the three, Codex CSM was by far the most difficult to fight against by virtue of its buffed up psychic table and powerful strategems which really "fixed" CSM old issues like mobility getting into combat and actually hitting like a ton of bricks in both shooting and combat. Codex SM and GK were also powerful but I still gave a very good and somewhat satisfying fight out of it despite losing. And even before they came out, their Strategems, Relics and new units didn't really make me panic unlike now, in fact I managed to kill the Grand Master in a baby carrier in my very first game.

 

For Codex DG, my panic button has been off the charts. For me, each army should have its weaknesses that can't really be replaced so that others can have a chance to chip at that angle. For DG, I've always expected them to be slow, tough and lethal from short range to medium range. What I didn't expect was the free mortal wounds all over the place, as well as the potential to turn your chaff poxwalkers into walking plague marines. Their synergy is VERY good without thinking too much, and REALLY DISCOURAGES ASSAULTS straight away unless you are CERTAIN you can wipe out a unit in 1 turn.

 

This wouldn't be an issue for either a horde army who wouldn't worry about losing a gaunt or boy to a mortal wound or a very good gun line army like what Space Marines, Imperial Guard and even Tau can do these days. Actually whatever gunline Space Marines can do, Space Wolves can do as well, having access to nearly everything except Centurions. Problem is, how many of us actually use a gunline Space wolves army? Using a gunline means sacrificing our powerful Wulfen or Stormwolves or TWC for those who roll with those of us  overgrown mutts. For me, I ALWAYS use Grey Hunters and BCs in my list, using just Spearhead to max out heavy support and farm CPs just doesn't sit right with me.

 

That being said, the solution is there and I'm going to test it out before and after DG codex comes out, shifting my list back to Long Fang heavy and tank heavy, at the expense of my terminators and wulfen. For my Close Combat anchor, I'll put Bjorn and Murderfang/Wulfen on escort duty while maybe using a couple of wolf scouts to go for objectives and maybe put some plasma shots into his backyard. I've yet to use a Vindicator, may as well give it a go.

 

Funny thing though, my Index and Battlescribe lists Vindicator as T7, but almost everyone says its T8.

 

If I can say, I see a bunch of suggestions on how to deal with mortarion without considering his support units like the deathshroud that will help him out.  Deathshroud can absorb a wound, bloat haulers can add 1 to armor saves, etc etc.

 

I suggest we collect a list on how DG are running mortarion and finding a proper way to counter-attack next game.

 

Calderson is right guys, do not think of countering Mortarion in a vacuum. It isn't just Deathshroud, think of the psychic spell that makes him untargettable. And remember that nearly all Death Guard also automatically heal 1 wound per turn.

[Closet Skeleton]

If I can say, I see a bunch of suggestions on how to deal with mortarion without considering his support units like the deathshroud that will help him out.  Deathshroud can absorb a wound, bloat haulers can add 1 to armor saves, etc etc.

 

I suggest we collect a list on how DG are running mortarion and finding a proper way to counter-attack next game.

 

 

Its impossible to collect that list since the codex isn't out. There's just preview battle reports like the above mini-wargaming one (where both players were noobs and forgot Mortarion's auras most of the time and the primarch still died despite randomly being allowed to swat away an ironclad without being struck).

 

But most of the guys on the chaos forum are confused as to how to keep Mortarion alive and finding Deathshrouds expensive and hard to get in the right place.

 

 

But that is 750 points of models to take out 450 points of Morty and it relies on you making a 9+ charge out of Deep Strike. You can chuck them in a Land Raider Crusader for more reliable delivery but that reduces the squad size to 8 so you definitely won't be killing in one round unless you have softened him up a bit first and now you are spending around 1000-ish points.

 

 

I should hope that it takes 1000 points to reliably kill a 470 point model without taking much damage in return, in practice you'll have lost a few terminators before the fight happens but Mortarion will also be hurt. My experience with super heavies is that killing one with a few infantry hammers isn't a problem at all, its killing the next two after your hammers are depleted where things get to be close.

 

Mortarion has a degrading profile, so even if he just about survives and kills some of your army in return you could still easily be winning.

 

Long Fangs are great but Mortarion is only t7 so Grey Hunters and Blood Claws can still takes critical wounds off him. Over-charged plasma and melta will wound him on 3s.

[Karhedron]

Long Fangs are great but Mortarion is only t7 so Grey Hunters and Blood Claws can still takes critical wounds off him. Over-charged plasma and melta will wound him on 3s.

I think you have hit the nail on the head here. If you obsess about Morty to the extent that you dedicate twice his value in points to try and kill him, your opponent has already won the head-game.

 

Treat Morty like any other target and chip off wounds opportunistically where you can. Focus him with heavy weapons only if he becomes a priority. Above all, remember to play the mission.

 

I had a fun game against Stealers last night. My army performed well and I wiped out most of my opponent's army but I nearly lost because the game hinged on holding a single objective which turned out to be the one deep in my opponent's deployment zone. I had a long run to get there and only managed to snag the objective when my Hellblasters rolled a 6 for their Advance after I spent a CP on a reroll.