Land Speeders in Eighth, squadron or not?

[ShinyRhino]

I'm just about done painting a trio of Land Speeders to make four in my collection. I'm putting them in an army list, but can't decide whether to use them all solo (plenty of room in the Outrider detachment), or squadron them up in pairs or a trio plus a solo.

 

There doesn't seem to be such a big benefit from squadrons in Eighth as there was in the past. Does anyone still squadron their units?

[Claws and Effect]

If there's no benefit I wouldn't.

 

Not unless I'm playing a 4000 point game where FOC slots are more of a concern than points.

[ShinyRhino]

The only benefit I can think of is when you have heavy flamers on them and are trying to block movement or claim an objective. An opposing unit would have to charge two Speeders, both armed with heavy flamers that auto hit on Overwatch. Two single Speeders would be easier to charge one at a time.

[Lemondish]

It also impacts the number of units you deploy. A squadron would help you in trying to ensure first turn.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

There is also the extra 4" of movement when you have a unit of 3 to consider as well. If you're going to use them to get into your opponents deployment zone and take objectives/apply pressure that extra movement isn't insignificant (also in most deployment scenarios you start 24" apart, 16" movement makes you 8" away, if you ARE running heavy flamers theres a good chance you will be out of range).

 

In fact id go so far as to say if you run the heavy flamer load-out, and you're going to run 3, run them in a unit of 3. If you're going to run them dakka, its worth considering splitting them up (vs not) for the reasons above.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

The better question is... Land Speeders or not?

 

Im thinking not.  They suffer horribly from -1 to hit on heavy weapons since their entire appeal is mobility.  For the price of 3 speeders with typhoon missile launches you could have a land raider that hits on 3s and is way more durable.  But hey... the speeders go fast! ZOOOOOOOOOOOM*

Edited September 14, 2017 by SanguinaryGuardsman

[ShinyRhino]

The better question is... Land Speeders or not?

 

Im thinking not.  They suffer horribly from -1 to hit on heavy weapons since their entire appeal is mobility.  For the price of 3 speeders with typhoon missile launches you could have a land raider that hits on 3s and is way more durable.  But hey... the speeders go fast! ZOOOOOOOOOOOM*

You'd probably not move Typhoons around much, as they have a nice large threat range with the missiles. In fact, if you took three Typhoons, you'd probably spread them across the deployment area for maximum coverage or park them together for concentrated damage.

 

I'm not going to get into the whole "apples to oranges" debate of comparing Fast Attack Speeders to Heavy Support Land Raiders.

[ShinyRhino]

It also impacts the number of units you deploy. A squadron would help you in trying to ensure first turn.

My local scene has already adopted the +1 to the roll off instead of the "finish first go first" rule. Drops aren't as critical for us.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

The better question is... Land Speeders or not?

 

Im thinking not.  They suffer horribly from -1 to hit on heavy weapons since their entire appeal is mobility.  For the price of 3 speeders with typhoon missile launches you could have a land raider that hits on 3s and is way more durable.  But hey... the speeders go fast! ZOOOOOOOOOOOM*

 

I agree with you. I feel both the Land Speeder (and LSS) are horribly overpriced for what you get, and the -1 to hit makes them feel unplayable. Ultimately it feels like you're paying a tax on a unit for speed, but then you don't want to move and use the speed.

 

Also the price drop both units got in the new Marine codex indicates (at least to me anyway) that GW is aware the unit is not popular/over costed. I just don't think at their current cost they are practical. Maybe the double heavy flamer load-out is worth considering, but even then, seems inefficient and without a real purpose.

 

312 Points gets you 6D6 Str 5 AP -1 hits carried on 18 wounds of a T5 chassis with a 3+ that moves at 20" a turn. It doesn't sound bad on paper, but in practice...I'm not so sure.

[Mileposter]

I have had great success running a pair of Land Speeders with a Heavy Bolter and Autocannon loadout on each. Usually utilize them as mobile turrets - the extra mobility on three is still great (I have three built and used to run them that way) for getting to the high ground so they can sit there. Worth noting that in the list I have them, they are dedicated anti-troops and are run alongside Rifleman Dreadnoughts and Stormtalons, so they are often only ever facnig small arms fire.

 

That being said, even though I've had a lot of fun and great success with them, it's probably true that they're the first thing I'll drop if I'm trying to squeeze in a different unit into that particular list. >.>;

[Race Bannon]

Look man, I built FOUR of these things in 7th.  I hated building them so much that I am *going* to use them this edition.  Not for every game, but they will get used, rules be damned.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Look man, I built FOUR of these things in 7th.  I hated building them so much that I am *going* to use them this edition.  Not for every game, but they will get used, rules be damned.

 

Sub assemblies lessen the hardship.  Unless you had trouble getting them to fit properly.  :(

 

How did you model them?

[Race Bannon]

Bump that, the model pieces suck teh bawlz.

 

3x HBx2 and one with HB/AC. They were made for 7th ... And they are staying that way. Bullet farmer here ;)

[smbarne]

Look man, I built FOUR of these things in 7th.  I hated building them so much that I am *going* to use them this edition.  Not for every game, but they will get used, rules be damned.

I've run the two drop pods I finished up just in time for 8th because of this. They look awesome, darn it.

 

I'd say the extra 4" of movement and less drops is handy, but you can get another comand point by splitting them and adding an HQ.

 

Keeping them cheaper with lots of shots could be the way to go. I wish double multimelta was viable, but that is a lot of fragile points in a 50/50 shot chance...

 

I also with land speeders got chapter tactics like bikes and dreads...

[Gulltramarine]

I like the 6 x HF loadout personally. The units are probably too expensive points wise (a twin AC Razorback is 100pts) but the unit looks like a lot of fun. I have 2 landspeeders already, so might invest in a third

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Bump that, the model pieces suck teh bawlz.

 

3x HBx2 and one with HB/AC. They were made for 7th ... And they are staying that way. Bullet farmer here

Bullet farmed.. haha.  I've got "volume of fire" OCD.  If I dont have the most dice in my hand possible for a given unit loadout I start having visions of my parents arguing from my childhood. 

[Wolf_Lord_Hardrada]

I like the idea of LS, but their -1 with the heavies, whilst it does make sense in a high velocity way, does greatly reduce their appeal. Though following Races thoughts, I spent so damn long trawling ebay for cheap fixer-uppers that I'm going to run them...just as soon as I find some weapons for them :-/

[ShinyRhino]

I like the 6 x HF loadout personally. The units are probably too expensive points wise (a twin AC Razorback is 100pts) but the unit looks like a lot of fun. I have 2 landspeeders already, so might invest in a third

6x Heavy Flamer build is dead and buried, FYI. Kit options only now, so no double multimelta, etc.

 

I am running my quartet of Speeders this weekend with just Multimeltas. We'll see how it goes.

[Brother_Gneecapper]

 

I like the 6 x HF loadout personally. The units are probably too expensive points wise (a twin AC Razorback is 100pts) but the unit looks like a lot of fun. I have 2 landspeeders already, so might invest in a third

6x Heavy Flamer build is dead and buried, FYI. Kit options only now, so no double multimelta, etc.

 

I am running my quartet of Speeders this weekend with just Multimeltas. We'll see how it goes.

 

 

The Double Heavy build isn't dead, GW has said in a FAQ that any Non-Codex variants of a vehicle may be used from the index so long as you pay the points cost for its appropriate weapons from the Codex armory point cost. They do not wish to invalidate any models people own, they also come with the double heavy flamers in the box so to not allow that would be foolish IMO.

Edited September 18, 2017 by Brother_Gneecapper

[ShinyRhino]

 

 

I like the 6 x HF loadout personally. The units are probably too expensive points wise (a twin AC Razorback is 100pts) but the unit looks like a lot of fun. I have 2 landspeeders already, so might invest in a third

 

6x Heavy Flamer build is dead and buried, FYI. Kit options only now, so no double multimelta, etc.

I am running my quartet of Speeders this weekend with just Multimeltas. We'll see how it goes.

 

The Double Heavy build isn't dead, GW has said in a FAQ that any Non-Codex variants of a vehicle may be used from the index so long as you pay the points cost for its appropriate weapons from the Codex armory point cost. They do not wish to invalidate any models people own, they also come with the double heavy flamers in the box so to not allow that would be foolish IMO.

Which FAQ is this in?

 

The Land Speeder kit comes with only one Heavy Flamer, for the nose mount. The seat gunner comes with a multimelta and a heavy bolter.

[Zeruvar]

I feel you on "I finished the models, and I'll play them. Rules be damned!"

 

When i started playing in 5th ed with my Templars the only way I could keep up with the local meta was to go 5x man msu Terminators with 2x typhoons and cheap land speeder typhoons. (Old 4th ed codex). I ended up with 9 speeders and 15 tactical tdas. Spent a lot of time converting and magnetizing the missiles.

 

Ever since we got rolled into the SM codex, I have yet to conciously field my land speeders and tactical marines, given the other choices.

Edited September 18, 2017 by Zeruvar

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

 

 

 

I like the 6 x HF loadout personally. The units are probably too expensive points wise (a twin AC Razorback is 100pts) but the unit looks like a lot of fun. I have 2 landspeeders already, so might invest in a third

6x Heavy Flamer build is dead and buried, FYI. Kit options only now, so no double multimelta, etc.

I am running my quartet of Speeders this weekend with just Multimeltas. We'll see how it goes.

 

The Double Heavy build isn't dead, GW has said in a FAQ that any Non-Codex variants of a vehicle may be used from the index so long as you pay the points cost for its appropriate weapons from the Codex armory point cost. They do not wish to invalidate any models people own, they also come with the double heavy flamers in the box so to not allow that would be foolish IMO.

Which FAQ is this in?

 

The Land Speeder kit comes with only one Heavy Flamer, for the nose mount. The seat gunner comes with a multimelta and a heavy bolter.

 

 

When I went looking for this information in an FAQ, I could not find it (not to say it isn't out there). However, I did fine this information from the Warhammer Community site (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/05/codexes-your-questions-answered-july-5gw-homepage-post-2/)

 

 

There are a few options that are missing in the codex that appear in the index: why is that? Does that mean I can’t use these models in my army anymore?

While the indexes are designed to cover a long history of miniatures, the codexes are designed to give you rules for the current Warhammer 40,000 range. There are a few options in the indexes for some Characters and vehicles that are no longer represented in the Citadel range – certain Dreadnought weapons that don’t come in the box, or some characters on bikes, for example.

 

Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models. In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons (currently, also in the index).

 

They still gain all the army wide-bonuses for things like Chapter Tactics and can use Space Marines Stratagems and the like, so such venerable heroes still fit right in with the rest of your army.

 

 

Edited September 19, 2017 by ltvyper

[Claws and Effect]

Yep. If it was legal before, it still is.

 

Otherwise you'd have a lot of angry players when they realize that they can no longer use a bunch of models they spent a lot of time on. Not good for business. 

 

If it was really "you can only use what's in the box" you'd be limited to no more than 4 pairs of lightning claws in a Vanguard unit because that's all a box comes with.

[ShinyRhino]

I ran my four Speeders this past weekend for a three game tourney.

Two with multimelta and heavy flamer, one with multimelta and assault cannon, and one with multimelta and Typhoon Launcher.

I ran them all solo, no squadrons.

 

They are supremely difficult to use as an offensive tool due to the 4+ to hit with Heavies after moving. You really have to move them around in packs to ensure something hits.

 

I was concerned that having weapons that target different unit types (tanks or infantry, for example) would lead to wasted shots, but the 16" move helps put the Speeders into places where you can split your fire to pretty good effect.

 

Multimeltas are no joke when you get them on target and at half range. I put some serious hurt on daemons with them, and made sure things like Intercessors died instead of hanging around with one wound.

 

The utility of a squadron seems to be nil. There wasn't a single situation in which I wished I had more than one model in the squadron. I had them in an Outrider alongside a jump Chaplain and two squads of ASM, with a Battalion to boot. Plenty of room for the number I was using without an FOC crunch.

[Race Bannon]

Soooo ... good?