Lessons learned after some more games

[Gingerninja]

Good evening

 

So this weekend I played three games, two vs Tyranids and one against Necrons.

 

I'm very new to the game, it wasn't my first games, but my first with somewhat of a list I believed in.

 

I went with:

1 x Stormraven (Hurricane, MM, AC, Stormstrike M.)

1 x Xiphon

 

5 x Company vets (JP, combi-plasma and SS)

5 x Company vets (JP, combi-plasma and SS)

10 x DC (4 x TH, 4 x Power Axe & Chainsword, 2 x Chainsword & Bolt pistol)

 

1 x Chaplain JP

1 x Librarians JP

1 x Sanger priest JP

 

So random lessons:

Fliers are really good, especially the Xiphon. The one easier to hit against targets with FLY is awesome! Even without Fliers it's still 4 x lascannons and 3 x missile shots.

 

Protection against alphastrike is really important.

 

Never get charged by a Genestealer unit.

 

Even with 3 supporting characters DC ain't super. Against armies that can counter charge, they are pretty much dead. They worked okey against Necrons, managing to kill off 2 warrior units, 1 Lichfield guard unit and 2 HQ. But they were spread out over the map, so I killed them off one by one.

 

I played ~ 1600 points, so after two losses against Tyranids I decided to use my two 5-man CV in five 2-man groups instead to avoid my opponents where I didn't want them. By doing that they were hardly worth their points at ~190 / unit. When trying to deep strike them in with a captain to get re-rolls they didn't do close to enough to motivate running them like that.

 

I'll be working towards bringing 2-man CV to protect areas I don't want deep strikes in. But they will have cheaper gear, not combination plasma and SS. I will bring either 2 smaller DC units to get more flexibility (not loosing my main CC units if charged) or one smaller DC unit without TH and then a squad of VV with mixed weapons and SS. At least one unit need to be expendable, to bate my opponent in to doing things, opening him/her up.

 

Otherwise I'm pleased with my performance. I would have won my second match against the Tyranids if I would have had some cools, and waited out my opponent for another round.

 

Just wanted to share my thoughts.

 

Cheers

[Filius]

That sounds great! And: I always feel that loosing against Tyranids is not real loosing it's more like … hindsight in the inevitable.

 

But … two real questions:

1. With how many CPs did you start? (And any experiences wether that's too less, or so?)

2. How did your deployment look like (which units first, which later)?

 

Thanks a lot for sharing!

[Gingerninja]

Haha, still i wanted to get some revenge after Baal.

 

Okey I was stressed when I posted since I was on an airplane that just toke off. That's why the spelling is :cuss and I also saw I missed that I took a captain. I was allowed by my friends to use the upgrade captain to chapter master stratagem, to allow re-rolls on all misses.

 

I used 2 detachments. First 1 Vanguard and 1 Supreme Command detachment. Then when I slit up my CV into 5 squads of 2, I changed to 2 Vanguard detachments. So I got 5 command points and used 2 for upgrading my captain. 3 CP was a little to few, I could have used 1 or 2 more. But I did use them very sparsely. I made sure I only used them to re-rolls one dice when charging etc. Otherwise both armies I faced didn't have that much heavy shooting that threatened my units, so I didn't have to waste any CP when shooting. I also tried to save the CP to avoid perils with the libby or make sure he got his shield off.

 

Concerning my deployment, the first to games I deployed my DC with the 3 buff HQ on the table and the CV and captain in reserve. The first game I got 1th turn charged by Genestealers. I think you need to experience that to understand how far their threat range are, insane.

2rd turn I deployed more safe and jumped forward slowly. My opponent were just sitting in his corner under a Malanthrope. So my shooting didn't do that much. With Horror and Malanthrope, my stormraven was very ineffective. So I decided to charge the meat wall and then the Genestealers came in from reserves and countercharged and killed all my DC. Had I waited and not charged he would had to move and loose the hard to hit aura buff. And also slitting up his army so that it would have been more close. It did come very close thu. I made a stupid mistake which killed me the captain and 4 CV in overcharged plasma and then I didn't have to firepower to kill off the remaining 4 Genestealers and their HQ. But I lost with 1 victory point.

 

In the 3rd game against Necrons I just put up a big wall of CV to not let him teleport in a warrior blob to rapid fire down my Fliers. Then I put DC and HQ in reserve. He still teleported turn 1 with over half his army but only killed my captain and 2 CV squads. Thanks to poor range on his anti tank weapons I didn't loose any wounds on my Fliers and destroyed the 2 units he had that could really hurt me. Then I toke my reserves in in his deployment zone where he had 2 small warrior units with a HQ. Both easy to pick off with my DC and hurricane bolters. That was pretty much it. Then he had the other units in my deployment zone. Necrons are slow and I just shot alöt dead with my Fliers before charging the remaining Lichfield guard with a HQ and his Warlord. Last turn my HQ lefty DC units and when the for one objective each and DC contesting one. GG .

 

I did learn that positioning means a lot. Always thinking about threat ranges. Then it's also important to plan the movement with the Fliers so that they don't get to close anything to dangerous. For example, during the game against the Necrons. He had 3 warrior units. 1 decimated unit over watched me once, did nothing. The 20man one killed 1 CV unit (2man) and my captain in the first turn of shooting. Then they didn't shoot any more time during the game. All thanks to good positioning.

[Indefragable]

I am finding more and more that 8th is a High-Low edition where you want barebones cheap meat and super upgunned special units. The point of the game is to make your opponent waste effort on the meat so your special dudes can do work. However, as Space Martines who are "jack of all trades" that becomes harder to achieve.

 

Looks like you pick up some valuable experience. That is the biggest thing. Just keep playing.

[Ceril]

I always take 3 units of scouts for deepstrike protection.

Your company veterans would probably be worth it without SS, I think around 10 plasma shots are worth it. I run 5 or 10 plasma pistols and I've always felt they have a good targets. Amount depends on point level.

I agree on fliers, love them.

If you want to test something else than dc, try devastators or razorbacks (twin AC or lascannon). Both great units.

Culexus assassin have been handy. They are difficult to remove, immune to psychic powers (smite shield) and keeping enemy psykers less likely to cast.

[tychobi]

I am finding more and more that 8th is a High-Low edition where you want barebones cheap meat and super upgunned special units. The point of the game is to make your opponent waste effort on the meat so your special dudes can do work. However, as Space Martines who are "jack of all trades" that becomes harder to achieve.

 

Looks like you pick up some valuable experience. That is the biggest thing. Just keep playing.

Even more so when real cheese is involved and by that I mean horde tactics.  150 conscripts in front of 30 mortars,  200 brimstone horrors with 10 smites behind it,  Gulliman in a parking lot of razors with conscript meat sheild, there are many armies really push the "jack of all trades" and paying for it armies into the back of the pack.  If you can pack your nut in enough shell  .. .. . .  

[Bremon]

That's really the downfall of the battleforged list design. There's practically no rules at all, and cross-compatibility between armies is bigger than ever, which means the system is easier to break than previous editions I played. I'm having a ton of fun playing in a non-hyper competitive environment, but I sort of miss the old FOC; it was a bit too rigid maybe, but still seemed better than "screw it, take whatever" Primarch gunline +conscript bubble wrap BS.

[Aothaine]

 "screw it, take whatever" Primarch gunline +conscript bubble wrap BS.

 

I feel you. You can always just refuse to play people that bring those lists. I know I would. Not going to waste my time against a try-hard net-lister unless I'm gearing up for competitive play. That would be the only time I find it acceptable. 

 

I do actually like the new battle-forged system though. Seeing a small force of space marines backing up a battalion of imperial guard with inquisitor + followers is pretty cool. But I've always enjoyed the story-based battles than the competitive nature.

Edited September 14, 2017 by Aothaine

[Karhedron]

I like the new system for its flexibility. Previously there was often a lot of unfairness with army building with some codices having superb detachments while others had poor ones. With the new system, you can build pretty much any kind of army from a balanced force to specialist formations like Ravenwing and Wraith Hosts while being open to all.

 

Part of the reason that Guilliman is problematic is that he buffs ALL Imperial units. On the one hand, this is fluffy (he is the Lord Commander after all) but it also creates the kind of combos that GW tried to eliminate in 8th edition by introducing the keyword system in the first place.

 

I think the main problem arises when someone brings TAC list and their opponent brings a WAAC list. I think that this kind of thing is best addressed by discussion between players. If playing at a club or tournament, I would say there is a good case for introducing House Rules that limit abuse. Players could then agree before the game to either play House Rules or anything goes. Problems usually only occur if players want different types of game from each other.

[brother_b]

 

I think the main problem arises when someone brings TAC list and their opponent brings a WAAC list. I think that this kind of thing is best addressed by discussion between players. If playing at a club or tournament, I would say there is a good case for introducing House Rules that limit abuse. Players could then agree before the game to either play House Rules or anything goes. Problems usually only occur if players want different types of game from each other.

 

Groups, clubs, and even event organizers have a lot of say in what comes and what goes. I don't mind the idea of a super competitive list for super competitive environments. That's fine for tournaments.

 

For group and club play most of the people I know are building their lists in a much more low-key way. Of course there will always be the guy that brings Celestine for a 25 point game, but whatever. I know for a campaign I've been considering with a friend we're going to have specific rules regarding taking lords of war and named characters. They will not be available every game and there will be penalties for the death of those named characters. We've also considered points limits for taking certain named characters/lords of war.

 

We're getting tired of Magus showing up at every low level patrol encounter, or RG showing up every time the Imperium engages any enemy, anywhere.

 

We'll be playing PL to start, not sure if we'll port that over to points or not.

[Aothaine]

 

We'll be playing PL to start, not sure if we'll port that over to points or not.

 

 

Just keep in mind that PL is meant for just quick games and might not be very balanced. If you guys have specific units and understand how the matched play system work it is usually fairer to use the points system. PL is mainly meant for beginners or people that don't really have enough units/models etc.

 

@Gingerninja - Don't forget that DC can be used quite effectively if built around different goals. For instance giving them bolters and jumpacks and dropping three full squads of them with a captain and keep them out of melee as much as possible, though who in their right mind would want to assault a unit of DC that large?

 

Goal here being withering firepower. Drop them down 9.01-11.99~" away then double tap with 90 bolter shots re-rolling 1's to hit.

 

Queue up the rest of the army with a alpha strike theme focused on big gribblies and you have a decent list.

Edited September 14, 2017 by Aothaine

[Thoridon]

We use power level (friendly games) because we can suddenly decide to play a game in the afternoon and have armies selected within minutes, then get on with playing. With points in 7th it could take so long to get army lists together (even with battlescribe) that it needed more planning in advance, and that for some people can turn the game into more of a chore than fun.

 

Obviously PL can be exploited if one person gears every unit to the max and someone else runs mostly basic models but as long as everyone keeps things fair and fun it's a nice system to use. It does of course change some units' cost efficiency... they might be points efficient but cost more PL than you'd like and so on, but on the whole it's a good intruduction that can get some people playing more who feel the exact points counting detracts from the fun.

 

Clearly anything serious should be full on points, but for saving time in games between friends with similar attitudes (not looking to exploit everything the way a hardcore tournament player might) PL does what it needs to.

[Gingerninja]

So instead of starting a new thread i´m continuing here.

 

My army is starting to get on its feet. Here is a picture

 

Didn't figure out how to get the picture in here. - https://imgur.com/a/Y5M0e

 

So I actually got a commission for the Fire Raptor and Assassins since I have limited time doing hobbying. It got back in a somewhat darker red than I was expecting. Do someone have a painting tip on how I can get my Xiphon and SR some what close to the darker red on the Fire Raptor?

 

I also played a 1800p game with what you see on the picture excluding the SR and the DC dread.

 

Vanguard Detachment (Blood Angels keyword)

 

1 x Chaplain JP

1 x Sang Priest JP

 

6 x VV JP (Relic blade, 2 x TH, 3 x Power Axe)

2 x CV JP (Both with Stormbolter and SS)

2 x CV JP (Both with Stormbolter and SS)

8 x DC JP (2 x TH, 4 x Power Axe and CS, 2 x CS and Bolt pistols)

 

1 x Fire Raptor (2 x Quad HB)

1 x Xiphon

 

Vanguard Detachment (Imperial keyword)

 

1 x Librarian JP (130p is really expensive, nice to see a points reduction in Chapter approved, if the leaks are correct)

 

2 x Vindicare

1 x Celexus

1 x Eversor

 

 

I faced a shooty nids list, without genestealers. It was a really close game. Maelstorm mission ending up 16 - 14 nids.

Nids got first turn but i had my entire deployment zone blocked with the CV, two Vindicares and the Celexus. The fliers were out of range for the nids heavy shooting. I thought i would be though but actually worked well with so few deep strike units.

 

I made two big mistakes that prob. lost me the game. 

 

First one was leaving a big enough gap in my backfield (when moving my fliers min 20") for a Flyrant, Swarmlord and the droppod to just drop in and charge my Fire Raptor on nids turn 2. So the FR was short lived and i could have closed that space with my Librarian that i droped in first turn to cast shield of Sang on the Xiphon (less wounds and needed those str 9 Lascannons)

 

Second one was deepstriking in my DC and VV with Chaplain and Sang Priest to take care of the Flyrant, Swarmlord and droppod. Since I had a low model count i should have dropped the DC to take care of some of the chaff units the nids had on the table. I dropped the DC within Exocrine shooting range and they failed the charge so they did nothing.

It turned out that i didn´t need the DC, the VV first killed the Flyrant, then the Swarmlord and then the droppod, one each turn. The Chaplain and Sang priest staying behind to resurrect and give aura buffs. First turn they got unleash rage from the Librarian.

 

So lessons learned.

• Having specialized units is probably the way to go, DC against chaff, VV against high T targets 
• 3 invun on VV when fighting nidzillas is very nice. Will prob kit the squad with 3 x TH instead of 3 x Power Axes
• Even if the fliers didnt do much (nids rolled 6plus armour saves 6 times against Lascannon shots, and general bad rolling with them) i just love using them, they are so easy to maneuver and its very easy to, at least the first couple of turns, control the range against whatever you wanna shoot and what is dangerous. Nids really only shot with the heavy guns turn one and two since i was able to keep my distance. Also i´m getting a second Xiphon, they have been very good every game iv´e used them and I will get a Flying detachment.
• I will of course not use 4 assassins in a BA list, I will use 2-3 max. The Celexus can soak up some fire and are really good against psyker heavy lists and the Vindicares a really good, maybe not against a nids list but i wanted to try out all my new assassins.
• I will need one more CV squad with SS and Storm bolter to increase the area i can block for deep strike. And they are kinda good jumping around catching objectives in my own backfield. They cant take many shoots or hits in CC but the range of Dakka is usually not more then 24".
• I need one more chaff clearing DC unit, they will soak up some fire power and also kill loads of weak stuff.
• I have a SR and a DC dread that I haven't used yet, I rather use the FR than the SR, mostly because of me being able to control the range to the enemy shooting, and the DC dread is just expensive. If i were to use them it would be a suicide squad going in turn one and dropping of the dread.

 

I think when my list is ready and all models painted it will be very hard to beat and i also have some room for swapping units in and out depending on opponent. But the theme will remain the same, Elite, Mobile and Flying.

 

What do you guys think? Is the list and theme fluffy? Do i lack any components? How till it stand in a more competitive setting?

 

Please comment

 

Regards GingerNinja

[Thoridon]

I don't have any fliers so I can't really comment on those or the overall list but I would say you're right that VV make ideal "monster hunters". With TH/SS access on a jump pack squad they can move in quick to dish out the damage and have that 3++ if the target does hit back, whether by having a boatload of wounds you can't get down in one round or an always-hit-first ability. While DC have a higher damage output on the charge with hammers they tend to be a bit more of a glass cannon.

 

Part of it does depend on target choice and positioning though. If you charge a monster and kill it, if the opponent has other units nearby they can kill a bunch of VV with SS just as easily as a bunch of DC if they use massed small arms fire (in fact easier, as DC still have that 6+++). The SS would kick in if they're targeted by anything with -1 AP though, so it just depends what you're up against.

 

Looking at your list it might be worth specialising the squads. As you say, a couple more hammers in the VV squad and you could just send them against a target without feeling the need to also send the DC against the same thing. DC then can be very efficient at destroying basic units with their extra charge attack, with both power weapon + chainsword or bolter + chainsword being strong.

 

Axes for me are just stuck in a tough place, the same with swords. Both fall some way behind both Fists and Hammers when it comes to T6+ multi-wound monsters, and while in theory a bunch of axes should do something, in practice they usually just bounce off and have little more effect than the basic chainsword. Against infantry I think you only really want axes/swords if you're expecting to fight the likes of Warriors with their 4+ or MEQ. Against the most basic infantry with 5+ (or even 6+) then saving the points to run extra bolter/chainsword bodies is the most effective.

 

That said, I've run units of DC with both massed hammers and axe+chainsword. The former because I wanted a maximum output melee unit despite knowing they'd be vulnerable after nuking their target and the latter because dual melee weapons just look good (and fitting) on DC. I would say that most times I've used mixed-weapon DC units in the past I've always felt they lacked something when going against big targets, and wished they'd been more focused.

 

As for the DC Dread, I know a lot of people don't like it but it's been one of my favourite units in 8th with strong melee output and no degradation. That said, I don't face big shooty lists - I can understand people not wanting to sink points into melee Dreads if they usually get shot off the table before doing anything. I tend to play against melee Nids so the DC Dread has been great for me being able to do his thing. I'm not sure I'd take one against a shooty army though.