Surviving in these dark times.

[Frater Cornelius]

DG are not that good. They may have shiny models, that is true. However, when it comes to the crunch, they will not pull ahead too far. They will most likely be a slow shooty army. Granted, we do not know everything just yet, but going by the Index and the C:CSM book on top of what we know, they will be blasted away by an SM gunline.

 

However, judging by the amount of psychopaths running rampant in here, midrange and melee is probably preferred tactics. This should still work. You will need some long-ranged dakka though. Dreadnoughts with at least one gun-arm, a Land Raider an maybe Preds. Among the premier Chaos units are Obliterators, which have random strength and AP, but at least 7 IIRC, and plenty of shots, Hellbrutes, which will ignore -1hit pentalty for moving with the DG trait. Preds are also popular, seeing as they lack solid anti-tank at range. Havocs will be really good with DG due to the lack of movement penalty. Then there is that driving drone thingy with missiles and a MM, but it may not be better than a Hellbrute in terms of a heavy-weapons platform.

All those units need to be dealt with before you can punch the rest, hence the aforementioned shooty units. In terms of melee, Deathshrouds may seem scary, but you know what else is scary? Thunderstorm TDA. They will hand their arses to them. I would also not recommend deep striking, but instead softening them up and then assaulting them from a transport.

 

It is a bit generalized, but I hope you get the idea. Marines have plenty of re-roll options as well the Ancient for extra dakka and choppa. Marines will remain the more efficient army in terms of numbers. That, and you need dakka, even if it is just a byproduct of your choppy dudes (specials on Crusaders, heavies on Dreads).

 

You aren't a Khornate numbskull. You are a Marine. Do not rush into melee right away, but use strategy. We all have our place. The humble, and the mighty ;)

 

Also, use that ZEAL thing of yours. A bunch of screaming psychopaths can't possibly be wrong, can they :D

[Honda]

And you're still more likely to fail than to make it. Our Chapter Tactic is horrifyingly situational.

 

 

It is only situational if you never charge.

 

Please feel free to use any other set of chapter tactics that fits your style of play better.

 

No one is forcing you to use our chapter tactics.

[T-Rock]

As someone who has had great success (local meta) and got absolutely ROFLstomped off the table (NOVA Trios Event) I think some of the complaints/concerns expressed in this thread are lacking context. Before this discussion can be conducted in a meaningful way, we need to ask ourselves the following question...

 

What is your meta?

 

Based on this, you will arrive at one of two conclusions:

 

1. Your meta is very competitive. You frequently play against things like Guilliman & Celestine, smite spam, scrip spam, brimstone spam, or (insert current meta cheese here) in the majority of your games. If this is the case, no amount of tactical nuance or list building will make BT competitive. You will spend the vast majority of your games praying you don't get tabled or scrounging objectives while pulling your hair out. I ran a list that was cleaning up my local meta and got tabled in both of my games by turn 3 (scrip spam w/Guilliman & Stormraven spam) at NOVA. Let me assure you, having different chapter tactics will make ZERO difference in games like this. Look at the top lists at NOVA. CT don't even enter the equation. The only way to hang is to join the meta and play whatever broken models are the cheese de jeur. You will not have fun running BT in these games. Period. Most people who think the sky is falling and are endlessly complaining about our rules are suffering in this meta.
   
   OR
    
2. Your meta is more casual/thematic/narrative focused. Note: This does not mean you only play casual players or noobies. It means you play opponents who do not typically break the game to gain an advantage, exploit RAW, or Google auto-win lists. In this context, our Chapter Tactics are fairly solid. Until I went to NOVA, I had won my last 7-8 games against Orks, 1K sons, Deathwatch, Dark Angels, etc. and I was matching up with some very solid players running strong lists. These are games where strategy and a bit of luck matter more than your list. In games like this, Black Templar are very viable. You will have fun running BT in these games. Most people offering tactical advise in threads like this are offering it from this perspective.
    

Of course, this could all change based on FAQs and Chapter Approved. The important thing to keep in mind is that the meta changes and evolves faster in 8th than it ever has before. That could be good for us. Secondly, always be sure you and your opponent are clear on what your expectation is with the game. 

 

I struggled with this situation for half of 7th edition.  Eventually, I succumbed to the fact I had to play super competitive games with my Templars using UM/WS CTs and be satisfied that my skyhammer was at least reminiscent of Black Templar's fighting style. Trust me, I pulled my hair out for months prior to that trying to make BT work against the likes of Eldar and battle company lists. It wasn't worth the anguish.

Edited September 11, 2017 by T-Rock

[Schlitzaf]

 

And you're still more likely to fail than to make it. Our Chapter Tactic is horrifyingly situational.

 

 

It is only situational if you never charge.

 

Please feel free to use any other set of chapter tactics that fits your style of play better.

 

No one is forcing you to use our chapter tactics.

 

 

/Agreed. Also to beat dead horse and I know I have said this in a thousand different areas now but when you look at our Tactic, think of it is this way. 

 

"Best Tactical Squad Variant in the Game bar debatably Grey Hunters + Our Actual Tactic". How many Marine Armies do you see actually run their Tactical Squad Variant bar something like 7th Ed Demi-Companies? In other words. I'll explain it this way. Let us look at 'three' basic Tactical Variants, beside our own. 

 

CSM: No "Know No Fear", but like us have the versatility of Chain or Bolter. Additionally they can have 2 Heavy Weapons (or two Special) at 10 Man. Only Tactical Variant able to take Double Heavy in a Squad. They can get variety of Legion or God Bonuses, but then we get to more nuance, which will get a whole thread onto itself. They cannot Combat Squad, so they lack the flexibility of an Tactical Squad. And if they wish to do so, they take 2 Slots in a List. A CSM just likes ourselves can perform Firefight or Melee Role, as well provide cheap backrow. However like us they must choose between one during army construction.

 

Grey Hunters: Unlike a Crusader or CSM Squad they come with Bolter AND Chain. However unlike CSM, and ourselves they have no option for Heavy Weapons. Instead at 10 Men they can take Double Special. And if memory serves just like ourselves they lack Combat Squad. They do have equipment like Wolf Banner. But are more expensive on a Model by Model basis then our own Crusades. A Grey Hunter Squad can transition freely between a Firefight and Melee Role where our Crusader Squads are determined during unit Construction. 

 

Tactical Squad (Vanilla/DA/BA): Like Grey and CSM they must have 10 man Squads for Double Cool Weapon. However unlike Hunters or CSM, Double Cool is Heavy AND Special not Heavy/Heavy or Special/Special. This forces them at 10 Men into a 'divided' tactical role. But being able to Combat Squads helps ameliorate that to a degree. Tactical Squads are only Bolter Armed, meaning they function as cheap backrow or firefight. They cannot provide an appreciable help in melee. Forcing Tactical Squad players to look for other units as a linebreaker or as a counter assault element. BA with there Heavy Flamers also ameliorate this to a degree, but their Tactical are still Bolter Bros. So they are forced into a Firefight role. As with CSM Tactics do change this setup and issue at hand. 

 

The other three tactical variants (GK Strike, Deathwatch Vets and Intercessors), I'll talk about all three at the same time. Each of those squads clock in at 19-23 points a model. And in all three cases provide a reasonable element of Firefight, and Counter-Assaults, as well projection of Firepower (GK with StormBolters and Pyscannon, Vets with Frag Cannon and SIA, while Intercessors Bolter Variants are similar), each bring an acceptable amount of melee ability to the table. At 100 points approx. for 8-11 attacks or 5-7 Power Weapon attacks depending. In many ways these three units are more comparable to Crusader Squads than the actual Tactical Variants. 

 

Now our boys, Crusader Squads, if you are like me, this is the reason you play Templars. The ad hoc look, the disorganized organization. But all that aside. The first and foremost thing as Templars we have is our ability to take Heavy/Special at 5 Man. The only Tactical Variant able to do so. While a Devastator Squad is only around 11-12 points more for similar firepower, they are Heavy to Crusader Troops. Now let me iterate something here. I am comparing a Troop Choice to a Heavy Support and not immediately declaring the Heavy Support as 'Superior'. This edition especially, folks are forgoing troops and the battalion for detachments like the Vanguard or Spearhead. So our 5 Man MSU Heavy/Special we already deduce as an amazing unit. However there is more to it then that. 

 

The second variant is the 6-4 Crusader. Vs any other 10 Man Tactical Variant we will clock in atleast 8 points cheaper. That is two power weapons. Which nicely, our Crusaders can take two of. One on SB and we can take a PowWeapon instead of Heavy. If you may recall mentioning our Units are more comparable to the 20 point variant here is why. Take our Intercessor with PowWeapon. 104 Points. An equivalent point Crusader Squad w/ PowWeapon (5-3 Man) is 106 Points, 3 more attacks in Melee, and same number of PowWeapon attacks. For a GK Strike Squad which come in at about 21-25points if memory serves. Around 105-125 and take that same squad. Has 2-3 less power weapon attacks but nearly double its overall attacks. For Deathwatch its the same comparison. Now the obvious difference here is our shooting is far less exciting. 

 

However we can mix-match our weapons having couple Shotgun Neos (now we have 4 shots at 12 which become Str 5 at 6). Sense some guys will die to shooting anyways. Meaning while our overall firepower is worse. Its still acceptable assuming you mix and match a bit. So while we have to choose between backfield, firefight and melee for our Crusader Squads. We easily set ourselves up to do 2 quite well (Backfield have Heavy/Special, 3 Chain Bros. That is 9 Attacks from 5 man. Not amazingly large number but acceptable enough). 

 

So our squad has 2 acceptable configurations 5 Man MSU/Heavy Spec, 8-10 Man fire support, and finally we have our Tide Variant 13-15 or 20 Man. The 20 Man I won't discuss, due to personal bias. However the 13-15 Man, works well because here especially 'cheap' marine Variant shines. If you take 1-1 Neo/Init, our Marines are worth effectively 12 points. At 14 Man that is 3 Pow Weapon of saving. We aren't Orks so we don't have true immunity to Battle Shock. But we do have 2 ways to help mitigate and "Know No Fear". First of course is Cenobytes, 6 points easily fit into any BT List. The second is "Rites of War" (especially combined with our Relic, "Crusade Helm"). Giving our army around 21" of Battle Shock Immunity coverage. And those 13-15 man squads are still Space Marines so require some dedicated firepower to destroy or even dislodge. 

 

A 10 Man Hunter Squad comes to 140-150ish points. That 14 Man is 168-175ish points. For 4 more wounds. Or another way to look at it, for 28 points, you are getting 4 Marines. Is that a deal or what? everyone says take Vang over Assault Marines. Vang with Packs are 19 points, and a 8 Man is 152 (128 without). 25 Attacks total. Our Crusaders at 14 Man (for 168-175sh) are 29 Attack. For about 40 points. We have 5 more attacks and 7 more wounds, so we are effectively paying 40 points for an entire Squad. Remember how almost every Marine Army going Spearhead/Vanguard as noted earlier? We our comparing our basic RUN OF THE MILL troop unit to Elite and Heavy, some of the most efficient units point for point in the Vanilla Marine Dex, and not coming out that far behind. Next time you complain that our Tactics "Our just reroll charge". 

 

Finally we lack the versatility provided by combat squad, but being able to take a PowWeapon instead of HeavyWeapon helps ameliorate the issue of divided unit focus. This lost of versatility is perhaps via combat squading is perhaps the biggest strike against our Crusader Squads. But these squads able to singlehandly perform any one battlefield function, while also able to another to an acceptable level should not be discounted at all.

 

Don't forget its "reroll charge and best Tactical Squad Variant in the Game (bar debatably Grey Hunters due to their Bolter/Chain Combo)". The Crusader Squad might have lost some luster, but bar none, is one of the most 'efficient' units in the game in any configuration. 

Edited September 11, 2017 by Schlitzaf

[Ciler]

As someone who has had great success (local meta) and got absolutely ROFLstomped off the table (NOVA Trios Event) I think some of the complaints/concerns expressed in this thread are lacking context. Before this discussion can be conducted in a meaningful way, we need to ask ourselves the following question...

 

What is your meta?

 

Based on this, you will arrive at one of two conclusions:

 

1. Your meta is very competitive. You frequently play against things like Guilliman & Celestine, smite spam, scrip spam, brimstone spam, or (insert current meta cheese here) in the majority of your games. If this is the case, no amount of tactical nuance or list building will make BT competitive. You will spend the vast majority of your games praying you don't get tabled or scrounging objectives while pulling your hair out. I ran a list that was cleaning up my local meta and got tabled in both of my games by turn 3 (scrip spam w/Guilliman & Stormraven spam) at NOVA. Let me assure you, having different chapter tactics will make ZERO difference in games like this. Look at the top lists at NOVA. CT don't even enter the equation. The only way to hang is to join the meta and play whatever broken models are the cheese de jeur. You will not have fun running BT in these games. Period. Most people who think the sky is falling and are endlessly complaining about our rules are suffering in this meta.

    

   OR

    

2. Your meta is more casual/thematic/narrative focused. Note: This does not mean you only play casual players or noobies. It means you play opponents who do not typically break the game to gain an advantage, exploit RAW, or Google auto-win lists. In this context, our Chapter Tactics are fairly solid. Until I went to NOVA, I had won my last 7-8 games against Orks, 1K sons, Deathwatch, Dark Angels, etc. and I was matching up with some very solid players running strong lists. These are games where strategy and a bit of luck matter more than your list. In games like this, Black Templar are very viable. You will have fun running BT in these games. Most people offering tactical advise in threads like this are offering it from this perspective.

    

Of course, this could all change based on FAQs and Chapter Approved. The important thing to keep in mind is that the meta changes and evolves faster in 8th than it ever has before. That could be good for us. Secondly, always be sure you and your opponent are clear on what your expectation is with the game. 

 

I struggled with this situation for half of 7th edition.  Eventually, I succumbed to the fact I had to play super competitive games with my Templars using UM/WS CTs and be satisfied that my skyhammer was at least reminiscent of Black Templar's fighting style. Trust me, I pulled my hair out for months prior to that trying to make BT work against the likes of Eldar and battle company lists. It wasn't worth the anguish.

This. Plain and simple. BT struggle as much as any other faction against cheese lists, but they do fine against standard lists, and - i feel - even better than they did in V7 in the same situation (ergo, against non V7 cheese lists like centustar or demicomps, etc).

[Brother_Gneecapper]

As someone who has had great success (local meta) and got absolutely ROFLstomped off the table (NOVA Trios Event) I think some of the complaints/concerns expressed in this thread are lacking context. Before this discussion can be conducted in a meaningful way, we need to ask ourselves the following question...

 

What is your meta?

 

Based on this, you will arrive at one of two conclusions:

 

1. Your meta is very competitive. You frequently play against things like Guilliman & Celestine, smite spam, scrip spam, brimstone spam, or (insert current meta cheese here) in the majority of your games. If this is the case, no amount of tactical nuance or list building will make BT competitive. You will spend the vast majority of your games praying you don't get tabled or scrounging objectives while pulling your hair out. I ran a list that was cleaning up my local meta and got tabled in both of my games by turn 3 (scrip spam w/Guilliman & Stormraven spam) at NOVA. Let me assure you, having different chapter tactics will make ZERO difference in games like this. Look at the top lists at NOVA. CT don't even enter the equation. The only way to hang is to join the meta and play whatever broken models are the cheese de jeur. You will not have fun running BT in these games. Period. Most people who think the sky is falling and are endlessly complaining about our rules are suffering in this meta.

    

   OR

    

2. Your meta is more casual/thematic/narrative focused. Note: This does not mean you only play casual players or noobies. It means you play opponents who do not typically break the game to gain an advantage, exploit RAW, or Google auto-win lists. In this context, our Chapter Tactics are fairly solid. Until I went to NOVA, I had won my last 7-8 games against Orks, 1K sons, Deathwatch, Dark Angels, etc. and I was matching up with some very solid players running strong lists. These are games where strategy and a bit of luck matter more than your list. In games like this, Black Templar are very viable. You will have fun running BT in these games. Most people offering tactical advise in threads like this are offering it from this perspective.

    

Of course, this could all change based on FAQs and Chapter Approved. The important thing to keep in mind is that the meta changes and evolves faster in 8th than it ever has before. That could be good for us. Secondly, always be sure you and your opponent are clear on what your expectation is with the game. 

 

I struggled with this situation for half of 7th edition.  Eventually, I succumbed to the fact I had to play super competitive games with my Templars using UM/WS CTs and be satisfied that my skyhammer was at least reminiscent of Black Templar's fighting style. Trust me, I pulled my hair out for months prior to that trying to make BT work against the likes of Eldar and battle company lists. It wasn't worth the anguish.

 

This sums up my feelings on things very well. I tend to play alot in group 2 but my theorycrafting / mathhammer tends to take place looking at group 1 which is where the doom and gloom feelings come in.

 

I do think Templar will struggle against DG but we shall see, obviously sound tactics can offset some of the power of their book. They gave the DG an aura relic just like ours, so really they got pretty much all we got now less the heroic intervention and re-rolling charges along with a host of other nasty stratagems to use.

 

With the mention of stratagems, what stratagems have you found yourselves using most? There are only like 2 or 3 I see myself using with any frequency outside of dice re-rolling. (Our chapter Strat, the fight again strat and I've used the dreadnought one a few times). I dont have any Sternguard in my collection, but I'm told theirs can be quite effective.

[Medjugorje]

The past is past.

 

Instead, we have morphed into a force that uses all the tools available to the Imperium to CRUSH the enemy, because at the end of the day, the real question is do you prevail.

 

You may want style points for certain dismounts or two and a half flips, but at the end of the day, most people want to win. If that means using all of the tools available to us, so be it.

 

Our CTs allow us to charge better than any other chapter. Use that to your benefit.

but the past is always present. I going in love with my BT - now they arent the BT i used to love. Thats a sad fact.

[CrystalSeer]

 

As someone who has had great success (local meta) and got absolutely ROFLstomped off the table (NOVA Trios Event) I think some of the complaints/concerns expressed in this thread are lacking context. Before this discussion can be conducted in a meaningful way, we need to ask ourselves the following question...

 

What is your meta?

 

Based on this, you will arrive at one of two conclusions:

 

1. Your meta is very competitive. You frequently play against things like Guilliman & Celestine, smite spam, scrip spam, brimstone spam, or (insert current meta cheese here) in the majority of your games. If this is the case, no amount of tactical nuance or list building will make BT competitive. You will spend the vast majority of your games praying you don't get tabled or scrounging objectives while pulling your hair out. I ran a list that was cleaning up my local meta and got tabled in both of my games by turn 3 (scrip spam w/Guilliman & Stormraven spam) at NOVA. Let me assure you, having different chapter tactics will make ZERO difference in games like this. Look at the top lists at NOVA. CT don't even enter the equation. The only way to hang is to join the meta and play whatever broken models are the cheese de jeur. You will not have fun running BT in these games. Period. Most people who think the sky is falling and are endlessly complaining about our rules are suffering in this meta.

    

   OR

    

2. Your meta is more casual/thematic/narrative focused. Note: This does not mean you only play casual players or noobies. It means you play opponents who do not typically break the game to gain an advantage, exploit RAW, or Google auto-win lists. In this context, our Chapter Tactics are fairly solid. Until I went to NOVA, I had won my last 7-8 games against Orks, 1K sons, Deathwatch, Dark Angels, etc. and I was matching up with some very solid players running strong lists. These are games where strategy and a bit of luck matter more than your list. In games like this, Black Templar are very viable. You will have fun running BT in these games. Most people offering tactical advise in threads like this are offering it from this perspective.

    

Of course, this could all change based on FAQs and Chapter Approved. The important thing to keep in mind is that the meta changes and evolves faster in 8th than it ever has before. That could be good for us. Secondly, always be sure you and your opponent are clear on what your expectation is with the game. 

 

I struggled with this situation for half of 7th edition.  Eventually, I succumbed to the fact I had to play super competitive games with my Templars using UM/WS CTs and be satisfied that my skyhammer was at least reminiscent of Black Templar's fighting style. Trust me, I pulled my hair out for months prior to that trying to make BT work against the likes of Eldar and battle company lists. It wasn't worth the anguish.

 

This sums up my feelings on things very well. I tend to play alot in group 2 but my theorycrafting / mathhammer tends to take place looking at group 1 which is where the doom and gloom feelings come in.

 

I do think Templar will struggle against DG but we shall see, obviously sound tactics can offset some of the power of their book. They gave the DG an aura relic just like ours, so really they got pretty much all we got now less the heroic intervention and re-rolling charges along with a host of other nasty stratagems to use.

 

With the mention of stratagems, what stratagems have you found yourselves using most? There are only like 2 or 3 I see myself using with any frequency outside of dice re-rolling. (Our chapter Strat, the fight again strat and I've used the dreadnought one a few times). I dont have any Sternguard in my collection, but I'm told theirs can be quite effective.

 

 

I mainly use re-rolls, head the wisdom of the ancients, deny psychic powers, and the second charge. When I play my Imperial Fists, they get some use out of the auspex, but myTemplar tend to be in vehicles too much for that.

 

 

 

The past is past.

 

Instead, we have morphed into a force that uses all the tools available to the Imperium to CRUSH the enemy, because at the end of the day, the real question is do you prevail.

 

You may want style points for certain dismounts or two and a half flips, but at the end of the day, most people want to win. If that means using all of the tools available to us, so be it.

 

Our CTs allow us to charge better than any other chapter. Use that to your benefit.

but the past is always present. I going in love with my BT - now they arent the BT i used to love. Thats a sad fact.

 

 

I'm I missing something? I've played Templar on and off since 3rd edition, and I really don't recall them ever being an assault power house. They could rhino-rush with the best of them, but dedicated CC armies were still better at it. The only really fluffy thing I miss is the Vows, but you can largely get the same effects through character rules, stratagems, and/or chapter tactics. I certainly don't miss having to take casualties to be faster.

 

Essentially, what is it you actually want from the list that you can't do? I regularly run assault centric lists, the down side is a low model count and having to dedicate yourself to smaller areas of the board. I also find character support to be essential, as assault leaves very little margin for error, especially with the low number of attacks you see with astartes.

 

As someone who has had great success (local meta) and got absolutely ROFLstomped off the table (NOVA Trios Event) I think some of the complaints/concerns expressed in this thread are lacking context. Before this discussion can be conducted in a meaningful way, we need to ask ourselves the following question...

 

What is your meta?

 

Based on this, you will arrive at one of two conclusions:

 

1. Your meta is very competitive. You frequently play against things like Guilliman & Celestine, smite spam, scrip spam, brimstone spam, or (insert current meta cheese here) in the majority of your games. If this is the case, no amount of tactical nuance or list building will make BT competitive. You will spend the vast majority of your games praying you don't get tabled or scrounging objectives while pulling your hair out. I ran a list that was cleaning up my local meta and got tabled in both of my games by turn 3 (scrip spam w/Guilliman & Stormraven spam) at NOVA. Let me assure you, having different chapter tactics will make ZERO difference in games like this. Look at the top lists at NOVA. CT don't even enter the equation. The only way to hang is to join the meta and play whatever broken models are the cheese de jeur. You will not have fun running BT in these games. Period. Most people who think the sky is falling and are endlessly complaining about our rules are suffering in this meta.

    

   OR

    

2. Your meta is more casual/thematic/narrative focused. Note: This does not mean you only play casual players or noobies. It means you play opponents who do not typically break the game to gain an advantage, exploit RAW, or Google auto-win lists. In this context, our Chapter Tactics are fairly solid. Until I went to NOVA, I had won my last 7-8 games against Orks, 1K sons, Deathwatch, Dark Angels, etc. and I was matching up with some very solid players running strong lists. These are games where strategy and a bit of luck matter more than your list. In games like this, Black Templar are very viable. You will have fun running BT in these games. Most people offering tactical advise in threads like this are offering it from this perspective.

    

Of course, this could all change based on FAQs and Chapter Approved. The important thing to keep in mind is that the meta changes and evolves faster in 8th than it ever has before. That could be good for us. Secondly, always be sure you and your opponent are clear on what your expectation is with the game. 

 

I struggled with this situation for half of 7th edition.  Eventually, I succumbed to the fact I had to play super competitive games with my Templars using UM/WS CTs and be satisfied that my skyhammer was at least reminiscent of Black Templar's fighting style. Trust me, I pulled my hair out for months prior to that trying to make BT work against the likes of Eldar and battle company lists. It wasn't worth the anguish.

 

This is a really good point. What I adopted to beat cheese lists was the idea that Astartes don't really do all-comers lists. Most tourney cheese is based on taking the most under-costed units from each book and smooshing them together to get maximum output for minimum points. When that happens, Astartes can beat them, but you have to make different selections. You simply have to hard counter the cheese.

 

In 7th, I had a friend who jumped on the stormsurge and riptide bandwaggon. I rolled my eyes, and then played my grav spam imperial fists. We played 3 games, each time with me tabling him by t3, before we agreed to go back to playing actual games. In a standard game, that list didn't work well, because the model count was too low.

 

The other part that throws me off is that people blame GW for balance, while using rules designed by people other than GW. In every tournament scene I look at, they simplify scenarios, limit objectives, hell, even straight out invalidate certain armies' options, but still leave it open to faction abuse. This is not part of the rules, these are organized events. Alot of those alternate scenarios and objectives that got cut served to balance the game. Its not surprising that in a constricted environment the balance shifts.

[Gendo]

My two cents after playing about 20 games of 8th ed coming to the hobby late 7th:

 

At least for us, 8th ed has a different tempo as we can't rush to charge 1st turn out of the LRC and vehicles work differently this time around, after losing badly 15 games in a row I started to familiarise with my units and the game overall, playing tactically and very carefully as movement and Combat are what makes it or brakes it imo.

 

My list consists mostly of Crusaders (with spread out upgrades to make every unit capable) in transports and 4 HQs and every single opponent (Necrons, Orks, Nyds, Eldar) in the last few games conceded by turn 3-4, objective games or not, can't hold them with nothing on the table...

 

The big difference to me has been positioning and not rushing it, the charge will eventually come and if the opponent has better Combat units (Emperor forgive me) I'll fall back and dish out at least 40 shots at S4, 24 at S6 and the odd one from transports and supporting vehicles.

 

Key factors:

-Cover your back deployment from drops: I mostly have 1 Pred and 1 Ven Dread sitting still there, Dread is a big deterrent but if you really  want to take my mediocre Pred out please meet a huge Fist and an H.Flamer.

-Don't rush the charges.

-Have a flexible list.

-Play Black Templars.

 

Stratagem, CT and Relics are neat but they only add flavour to your play and can't win a game for you.

 

PS: Not talking about tournament lists here.

[AlmightyWalrus]

 

And you're still more likely to fail than to make it. Our Chapter Tactic is horrifyingly situational.

 

 

It is only situational if you never charge.

 

Please feel free to use any other set of chapter tactics that fits your style of play better.

 

No one is forcing you to use our chapter tactics.

 

 

Hm, in hindsight it's not that much more situational than the rest, Raven Guard, Salamanders, and Iron Hands excepted.

 

I'm not sure how a response that is more or less equivalent to "like it or get out" is contributing to the debate, though. Am I not "allowed" to take issue with problems? Do I have to like everything about our rules in order to play them or could I not play them while raising my concerns about our rules when such concerns arise?

 

I'll back out of the thread for a bit to stop it from going off-topic.

Edited September 11, 2017 by AlmightyWalrus

[CrystalSeer]

Another thing to note, Hellbrecht is a really good force multiplier for relatively few points. Most people have to spend 3 cp for the re-rolls that we get for free. He also comes with a +1 str bubble to boot.

 

It's hilarious when you run him with terminators for str 9 power fist attacks that re-roll to hit.

[Honda]

but the past is always present. I going in love with my BT - now they arent the BT i used to love. Thats a sad fact.

 

 

You married your girlfriend and now she's yours for the rest of your life. When she's 55, she won't look like she did when she was 25, but she'll still be your forever.

 

I'm not sure how a response that is more or less equivalent to "like it or get out" is contributing to the debate, though. Am I not "allowed" to take issue with problems? Do I have to like everything about our rules in order to play them or could I not play them while raising my concerns about our rules when such concerns arise?

 

 

Example 1: "Our rules are horrible!"

 

Example 2: "I've been struggling to pull off a win, What are you guys doing?"

 

Which of the above examples is more likely to initiate a debate?

Which example appears to be looking for a solution to an issue?

 

This forum isn't the place to just drop by and complain. If there's any doubt as to what Templars are about, you might consider reading this thread about expectations:

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/336854-on-being-a-templar/?hl=being+templar&do=findComment&comment=4826649

 

We want everyone to be comfortable here.

 

We want everyone to feel like they are free to contribute. The world isn't perfect and neither is 40K. There will always be challenges.

 

Our focus is on solving the challenges.

[Sete]

I might be missing the point of the linked post tho.

 

I'll wait until Warzone Armaggedon.

Clearly this release was just a bandaid for 8th edition.

 

DG is the first true release.

Edited September 12, 2017 by Sete

[Aegir_Einarsson]

When should it be? After chapter aproved that will be on december?

[Sete]

Next year for sure. Maybe spring?

[Ciler]

Another thing to note, Hellbrecht is a really good force multiplier for relatively few points. Most people have to spend 3 cp for the re-rolls that we get for free. He also comes with a +1 str bubble to boot.

 

It's hilarious when you run him with terminators for str 9 power fist attacks that re-roll to hit.

S10, actually. Helbrecht modifies the model's stat, not it's weapon's.

[CrystalSeer]

Is that actually a thing now? It's been multiply before adding for the last 2 editions.

[Ciler]

Is that actually a thing now? It's been multiply before adding for the last 2 editions.

No. This all stems from a simple confusion. The rule "multiply first, add second" applies when the same stat receives two bonuses at once.

 

Say a marine is next to Helbrecht (S+1) and next to "super booster" (S*2), his final strength is indeed 9.

 

But that's not the case here.

 

Helbrecht modifies the model's S first, then the *2 is used to determine the weapon's S. Helbrecht has no effect on the weapon's S.

 

This has been clearly FAQed in the designer's comments : 

 

Q: If a rule modifies a model’s Strength characteristic,

and that model is equipped with a melee weapon

that also has a modifier (e.g. ‘x2’), could you explain

the order in which the modifiers are applied to the

characteristics and the weapon’s Strength?

A: First you must determine the model’s current

Strength characteristic. [...] Having done this, you

then modify this value as described by the weapon’s

Strength characteristic.

 

The basic principle of multiply first add second has not changed, at all, it's just that people were using it wrong before and V8 has made a better job at distinguishing between boost to model stats and weapon stats.

 

And so, yes, hammernators near Helbrecht roll to wound at S10. That's wounding on 3+ on pretty much anything. I won't even bring up the topic of dreadnoughts that swing their power fist at S12 and contemptors at S14 and casually wound primarchs on 2+. Add a dreadnought chaplain to the mix for S16 and now it's a party.

Edited September 12, 2017 by Ciler

[TheOneTrueZon]

 

 

 Add a dreadnought chaplain to the mix for S16 and now it's a party.

 

Lest we not forget the humble Relic Leviathan is also hitting at S16 in CC.

[CrystalSeer]

That's a laugh riot.

[Honda]

And so, yes, hammernators near Helbrecht roll to wound at S10. That's wounding on 3+ on pretty much anything. I won't even bring up the topic of dreadnoughts that swing their power fist at S12 and contemptors at S14 and casually wound primarchs on 2+. Add a dreadnought chaplain to the mix for S16 and now it's a party.

 

 

 

Hellbrecht, a Contemptor, and a Leviathan walk into a bar...

[Jacques Corbin]

What is the ruling, actually? Is it less than 1", or 1" or less?

[Kisada]

played a 75 power level game.  My army isn't really set up for power level, I didn't have any power level lists prepared.  I'm not a tournament type of player.

 

My list:

(from memory) Helbrecht, EC, 10 man crusader (PF, melta, missile), 10 man crusader (combi plas, plas, las), 5 man crusader (combi plas, plas, plascan), 5 man terminators (4 TH, 1 LC), predator lascannons, LRC.

 

His list:

3 grand masters in dreadknight armor, storm raven, 2 storm talons.

 

TL:DR he crushed me. 

 

we played the open war deck.

Objective:  The comet.  Objective falls from sky in 3rd round.  Roll to see where it lands.  Player controlling it at the end of 5 wins.

Deployment was like front line assault but the arrow tips touch.

Twist: Warp storm.  +1 to psychic tests and deny test.  Double perils

 

I took down the stormraven.  Couldn't do enough to the 3 grand masters.  Psychic spells were hurting me ... and then this vortex of doom or whatever ... just smashed me on turn 3 when the comet landed right where my terminators, Helbrecht, and a lone crusader with ML was.  I tried our stratagem ... failed.  I re-rolled it ... failed.  

 

What could have changed the battle in my favor?  

If I made my charge with my terminators from DS and killed his warlord.  When I finally did get his warlord in combat he gate of infinity away.  

My EC made it into combat with a grand master but Helbrecht failed his charge so the EC was out of his bubble ... would the extra str matter? probably not, but the attacks from Helbrecht himself sure would've helped.

 

In the end I had about 7 initiates from the lascannon squad left ... they were too far from the objective to advance on it and steal the win with objective secured.  2 Storm talons and 3 grand masters weren't going to let them get off easy anyway.

 

Lessons ...

psychics and smite hurt ... being able to 50/50 deny 1 ability a turn at the cost of 1 command point is underwhelming.

not making charges sucks ... characters being left behind because they're the only ones that failed the charge also sucks (left Helbrecht kind of out in the open).

flyers are tough to take down with the units I have available in my collection.  

[Honda]

So, my first thought upon reading his list is, "Ok, so that's how it's going to be." He optimized his list to be super mobile, hard hitting, and flexible. There was also bonus random destructiveness.

 

You had to play with what you have.

 

Tough game anyway you look at it.

 

So the one thing I would comment on is this. Given the sort of upside down circumstances, what would have allowed you to meet this force more effectively? Taking three Storm Ravens so you could match his mobility?

 

"But I don't have three Storm Ravens", I hear you say. I know, I get it.

 

If you didn't make any tactical mistakes and it really comes down to if you had more choices in your crusade, then did he really beat you?

 

I'm not trying to play funny mind games, but if he didn't catch you at your best, is this game any more than something to learn from? What do you think would have happened if the SMOD (Sweet Meteor of Doom) had taken out a third of his forces vs. a third of yours?

 

I think one perspective we can always take is, "I may not win every game I'm in, but I can learn from every game I'm in." In my case, what I would be thinking about is, "If I faced the same list again, but knew it ahead of time, what would I do differently?" (Besides dodge the comet)

 

It's Ok. You got knocked down. Pick yourself up and say, "My turn." :)

[Kisada]

Just a correction ... the comet doesn't do damage when it drops down ... so it landing right where my troops and HQ were was a good thing because I was in control of it ... for half a turn before his psychics wrecked me.

 

The question you ask about what would I do different against this list if I played it again ... I really don't know ... I really felt a bit powerless against it.  One idea I had is to leave Helbrecht out of the LRC.  Create a gunline/wagon circle with my predator, LRC, and crusaders.  Hopefully with the High Marshal's ability to re-roll hits I would then cause enough damage to his forces.

 

Another thing would be target priority.  Killing the grand masters would have been better than killing the storm raven ... no grand masters on the ground and his storm ravens lose.