Purifiers - Give Them a Shot

[Danarc]

To be honest I feel a kind of a lazines from GW as far as old codex armies goes[aka non totaly redone stuff]. This is neither the time nor the place to talk about DG or primaris, but at worse they are fresh stuff. With stuff like chaos or GK it feels to me as if GW reprinted the index and slaped on some general rules. If it wasn't for the GMDK, GK wouldn't feel much different then the codex list. I get the new to bring out stuff fast[but weren't indexs done to cover that?], but there should really be more thought put in to stuff. unless of course this is some sort of ploy to make people buy index first, then codex and then every year update those with a book, so most people would never finish their armies and always be buying more stuff.

Actually I believe that GW will publish all codexes without new entry and then new new codexes with new units. 

 

Plus every army now needs a Primarch type mini.

 

Yeah we can use imperial ones. But we shouldn't have to.

 

We (and Eldar, Tau, Orks etc) need our own faction Bobby G or Morty.

I strongly agree. If someone has primarchs everyone should have a counter model for them. But, actually, I really would have preferred no primarchs in 40k, leaving them in HH.

[Adeptus]

It feels kinda lazy IMO to just give every faction a Primarch or Pseudo primarch. Like there's some kind of template for every army that needs to be filled.

[Gentlemanloser]

But there is.

 

Just look back to 7th. Don't have a flyer? At a disadvantage.

 

Don't have any Interceptor to counter the new fliers? Another disadvantage.

 

Even if you don't like them, and choose not to use them, all armies should have the same ability to take a Super Heavy, sorry Lord of War, er Primarch scale super unit.

 

Or we're left with the haves, and have-nots distiction.

[Adeptus]

That's a very pigeon-holed way of looking at it though.

 

Don't have a flier? Well, here's a non-flying counter that is unique to your army and fits your theme.

 

Not all armies need the same access to equivalent units that are effectively the SAME unit just reskinned for a different faction. We don't all need a Primarch or Superheavy or whatever.

 

What every army needs is a way to deal with X, Y or Z without having to take X, Y or Z themselves.

 

At the risk of getting very abstract, the best way to deal with threat X might be to include unit type A.

 

But that doesn't mean that every army should have a unit that is their version of A. What it means it that every army should have a unit that is capable of doing the same job as A, preferably while remaining true to the factions 'feel' and theme.

[Waking Dreamer]

But there is.

 

Just look back to 7th. Don't have a flyer? At a disadvantage.

 

Don't have any Interceptor to counter the new fliers? Another disadvantage.

 

Even if you don't like them, and choose not to use them, all armies should have the same ability to take a Super Heavy, sorry Lord of War, er Primarch scale super unit.

 

Or we're left with the haves, and have-nots distiction.

 

If we follow that logic though, every other SM army "should" have had their own Monstrous Creature unit 3 editions after GKs (and fortunately, STILL only GKs) got theirs right? 

 

Pretty soon after GKs received their unique NDK unit, do you think space wolves NEEDED to  get a giant armoured Wolf the size of a Greater Daemon, White Scars to get a giant speeding Monster-Bike, Salamanders to get a fire-breathing dragon-mech just for the sake of "fairness"....?

 

GKs have never been known to have a proper Primarch, it's part of their uniqueness as a Chapter. Whatever Primarchs that are on the table now are BOSS, well yeah...they are Primarchs - they shouldn't be anything less than that. Doesn't really mean GKs should get a new model on a 60-100mm base that is Primarch-level imo. I'd definitely like to see eventual improvements with our current models like Purifiers and Terminators to smooth out the internal balance of our Codex...introducing a 400-point model with almost auto-include rules/buffs in our already point-starved army doesnt really fix that.

[Gentlemanloser]

Not all fliers are the same. There are def army themed fliers.

 

Not all transports are the same. Etc. Heck i'd like psyhic pilot back.

 

Not sure that my post above suggested that all armies need non flavourful carbon copies.

 

I strongly agree that theme and feel should be paramount.

 

Bobby G isn't the same as Mortarion or Magnus, for example. All three have different themes and abilities that fit thier native armies. But all three give those respective armies thier own super unit.

 

It used to be Draigo for us...

 

And this is what needs to be expanded on.

 

Edit.

 

WD, yes. (Look at imperial lists that dominated. They used TWC, not as Space Wolves, but becuase it was a unique unit that no other imperial army had a version off that was so good. You then added a dangel to the mix. Or a Marine Biker. But folk dipped into the wolves just for the TWC. Like now with dipping into Marines for Bobby G. Or us for NDK.)

 

We need fast slot units. Bikes, jetbike, teleporters that work like jump packs, flying NDK. whatever you want to design to fit the theme.

 

But it's a basic tool we miss.

 

Much like storm shields and meltas.

 

And basically, Bobby G is the Marine MC unit.

Edited September 27, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Gentlemanloser]

Also, 'don't have any jump infantry?' Or rather non flier slot units with the fly keyword.

 

What's the 'counter' for assaulting enemy fliers?

 

There is none.

 

Every army should at least have access to this basic tool.

 

We don't.

 

(And apart from giving Interceptors the fly keyword, or letting the PT do the same for NDK - which isn't a great option and just makes our best unit even more clutch - the way I'd do it to fit our theme? Psychic Power. Much like i'd use squad based psychic powers to differentiate or similair units and give them thier defined roles...)

 

Moving nicely back to Purifiers (and Purgators!).

 

;)

Edited September 27, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[skarn]

Gk dont need a primarch stand in. Our whole MO is that we kill primarchs. :)

[Danarc]

The emperor is our Primarch. Give him us!

 

Ok, I stop joking, but actually the game is not rock scissors paper. Not every army should have the same units but GW should have created the game balanced in order to give to every army something that could counter every entry of the others. After that the payer should choose what to play. 
But unfortunately GW didn't do it. And we miss melta, flyer jump pack, storm shield, and we lost all our xyphon somewhere. So we still miss movement capacity, body count, and antitank shots. 

[the jeske]

well, that depends on what you mean by everything. We had armies go through editions without stuff that made the editions armies work, and it was not a good expiriance for those armies. Now I agree with you that not every army requires to have hmm lets say TWC [aka medium fast moving melee models]. But something like psychic powers, should be there for everyone [and in case of tau/ad mecha you give them tech/program stuff that has simiular effects]. For GK the focus could be teleportation, different versions of it, more of the "once per game teleport in an X way". As far as strikes/interceptors/puris/and what ever the name GK havocks have, I have two things that make me wonder. A does it have to be 4 of them when there is no entice to take them, and the difference between each is minimal. B if there are suppose to be more of them then 1-2, then there should stuff that makes people want to run them. It can be anything starting with simple stats buffs[puris with 1+W or 1+A and same points could be at least considered as an option], to making those units actually "special".Double the range of weapons on a Purgation squad. Let interceptors do the old jsj. Have purfires buff other models while being a short range super nova[you know, the way wulfen are].

 

Otherwise it is a waste of 3-4 pages in a codex to have all of them, and could be wasting slots for different kind of units .

[Gentlemanloser]

I was explaining to our nid player that we only have a single fast choice.

 

And is exactly the same unit as or strikes. But with a 12" move.

 

He laughed.

[the jeske]

Well I hope it was a friendly laugh, because in the case of tyranids the whole codex consisted of one model for a very long time.

[Gentlemanloser]

It was. ;)

 

Especially after our first match today, where i tabled him without losing a single model.

 

Our second was a lot closer and would have ended in a draw if he'd been 3mm closer to my objective.

[Muaddib]

I was explaining to our nid player that we only have a single fast choice.

 

And is exactly the same unit as or strikes. But with a 12" move.

 

He laughed.

With a 12" move ignoring others units and buildings and the possibility to start on the board and pseudo-DS anyway. Not quite the same after all ;)

But they're lonely in their fast attack slot and it's a shame, I totally agree about that!!

[skarn]

Our book is good, especially against those armies without books yet. I had a 100 power game vs nids where i tabled them and lost a 5 man strike squad, a brochamp (who got charged by a broodlord, died, then killed it with his special rule).

[Holier Than Thou]

Our book is good, especially against those armies without books yet. I had a 100 power game vs nids where i tabled them and lost a 5 man strike squad, a brochamp (who got charged by a broodlord, died, then killed it with his special rule).

 

That's not really high praise for our book though, that it's better than not having one. If we are only good against armies that haven't got a book yet, what happens when they do all have books? It's annoying because it wouldn't take much to bring us up to the same level as the other Codex armies, just a few tweaks.

[Gentlemanloser]

That's the place some of our guys are at currently.

 

The GK, Marines and Chaos are doing well.

 

Nids and Eldar are struggling. There's a growing sentiment that they might just as well wait the month or and play again once thier codexes drop.

 

Really though, while they lament the choice of warlord traits, i wonder how much of an impact new relics and strategums while have for them.

[Helycon]

The codices just flush out an army and bring it to the next tier. So far, all armies seem to be close with the index, and just that tad stronger with the codex due to great interactions and things people don't expect with stratagems. Once everyone has their codex, I expect most armies to be on the same level, with some being slightly stronger and some being slightly weaker. Here's top hoping that they can use chapter approved to balance out those outliers and make the armies balanced, with options. Utopian I guess, but a guy can dream!

[the jeske]

all armies seem to be close with the index

 

 

which armies? because IG, DG or marines are drasticly different from what they looked like under index rule[and am ignoring the Stormraven spam lists here]. Yes csm and GK look almost like carbon copies with stuff all armies get in their books [to a point where csm legion traits are identical to sm chapter tactics].

[skarn]

Is anyone actually struggling with the new gk book though? This is the best we have been since 5th edition.

I wish certain units were better, or we had more options, but overall our codex is really good. Its at least as good as any of the ones out so far.

[Adeptus]

I've not yet had a match where I felt our codex was underpowered or lacked options. Edited September 29, 2017 by Adeptus

[Gentlemanloser]

The units i use are great.

 

I just wish there was more variety.

 

Truth be told I'm getting a little bored with GMNDK, Doomglaives, Strikes, Paladin and Apothecaries.

[Seizeman]

And even then paladins are just worse than apothecaries and need a slight cost reduction (either them or their hammers and special weapons). The biggest problems we have now are the cost of special weapons and characters.

 

Our characters are ridiculously overcosted, specially for how bland they are, pretty much forcing us to take Draigo and GMNDKs They need to make everyone else cheaper so at least you have the choice between few powerful and expensive HQ or several less powerful and cheaper ones, or only  cheap ones so you can take more troops for double battalion or something like that.

 

The biggest problem for me is the cost of special weapons. Their high cost and low power makes them unplayable, which really limits our unit choices. If they were playable, you could have  squads with a specialised role, which would add some new tactical choices. If they'd let interceptors have two of them per 5 models (which is the norm in marine armies thanks to combi-weapons) and reduce their point cost by 1 or 2, they would be playable, probably. Also, if paladins could take affordable special weapons, that would make them an alternative to the apothecary, as the apothecary has no significant firepower. Of course, better special weapons could make purgation squads playable, and making you think about which weapon to give them. Psycannons for "long" range anti-tank? Psilencers for infantry? Four incinerators on a transport?

 

Fixing  the issue with special weapons would be a pretty big deal in giving us choice and give our units a bit more color.

 

Also, they should split the cost of the units and the nemesis weapons. One problem with power armored troops is they loose their melee weapon when you give them a special weapon. That makes psilencer on power armor unusable even if they costed nothing, because they are still worse than a model with storm bolter + melee weapon and should actually be cheaper. If the psilencer costed a little less than bolter + falchion, that would make purgation squads with them an interesting option.

 

That would also make picking  nemesis weapons a real choice, by giving them different costs. Just make it so the model with bolter + falchion costs the same as it does now, but make the other nemesis weapons one point cheaper, so we have to think about it. This would also solve the problem of people being screwed because they haven't modeled their units with falchions. They should make hammers on power armor cheaper too, so picking a hammer for your justicar is not a huge waste.

 

They can solve all of this easily in the chapter approved supplement, so I hope they do their job and fix this issue, specially after they ignored it in the codex.

Edited September 29, 2017 by Seizeman

[Helycon]

 

all armies seem to be close with the index

 

 

which armies? because IG, DG or marines are drasticly different from what they looked like under index rule[and am ignoring the Stormraven spam lists here]. Yes csm and GK look almost like carbon copies with stuff all armies get in their books [to a point where csm legion traits are identical to sm chapter tactics].

How different are marines from the index? I'm not convinced differences in units are massive. Yes, they added a bunch of units, but statswise and rulewise they're roughly the same, except for battleforged benefits. The weapons the new Primaris bring are really just slightly different from what was in the Imperial arsenal.

 

Death Guard I'll give you, but they were never an army to start with, so they got changed massively, in great part to a massive amount of new units.

[Seizeman]

Space marines got a price reduction on many units that were overcosted, making them more playable, which gives them more competitive options for army composition. That, combined with the battleforge benefits is enough for an army that already had a massive amount of options and I'm sure it was the most thoroughly tested army to begin with. If two or three units are unplayable for space marines, it's not a big deal. If two or three units are unplayable for us, it cuts our options in half.

 

In our case, they did not fix the point cost for our unplayable units, so we are still lacking in competitive choices. They even mock us by increasing the point cost of terminators and stormraven's plasma. Furthermore, our battleforged rules, while useful, add a lot less than they do for other armies. Instead of several chapter tactics for different styles of play, we only have one. Our relics are fewer than SM ones and worse and less interesting than those of any other army, in big part because we don't have good characters that can use them. Also we have less stratagems and the only interesting ones are overcosted (psybolt ammo and psychic overload should cost 1 CP). They could have compensated by making our new psychic powers more interesting, but instead we got crap like Vortex and Astral aim.

 

So yes, we have gained a lot less from our index than other armies have, being one of those who needed it the most.