Surviving in these dark times.

[Brother_Gneecapper]

I own the space marine codex, I was pretty excited by alot of it. I was disappointed by our lack luster chapter tactic and warlord traits. I liked our stratagem, overall in review of the codex I felt Black Templar were maybe a little behind their other codex brothers but the overall balance didn't appear to be terrible.

 

Codex Chaos Space Marine comes out and that's when World Eaters completely outclassed us in everything we do, somethings I expect but giving them a relic that allows that blew our stratagem out of the water is one of the things that bothered me. 

 

Now I see Codex Death Guard and I wonder to myself, how does one expect any marine that isn't Raven Guard or Ultramarines supposed to stand a chance against their Chaos counter parts? Death Guard with all the they get WAY out classes Black Templar as a melee force, I'd say it out classes the entirety of the Space Marine book with all the stuff it can do to just tack on mortal wounds, add +1 to their wound rolls or add to their toughness making them extremely survivable too.

I don't want to play an Imperial soup type army to be competitive, I was hoping I could do it with a mainly Black Templar force but the way the stuff is shaking out it seems like I'm required to run Girlyman for his stupid buff and then surround him with razorbacks or Celestine bombs to have a serious chance against stuff like this. 

 

I just came back in 8th, I was very excited but already seeing my army pounded into the dust in terms of balance at the start of the edition is very off putting, curious what others thoughts are in this subject. Am I just being all doom and gloom doing math hammer and need to face Death Guard myself once the book drops to judge accurately or are they really going to be as unstoppable as they seem on paper?

Edited September 7, 2017 by Brother_Gneecapper

[Ciler]

I may be confused there but do tell me how a chapter tactic that works when 12" or more away from the enemy makes RG a great melee army ?

[MasterDeath]

From what I see atm, DG will have some problems with tanks. Mortal wounds are not that good on 10+ Wound models and cheap anti-tank is not in the DG list, at least as far as we know.

[Honda]

We are the only chapter that comes with ZEAL.

 

All other buffs pale in comparison to the overwhelming effect of a full measure of ZEAL poured out upon the enemy.

 

"I am Grimaldus, Reclusiarch of the Black Templars and I approve of this message"

[Brother_Gneecapper]

I may be confused there but do tell me how a chapter tactic that works when 12" or more away from the enemy makes RG a great melee army ?

 

 

They are separate chains of thought there, I was saying that Raven Guard and Ultramarines are the only competitive space marines list (judging by tournament results). I will take a stab at that argument though, -1 to hit more than 12 inches away means that they are more likely to get into 12" range which is a requirement if you intend to get into melee / charge range. The more bodies that make it the more attacks / abilities of those bodies. With Shrike units can reroll their charge, with their stratagem they can infiltrate their good melee units right next to you if needed. Now that you mention it, I do think Raven Guard is a superior melee force to Black Templar too. 

 

I'll even make the argument that the Ultramarines are a better melee force, they can take a tactical squad shoot you and then charge and attack you. Once it's their turn again and they no longer desire that unit to be tied up, they will pull out of combat and shoot away any survivors. They also have LOADS of special characters to provide buffs, a chapter relic which puts the others to shame and their warlord trait gives you command points for days!

 

My original intention was not to draw comparisons to the different chapters of space marines' melee viability. I mentioned that Black Templar (a melee focused marine group) cannot compete with Death Guard in melee, let alone shooting or overall survivability. The survivability one is a given based on fluff, I'll concede the shooting part as well but they're better in every phase of the game than us on paper currently.

Edited September 7, 2017 by Brother_Gneecapper

[Stefan]

I don't think Black Templars are that weak.  We can take Crusader squads and set them up as MSU and still kit them out with good firepower.  Load up a 5 man squad with plasma and put them in a razor back, and you have a pretty dangerous fire base.  We can also set up a melee crusader squad so we can screen our gunline and set up countercharges if we want.  Just need to be more creative, but I don't believe we're that down the ladder.  Maybe against psyker spam, but that's something everyone has some problems with.  

[CrystalSeer]

To beat this type of stuff, you need to focus on the larger picture. Plinking away with mortal wounds is amazing, unless it's going on units with a ton of wounds who don't care. Land raiders are great for this, as they dish out tons of fire. You can survive a round or two easy in the transport while thinning their numbers.

 

My personal favorite is dreadnoughts, as they can Wade through fire and target units both with cc and good shooting attacks.

 

Really, it comes down to the specific army. Khorne does cc better than us, surprise surprise. But, we can easily outmaneuver and outfire most berserker lists. Nurgle is resilient, that's their thing. But they have a really hard time dealing with armor.

 

Black Templar is not a cc army, it is a balanced shooty army that does cc better than other Marines.

[Sete]

With a CT that gives a negligible buff to CC.

We are in an awkward position with our CT. You say we are a balanced army, I say we are a weak one. Without our IC, no use to run BT.

Edited September 7, 2017 by Sete

[Brother_Gneecapper]

To beat this type of stuff, you need to focus on the larger picture. Plinking away with mortal wounds is amazing, unless it's going on units with a ton of wounds who don't care. Land raiders are great for this, as they dish out tons of fire. You can survive a round or two easy in the transport while thinning their numbers.

 

My personal favorite is dreadnoughts, as they can Wade through fire and target units both with cc and good shooting attacks.

 

Really, it comes down to the specific army. Khorne does cc better than us, surprise surprise. But, we can easily outmaneuver and outfire most berserker lists. Nurgle is resilient, that's their thing. But they have a really hard time dealing with armor.

 

Black Templar is not a cc army, it is a balanced shooty army that does cc better than other Marines.

 

I get what you're saying, if I drop the melee focus and play balanced it does work better however I don't believe Black Templars have ever been sold as a "balanced" force. In their original rule set, they advanced toward the enemy to get into melee quicker when they suffered shooting losses. All of their vows from 4th ed favored melee, their characters favor melee. 

 

If I wanted to play a "balanced" force, I would have gone to the other marines chapters. I wanted to be the zealous bunch with swords and axes that run faster toward the sissies which are shooting them from behind a wall of "safety".

 

If you play "balanced" at that point it really only makes sense to use Black Templars as a detachment in a larger Space Marine force, ie a vanguard detachment of Templar (vanguards and term's deep striking w/ reroll on the long charge) added in to support a larger balanced marine force because most of the other chapters do shooting much better than Templar do.

Edited September 7, 2017 by Brother_Gneecapper

[Honda]

The past is past.

 

Instead, we have morphed into a force that uses all the tools available to the Imperium to CRUSH the enemy, because at the end of the day, the real question is do you prevail.

 

You may want style points for certain dismounts or two and a half flips, but at the end of the day, most people want to win. If that means using all of the tools available to us, so be it.

 

Our CTs allow us to charge better than any other chapter. Use that to your benefit.

[Kastor Krieg]

+ SURVIVING?! WE THRIVE! +

[CrystalSeer]

One of the first bits of fluff I remember reading from BT, was a bit about Templar repeatedly falling back before an oncoming horde of berserkers.

 

The initiate was indignant at the Marshall, stating it was disgraceful to fall back before the enemy.

 

But on the final push, the enemy, depleted by overlapping fires and the strain of extending their line so far in to enemy territory, fell prey to a furious counter assault by the Knights of Dorn, and were destroyed to a man.

 

The Marshall explains that the desire for the honor of combat must be tempered by knowledge of the foe and sound reason.

 

The Emperor has blessed you with both blade and bolter. Denying either is heresy.

[Marshal Wolfhart]

Considering Death Guard, they can spam mortal wounds all they want, as long as the points costs are reasonable it won't break a thing.

The melee force/use your tools/but i dont wanna-debate is a horse beaten to death more often than even 40k can stand in several threads.

Let the Death Guard get their codex, play a game or five against them, see the results. Then come back and review.

 

Black Templars are not a top notch army, considering highly competitive play. However outside of assassin spam and Guilliman's Golden Boys i don't see a lot of reason for us to lack too far behind. As long as we remain with the codex chapters we won't be a dedicated melee army, however if that was what you wanted from the beginning you should have gone for Berzerkers anyway. If it's the army's fluff you're after this whole discussion is moot.

 

Can we for once not get news of other children's shiny new toys and disgrace ourselves in showers of salty tears?

I'm not intending to be condescending, i just don't see facts to back up these gloom and doom claims all the time. And it really drags me down how people complain and whine at things i can't see any proof for.

Rant over,  I'll get back to painting Templars now :P

[Brother_Gneecapper]

Considering Death Guard, they can spam mortal wounds all they want, as long as the points costs are reasonable it won't break a thing.

The melee force/use your tools/but i dont wanna-debate is a horse beaten to death more often than even 40k can stand in several threads.

Let the Death Guard get their codex, play a game or five against them, see the results. Then come back and review.

 

Black Templars are not a top notch army, considering highly competitive play. However outside of assassin spam and Guilliman's Golden Boys i don't see a lot of reason for us to lack too far behind. As long as we remain with the codex chapters we won't be a dedicated melee army, however if that was what you wanted from the beginning you should have gone for Berzerkers anyway. If it's the army's fluff you're after this whole discussion is moot.

 

Can we for once not get news of other children's shiny new toys and disgrace ourselves in showers of salty tears?

I'm not intending to be condescending, i just don't see facts to back up these gloom and doom claims all the time. And it really drags me down how people complain and whine at things i can't see any proof for.

Rant over,  I'll get back to painting Templars now

 

 

I'll reserve my final judgement until I have actually played with them however they have posted quite a bit and I have played enough games I can see the effectiveness of what they're getting the main unknown right now is point cost which so far in most cases the Codex is a reduction of whatever is previously published.

 

I don't think it's crying salty tears when one attempts to bring up an objective discussion on game balance. Recent moves by GW seem like they want a balance but I think they're really only going for it across factions and not really at the <Chapter> level. We shall see, I also suspect it was possible Space Marines were the first released so that way when they do their eventual codex updates the Space Marines go first and end up towards the top again.

 

The negativity you hear in my tone is coming from a 10,000 PT army Black Templar player (kitted out with chapter shoulders and trinkets) who has played since 3rd edition who had long given up on the game being told that all armies would be viable and fluffy again, getting his hopes up and finding that isn't the case.

 

The reality of it is if I want to play in tournaments, they are "Raven Knights" or "UltraBlack Marines". I play mostly in pick up games and with my buddies but I was hoping to get back into the tournament scene again, I just have to accept my armies place in the current meta.

Edited September 7, 2017 by Brother_Gneecapper

[Ebon Hand]

I'm with Marshal Wolfhart on this. Black Templars are definitely viable, and it's no use agonizing over what other armies get and what we used to have.

 

I am not the greatest player and my collection is limited, so I feel like if I can eke out a win as defender on a death world vs 3 conscript blobs with Guilliman and 2 super-heavies and Dark Angel support with a list that wasn't even intended to defend then I think other people can too.

 

We have many things going for us: access to Stormravens, Imperial allies, one of the best tanks in the game (Land Raider Crusader), access to the entire Space Marine and Imperial Forgeworld armories, Primarus, good special characters and lots more.

 

Perhaps we aren't "competitive" in the tournament meta sense, but even in tournaments we are not the worst off. If tournaments are your main thing then why aren't you playing Imperial Guard or Stormravens or any other of the "meta" lists or play testing to counter them?

 

In the Black Templar forum, we have the minds some of the most dedicated and crafty Space Marine players at our disposal. Ask about how to counter something specific and we will put our minds together and find a way to beat it the Black Templar way. With tactics, righteousness, ZEAL, FIRE AND FAITH.

[Firepower]

Why lament when you can gorge yourself on such an ample banquet of spiteful resentment?  Such is the Templar way.

 

Also: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/337763-a-guide-to-slaying-the-heretic/

 

It wandered off topic now and then, but for those with fresh ideas, and in light of another traitor codex, that's a good place to put them.

Edited September 9, 2017 by Firepower

[CrystalSeer]

Another idea I'm playing with to counter smite-spam. Smite can only target nearest unit, so...

 

1. Take characters, my favorite is the forgeworld chaplain dreadnought.

2. Take honor guard and an apothecary.

3. Place character in front so smite has to target them...

4. Anytime character takes a wound, on a 2+ the honor guard can take a single mortal wound instead

 

Using this setup, it doesn't matter what they roll on smite, you lose one wound on your honor guard, and then the apothecary can either heal or bring them back as needed. Rinse and repeat until you have slain the filthy heretics.

[Helias_Tancred]

.... Black Templar is not a cc army, it is a balanced shooty army that does cc better than other Marines.

 

Hold on there cochise, the Blood Angel codex isn't out until November

 

On a serious note you're right! Even when our codex drops I doubt we will have access to all the shooty things you guys have, such as Centurions. Personally I feel the Black Templars are a solid army and the chapter tactic is worthy! Because of my fanboy lust for Sigismund and Grimaldus, and my coming around to the fact Hellbrecht is just awesome in 8th, I'm going to put together a modest Black Templar force to assist my Blood Angels in battle. I love you guys, and I know sometimes when you get your face smashed in a game a couple times its easy to get down especially when new stuff is releasing that may have "pet status"!?!?

 

So be it, they will get 4 feet of Imperial steel and a gallon of promethium for their remains, and NOTHING MORE!

Edited September 10, 2017 by Helias Tancred

[Firepower]

Kinda strikes me as funny, where I'm conversely wishing I ever managed to get my BA projects off the ground to have a properly rule-supported assault army and get back to my roots

 

But I will settle for sticking to my cantankerous stubbornous; shunning allies, stacking my army with swords over guns, chucking them at the impure and demanding that the dice yield to my will in spite of mediocre rules! :P

Edited September 10, 2017 by Firepower

[CrystalSeer]

 

.... Black Templar is not a cc army, it is a balanced shooty army that does cc better than other Marines.

 

Hold on there cochise, the Blood Angel codex isn't out until November

 

On a serious note you're right! Even when our codex drops I doubt we will have access to all the shooty things you guys have, such as Centurions. Personally I feel the Black Templars are a solid army and the chapter tactic is worthy! Because of my fanboy lust for Sigismund and Grimaldus, and my coming around to the fact Hellbrecht is just awesome in 8th, I'm going to put together a modest Black Templar force to assist my Blood Angels in battle. I love you guys, and I know sometimes when you get your face smashed in a game a couple times its easy to get down especially when new stuff is releasing that may have "pet status"!?!?

 

So be it, they will get 4 feet of Imperial steel and a gallon of promethium for their remains, and NOTHING MORE!

 

 

This is the part I think most people have trouble with. A crusader squad has the potential to take 3 attacks worth of specialist cc upgrades per 5 men, and a bunch of chainswords. Thats not bad, but you're looking at 5 guys with 2 weapons. This same squad can also take a combi-melta, meltagun, and multi-melta. Thats 3d6 worth of damage from shooting before you factor the bolters. Even if you go full fist, thats max 9 damage vs max 18 damage. That doesn't sound like a dedicated CC unit to me.

 

Now compare that to berserkers. First, they cost more. But second, their shooting options are basically plasma pistols or bolt pistol. They max out at 4 damage from their specialist shooting attacks. That means that they have to charge to do damage, so of course their charge has to be better. If its not, they cease to be an army. They also can not expect to realistically do damage against against armor or monstrous creatures in the shooting phase, whereas a crusader squad can tear them a new one. 

 

That's where I think the true strength of Black Templar in 8th lies: you can shoot something to hell, and then charge with almost everything. Hell, you can even be decked out for both. The only time you can't is if you advanced. That means you can do the full shooting damage of tacticals (better actually due to being able to take heavy/specialist weapons in 5 man squads), then charge in doing additional damage to the remainder before the enemy gets a chance to strike back. Pair this with the fact that you can charge out of rhinos and deep strike now, and your damage potential has gone up exponentially.

 

And that's just the crusader squad! Our chapter tactics make us twice as good at charging from deep strike, and my personal favorite, there's no more instant death! In 7th, I stopped playing with my Templar simply because we had a ton of cc characters that got one shotted by anything str 8 or higher. Now, I don't have to worry about that at all. It means all the other special rules we get actually get a chance to happen.

 

8th is amazing for us, because we get all the toys of the Codex chapters, still get a better troops choice, good chapter tactics, and our heroes are finally truly heroic on table.

[Firepower]

 

And that's just the crusader squad! Our chapter tactics make us twice as good at charging from deep strike

 

If I remember the math correctly, the odds of a 9" charge only goes from something like 44% to 55% with our CT.  "Twice" as good is kinda misleading, because dice math.  I've tried a hardcore DS assault approach using pods.  I wouldn't recommend it. 

 

Of all the issues with assault in 8th, the one big issue I keep running into with no simple remedy is a matter of game rules, not army rules: the ability to run away from a combat without punishment or chance of failure.  If you charge something that doesn't wanna be there, you have no solution to getting shot to bits the next turn whether you kill it or not.  The only way I can think of to avoid that is to be able to charge en masse and clear out enough of the board with that one phase of assault that there isn't a lot left in range to shoot you, or to be big enough/durable enough to survive the resulting onslaught of bullets and still have a punch to your assault afterward.  That's not easy even with very good melee units (which we don't really have).  

Edited September 10, 2017 by Firepower

[CrystalSeer]

You're correct as far as requiring massed assaults, unless you can isolate specific parts of the table. Essentially, there needs to be enough locked that if they withdraw little force remains to be projected.

 

The armies that can seem to get away with having enough units to make this not viable are also conveniently the armies that take significant casualties from hurricane bolters.

 

I'm going with twice because it's not a dependent probability. Probability of making either roll is the same, and you get to do it twice. I agree, it's not something to base your army strategy around, but definitely a nice to have.

[Ciler]

 

 

And that's just the crusader squad! Our chapter tactics make us twice as good at charging from deep strike

 

If I remember the math correctly, the odds of a 9" charge only goes from something like 44% to 55% with our CT.  "Twice" as good is kinda misleading, because dice math.  I've tried a hardcore DS assault approach using pods.  I wouldn't recommend it. 

 

Nope. The odds of rolling 9+ on two dice are actually ~28%(6 successful combinations out of 21 possible outcomes) without reroll and 44% with reroll (12 successful combinations out of 27 possible outcomes). So it's not exactly double, but it's still a substantial bonus.

[AlmightyWalrus]

And you're still more likely to fail than to make it. Our Chapter Tactic is horrifyingly situational.

[Ciler]

And you're still more likely to fail than to make it. Our Chapter Tactic is horrifyingly situational.

Well duh.

 

Charges from 9" are meant to be difficult to connect, that's the whole point of the charge roll, the farther you are the less likely that you'll make it. Our chapter tactics allow us the same chance to succeed a charge from 9" than any other chapter from 7", that's not insignificant.

 

And last I check no other chapter has a chapter trait that allows auto-success either. I don't see IF players bemoaning the fact that their chapter trait doesn't give them an automatic to wound success against buildings.