Preparing for Death Guard

[Bulwyf]

So I'm going up against a friend's DG list that he's already warned me will have Morty in it.

 

This is the list I'm going to use. Appreciate any feedback/criticism.

 

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Wolves) [109 PL, 1999pts] ++

+ HQ +

Bjorn the Fell-handed [14 PL, 267pts]: Heavy flamer, Saga of the Warrior Born, Twin lascannon, Warlord

Njal Stormcaller in Runic Terminator Armour [9 PL, 153pts]: 2. Tempest's Wrath

Ulrik The Slayer [7 PL, 110pts]

+ Troops +

Grey Hunters [6 PL, 95pts]: 5x Chainsword
. Grey Hunter Pack Leader: Power sword
. 4x Grey Hunter w/Bolt Pistol
. Grey Hunter with Special Weapon: Bolt Pistol, Plasma gun

Grey Hunters [6 PL, 95pts]: 5x Chainsword
. Grey Hunter Pack Leader: Power sword
. 4x Grey Hunter w/Bolt Pistol
. Grey Hunter with Special Weapon: Bolt Pistol, Plasma gun

Grey Hunters [8 PL, 125pts]: 5x Chainsword
. Grey Hunter Pack Leader: Chainsword
. 4x Grey Hunter w/Bolt Pistol
. Grey Hunter with Special Weapon: Bolt Pistol, Plasma gun
. Wolf Guard Pack Leader: Storm shield, Thunder hammer

+ Elites +

Wulfen [13 PL, 231pts]
. 2x Great frost axe
. 2x Thunder hammer & Stormshield: 2x Storm Shield, 2x Thunder Hammer
. 4x Wulfen
. Wulfen Pack Leader: Frost claws

+ Heavy Support +

Land Raider Crusader [17 PL, 316pts]: Hunter-killer missile, 2x Hurricane bolter, Storm bolter, Twin assault cannon

Predator [9 PL, 190pts]: Twin lascannon
. Two Lascannons: 2x Lascannon

Whirlwind [6 PL, 101pts]: Hunter-killer missile, Whirlwind castellan launcher

+ Dedicated Transport +

Razorback [5 PL, 122pts]: Storm bolter, Twin lascannon

Razorback [5 PL, 122pts]: Storm bolter, Twin lascannon

Rhino [4 PL, 72pts]: Storm bolter

++ Total: [109 PL, 1999pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

[Kasper_Hawser]

First of all, I'm honored by you Bulwyf, that you saw fit to bump this thread back to relevancy. Nice to see that my topics aren't always forgotten and merely repeated later. I still haven't had success against Death Guard since I made this thread in 2017, but frankly, I don't look for games with them as even without Mortarion, I find them boring to play against, in the end, it's just them grinding up the board and I still don't have enough dakka to take them down before they reach my frontlines.

 

Then again, the DG player in my meta has a habit of using 3 hellforged contemptors as opposed to mass poxwalkers, so maybe my problem is not enough lascannons, which your current list is perfectly suited for.

 

However, assuming the DG player is more horde than MCs, I think you have a little too many lascannons and not enough dakka. As Karhedrouk suggested earlier, I would recommend changing the Twin Lascannons to Twin Assault Cannon. You don't really need a Rhino as you can choose to outflank one of your 3 Grey Hunters, though if you do that, do it for objectives not for actual damage. With the freedup points from changing from TW Lascannons to TW Assault Cannons, as well as the removed Rhino, i would add another Long Fang Squad with Missile launchers. You already have the LRC which I assume is for the Wulfen. Instead of LRC though, I would recommend the Stormwolf with just two twin heavy bolters.

 

Also instead of Ulrik, I think you should have a Battle Leader for reroll wounds. Bjorn already provides reroll 1s and he can run relatively quick to catch up with Land Raider and Wulfen if you want him as CC support.

 

Just a comparison of your source of heavy weapons  vs my recommendations

 

Bulwyf list                                                      Kasper list

Bjorn (2 lascannnon shots)                            Bjorn (2 lascannnon shots)

Predator Anihilater (4 lascannons shots)       Predator Anihilater (4 lascannons shots)

LRC                                                                Stormwolf

 - 1 Twin Assault cannon (12 shots)                 - 2 Twin Heavy bolters  (12 shots)

 - 1 Multimelta (1 shot)                                     - 2 lascannon shots

 -  2 hurricane bolters (12-24 shots)                - Twin Hellfrost Cannon (2 melta shots or 2D3 S6 shots)

2 Razorbacks (4 Lascannon shots)               2 Razorbacks with TWAC (24 shots)

                                                                       Long Fang squad with 3 missile launchers 

                                                                          - 3 Krak Missile or 3D6 frag shots

 

Firepower total:

Heavy weapons                                                Heavy Weapons

= 11 Lascannons +1 Multi melta                      = 8 Lascannons shots + 2 Hellfrost + 3 Missile launcher

=12 shots                                                         = 13 shots

Anti-Infantry                                                      Anti Infantry

= 12 Assault Cannon + 12-24 S4AP0               =12+12 Assault Cannon + 12 Heavy Bolter + 3D6 Frag missile + 2D3 Hellfrost shots               

= 24-36 shots                                                   =41 - 60 shots

 

Hope this analysis helps. Of course you may just like to play LRC and it has worked for you before, whereas for me, I just don't trust bolter shots these days even against T3. But I think my suggestion will give you more dakka without sacrificing the hard hitting firepower.

[Gherrick]

IMO, the best anti-horde unit we have are the aggressors (boltstorm version). Outflank a full unit, combat squad them on deploy, and watch that horde melt from 18". With T5, they are very durable vs small arms, better than wulfen, in my experience.

[Kasper_Hawser]

IMO, the best anti-horde unit we have are the aggressors (boltstorm version). Outflank a full unit, combat squad them on deploy, and watch that horde melt from 18". With T5, they are very durable vs small arms, better than wulfen, in my experience.

 

True, but Death Guard don't hurt you by small arms. They hurt you with mortal wounds. Still, I think they are a valid counter, just not against Death Guard in particular who can fart out mortal wounds which are the bane of single wound marines and even Primaris.

 

Plus to get the full effect, they need to be standing still. and even then, it'll be S4 vs T4/T5 for most part which is why I prefer to spam the Twin Assault cannons.

[Bulwyf]

First of all, I'm honored by you Bulwyf, that you saw fit to bump this thread back to relevancy. Nice to see that my topics aren't always forgotten and merely repeated later. I still haven't had success against Death Guard since I made this thread in 2017, but frankly, I don't look for games with them as even without Mortarion, I find them boring to play against, in the end, it's just them grinding up the board and I still don't have enough dakka to take them down before they reach my frontlines.

 

Then again, the DG player in my meta has a habit of using 3 hellforged contemptors as opposed to mass poxwalkers, so maybe my problem is not enough lascannons, which your current list is perfectly suited for.

 

However, assuming the DG player is more horde than MCs, I think you have a little too many lascannons and not enough dakka. As Karhedrouk suggested earlier, I would recommend changing the Twin Lascannons to Twin Assault Cannon. You don't really need a Rhino as you can choose to outflank one of your 3 Grey Hunters, though if you do that, do it for objectives not for actual damage. With the freedup points from changing from TW Lascannons to TW Assault Cannons, as well as the removed Rhino, i would add another Long Fang Squad with Missile launchers. You already have the LRC which I assume is for the Wulfen. Instead of LRC though, I would recommend the Stormwolf with just two twin heavy bolters.

 

Also instead of Ulrik, I think you should have a Battle Leader for reroll wounds. Bjorn already provides reroll 1s and he can run relatively quick to catch up with Land Raider and Wulfen if you want him as CC support.

 

Just a comparison of your source of heavy weapons  vs my recommendations

 

Bulwyf list                                                      Kasper list

Bjorn (2 lascannnon shots)                            Bjorn (2 lascannnon shots)

Predator Anihilater (4 lascannons shots)       Predator Anihilater (4 lascannons shots)

LRC                                                                Stormwolf

 - 1 Twin Assault cannon (12 shots)                 - 2 Twin Heavy bolters  (12 shots)

 - 1 Multimelta (1 shot)                                     - 2 lascannon shots

 -  2 hurricane bolters (12-24 shots)                - Twin Hellfrost Cannon (2 melta shots or 2D3 S6 shots)

2 Razorbacks (4 Lascannon shots)               2 Razorbacks with TWAC (24 shots)

                                                                       Long Fang squad with 3 missile launchers 

                                                                          - 3 Krak Missile or 3D6 frag shots

 

Firepower total:

Heavy weapons                                                Heavy Weapons

= 11 Lascannons +1 Multi melta                      = 8 Lascannons shots + 2 Hellfrost + 3 Missile launcher

=12 shots                                                         = 13 shots

Anti-Infantry                                                      Anti Infantry

= 12 Assault Cannon + 12-24 S4AP0               =12+12 Assault Cannon + 12 Heavy Bolter + 3D6 Frag missile + 2D3 Hellfrost shots               

= 24-36 shots                                                   =41 - 60 shots

 

Hope this analysis helps. Of course you may just like to play LRC and it has worked for you before, whereas for me, I just don't trust bolter shots these days even against T3. But I think my suggestion will give you more dakka without sacrificing the hard hitting firepower.

 

I tried both lists. He stole initiative in each game. Turn 1 Morty was in my deployment and it was brutal. As you guys know I also play DG so I know what he can do if you can't shoot him off the table by turn 2 at the latest. Second game with your list went slightly better for me against his plague marine and poxwalkers but it didn't matter. If Morty can get your deployment and in among your vehicles it is just brutal.

 

The thing I keep coming back to as I plug away with my SW in 8th as more time goes on without our codex is that we are a massive handicap until we get our own codex. The other armies have their own stratagems, tactics, army special rules, spells, objective cards, relics, etc. We have almost nothing so far.

 

The temptation to set my Wolves aside until we get our codex is strong. I'm not a guy that's hung up on win/loss ratio but even the most happy go lucky fluff player wants to feel like he's got an equal chance of winning every game. I haven't felt that way about SW in months.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Not much for me to say except "there there......."

 

Be strong bro, at least you are able to swing the other way with another army and enjoy from that angle. I'm stuck with wolves, and I'm really reluctant to even borrow a friend's army just to break the monotone.

 

Your list and my list isn't designed against bloody Primarchs, Knights, and Baneblades. Maybe it'll be ok against the golden bananas, but for big monsters, both CC and ranged? I doubt even Bjorn is enough as a counter charge unit. 

 

Still honored that you bothered to try my suggestions. Hope you had enough dice to roll the assault cannons. Also I hoped the Stormwolf gave you some added mobility, although small consolation as Mortarion can fly too. Not sure what his maximum move is though.

 

Did your opponent also use some CSM sorcerors to roll CSM powers? If so, shame on him.

[Bulwyf]

Not much for me to say except "there there......."

 

Be strong bro, at least you are able to swing the other way with another army and enjoy from that angle. I'm stuck with wolves, and I'm really reluctant to even borrow a friend's army just to break the monotone.

 

Your list and my list isn't designed against bloody Primarchs, Knights, and Baneblades. Maybe it'll be ok against the golden bananas, but for big monsters, both CC and ranged? I doubt even Bjorn is enough as a counter charge unit. 

 

Still honored that you bothered to try my suggestions. Hope you had enough dice to roll the assault cannons. Also I hoped the Stormwolf gave you some added mobility, although small consolation as Mortarion can fly too. Not sure what his maximum move is though.

 

Did your opponent also use some CSM sorcerors to roll CSM powers? If so, shame on him.

 

I take it you  haven't played against Morty yet. On his first tier he has 12 inch movement. You can use an index DP or a CSM sorc to Warptime him. You set Morty up the max 9 inch you can in deployment, move him his 12 inches then Warptime him. That's 24 inches and now he's  a charge away from you on first turn. And once he gets there...it is brutal. Mortal wounds are handed out like candy.

[Kasper_Hawser]

 

Not much for me to say except "there there......."

 

Be strong bro, at least you are able to swing the other way with another army and enjoy from that angle. I'm stuck with wolves, and I'm really reluctant to even borrow a friend's army just to break the monotone.

 

Your list and my list isn't designed against bloody Primarchs, Knights, and Baneblades. Maybe it'll be ok against the golden bananas, but for big monsters, both CC and ranged? I doubt even Bjorn is enough as a counter charge unit. 

 

Still honored that you bothered to try my suggestions. Hope you had enough dice to roll the assault cannons. Also I hoped the Stormwolf gave you some added mobility, although small consolation as Mortarion can fly too. Not sure what his maximum move is though.

 

Did your opponent also use some CSM sorcerors to roll CSM powers? If so, shame on him.

 

I take it you  haven't played against Morty yet. On his first tier he has 12 inch movement. You can use an index DP or a CSM sorc to Warptime him. You set Morty up the max 9 inch you can in deployment, move him his 12 inches then Warptime him. That's 24 inches and now he's  a charge away from you on first turn. And once he gets there...it is brutal. Mortal wounds are handed out like candy.

 

 

Nope, I make it a point to almost never those which we normally consider "Lord of Wars". However, what you describe isn't unknown to me and is precisely WHY I don't want to play them as against the above, I have almost no counter. And everyone CSM player bloody "Cheats" by having a CSM sorceror propel Morty forward. If it was just Death Guard, we at least have a chance to aim our lascannons at him. With Morty, we have no chance unless we feed him cheap chaff like fenrisian wolves bubble wrap, and then counter charge him with Bjorn or something. Even then, his farting mortal wounds could potentially hurt your conter charge before you even swing.

 

Sigh, no counter at all for Morty. At least SM have scouts to extend the movement denial beyond deployment zone.

[Bulwyf]

My local meta is usually pretty good about those LoW games. The general rule of thumb is unless it is a competition don't bring one unless the other player agreed and is bringing their own. Or just wants to try to beat yours.

[Kasper_Hawser]

I'll fight Daemon Primarchs the day I finally build myself a similar super unit, be it Knight, Baneblade or Guilliman himself. Actually with the rumored Freeblade character coming, maybe I can for the first time in my gaming life, try fielding an ally and LOW at the same time, assuming the costs for the current Knights decrease somewhat or the rules become a lot better.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Well the wolf codex is out, and I'm about to take the plunge by taking on the new Death Guard. No Mortarion but almost definitely will have Typhus and poxwalkers, which means I will most likely be facing AT LEAST one poxwalker blob which can potentially go up to T5 with Typhus and corresponding spellcast. He did promise not to go overboard with the Hellforged contemptors so on the heavy side, I'll probably be facing that cute blight crawler (the small one with debuff and buffs) and the flying drones.

 

For this match, I'll try bringing my Repulsor and Primaris (3 intercessors squads, 1 Inceptor squad with 4 in it, 1 Hellblaster squad), supported by trinity of Wolf Lord, Wolf Priest, Rune Priest and usual Long Fangs. If you are wondering why I'm bringing Primaris as my battleline troops, well, I feel that I need the 2 wounds of the Primaris in order to counter the inevitable Mortal Wound farts. Rather than lose one marine per mortal wound if I use my MSU grey Hunters.

 

Hope it'll be enough. Basic plan is the Repulsor thins the horde, Long Fangs slows or take down his Rhinos, Hellblasters either outflank or go inside Repulsor until the DG reaches optimum range. Rune Priest will act as look out in case my opponent uses terminators of either kind so I can use Chooser of the Slain. Wulfen will be the speed bump and counter attack to terminators as well, to prevent the pox squad or mass cultist squad from reaching lines to early. Wolf Lord will also be counter assault. Priest with power fist will heal.

 

Just curious, what do you think is best relic and warlord trait for this sort of game? I'm leaning towards Saga of the Bear for my Wolf Priest and Frost Fury for my Wolf Lord.

[Karhedron]

Saga of the Bear  strikes me as underwhelming. I would be tempted to either go for Saga of the Wolfkin for extra attacks or Saga of the Beasthunter for taking down assorted Daemon-engines.

 

Our 3 best Relics are Armour of Russ, Frostfury and Wulfen Stone. It depends whether you feel you need help with putting down models before they reach you, striking first when they do or buffing nearby units to fight better. Armour of Russ on a Rune Priest can be a handy way to give all your characters a 4++.

[Kasper_Hawser]

 

Saga of the Bear  strikes me as underwhelming. I would be tempted to either go for Saga of the Wolfkin for extra attacks or Saga of the Beasthunter for taking down assorted Daemon-engines.

 

Our 3 best Relics are Armour of Russ, Frostfury and Wulfen Stone. It depends whether you feel you need help with putting down models before they reach you, striking first when they do or buffing nearby units to fight better. Armour of Russ on a Rune Priest can be a handy way to give all your characters a 4++.

 

 

Hmm, maybe as long as my characters all have Jump Packs, I may as well try Saga of the Beastslayer for once. Although I take it mainly to take down plague marines and eventually Typhus rather than Daemon prince or vehicles. then again, I expect some hellbrutes in my upcoming battle so the powerfist of the Wolf Priest will make an impact too.

 

Hmmm, I think I will put Saga of the Beastlayer on my Lord who has a Thunderhammer, while the wolf Priest holds the Wulfen stone. Rune Priest will hold the Armour of Russ.

[Kallas]

Hmm, maybe as long as my characters all have Jump Packs, I may as well try Saga of the Beastslayer for once. Although I take it mainly to take down plague marines and eventually Typhus rather than Daemon prince or vehicles. then again, I expect some hellbrutes in my upcoming battle so the powerfist of the Wolf Priest will make an impact too.

 

Hmmm, I think I will put Saga of the Beastlayer on my Lord who has a Thunderhammer, while the wolf Priest holds the Wulfen stone. Rune Priest will hold the Armour of Russ.

Just remember that Beastslayer only works vs Vehicles/Monsters, so it won't be buffing you against Plague Marines/Typhus. It will work against Magnus, who is a Monster (Keyword, and figuratively!)

[Kasper_Hawser]

 

Hmm, maybe as long as my characters all have Jump Packs, I may as well try Saga of the Beastslayer for once. Although I take it mainly to take down plague marines and eventually Typhus rather than Daemon prince or vehicles. then again, I expect some hellbrutes in my upcoming battle so the powerfist of the Wolf Priest will make an impact too.

 

Hmmm, I think I will put Saga of the Beastlayer on my Lord who has a Thunderhammer, while the wolf Priest holds the Wulfen stone. Rune Priest will hold the Armour of Russ.

Just remember that Beastslayer only works vs Vehicles/Monsters, so it won't be buffing you against Plague Marines/Typhus. It will work against Magnus, who is a Monster (Keyword, and figuratively!)

 

 

Nuts forgot about that. Oh well, I'll change the situation if I see a depending on how much Hellbrutes, Rhinos and Daemon princes he brings vs mass Poxwalkers and plague marines.

 

Have to save my deny the witch for Putrescent Vitality. Depending on number of poxwalkers, that power MUST NOT GO OFF! Hopefully the Talismanic shield strategem will prove useful. Can't believe the templars have a much better strategem, outright denying on 4+.

[Kallas]

Have to save my deny the witch for Putrescent Vitality. Depending on number of poxwalkers, that power MUST NOT GO OFF! Hopefully the Talismanic shield strategem will prove useful. Can't believe the templars have a much better strategem, outright denying on 4+.

Well, Templars are much worse off than Wolves overall, and they don't get access to any Denials if they're running pure Black Templars (and a pure army should absolutely be a reasonable competitive choice!).

 

Putrescent Vitality (especially combined with Typhus's buff) is pretty nasty, for sure. Keep your reroll handy, and maybe pack a Psychic Hood?

[Kasper_Hawser]

 

Have to save my deny the witch for Putrescent Vitality. Depending on number of poxwalkers, that power MUST NOT GO OFF! Hopefully the Talismanic shield strategem will prove useful. Can't believe the templars have a much better strategem, outright denying on 4+.

Well, Templars are much worse off than Wolves overall, and they don't get access to any Denials if they're running pure Black Templars (and a pure army should absolutely be a reasonable competitive choice!).

 

Putrescent Vitality (especially combined with Typhus's buff) is pretty nasty, for sure. Keep your reroll handy, and maybe pack a Psychic Hood?

 

 

Hmmm, for once maybe I'll squeeze in a psychic hood. Really need everything I got to minimize the threat and synergy of Typhus and his poxwalkers.

 

Noted on the Templars, I actually counted the strategems of almost every marine faction, whereas the individual chapters like DA, BA and SW have a total of 26-27 strategems (Space Wolves have 27, BA and DA the same), a single space marine chapter has only 20 strategems in total. A lot of them repeat itself (honor the chapter, only in death does duty end etc), but I have to say that the Space Marines individual chapter ones are very solid with the possible exception of bolter drill of the Imperial Fist. The Raven Guard in particular is one that i tear my hair out when I see Aggressors/Hellblasters appearing and double tapping my lines, along with Shrike.

[PeteySödes]

Our DG player in the area loves his DPs so i'd be using beastslayer all day. Some recommendations:

 

Consider flyers to zone his likely many characters but be well aware of who has the plague flamer things. Armor of russ can be useful since they have ways of negating charges from a fight order standpoint so again be mindful of who can do that. If they do take morty don't get target fixated. Cripple the plague mortars if you can, they get way worse at the lower damage profiles.

 

I'll keep thinking and add other stuff as I remember. :P