Saving mortal wounds?

[The Gozfather]

I've always been under the impression that mortal wounds were just that, and cannot be saved. The Core Rules pamphlet states "do not make a wound roll or saving throw (including invulnerable saves) against a mortal wound".

 

I've not been taking any Black Rage or Tenacious Survivor saves against mortal wounds either.

 

On the Warhammer Community page yesterday for the 'Forge World Focus: Graia', an example is given regarding the Fulgurite Electro-Priests, and that with all their armour saves, invul saves and final 'Refusal to Yield' save (much the same as Black Rage), "you'll be saving 83% of wounds from normal sources and 50% of mortal wounds".

 

So we CAN take these 'extra' saves against mortal wounds?!

 

Makes our Black Rage marginally better, and means armies like Death Guard are much more resilient against Smite etc.....

 

Or have I completely missed something and there is still nothing to avoid taking mortal wounds?

[Arkangilos]

FNP has always saved against mortal wounds now. It's one of the benefits of it over the old system.

[The Gozfather]

FNP has always saved against mortal wounds now. It's one of the benefits of it over the old system.

 

So many deaths for no reason!  

 

Thanks for confirming for me anyway!

[Panzer]

FnP-like effects are no saves even tho they "save" your models wounds. Only armor and invulnerable saves are actual saves in rule-terms.

Those effects are also rolled against damage and not against wounds like actual saves.

 

Also in case you wondered, you can stack multiple FnP-like effects. So if you a model has two 6+ effects from two different sources you can roll 2d6 for each damage and see if you can prevent it if one of those is a 6+.

[Bremon]

Exactly as mentioned; FNP/Disgustingly Resilient etc. aren't saves. One major difference is armor save is applied before damage, FNP is resolved after damage.

[tychobi]

It is not "Feel No Pain". It is an "ignore wounds" roll.  It is not a save or a mitigation of a hit or wound.  It happens after wounds have been tallied but before they are recorded for the model.  Subtle but important distinctions that are a little counter intuitive for us old hat gamers.  

[Panzer]

It is not "Feel No Pain". It is an "ignore wounds" roll.  It is not a save or a mitigation of a hit or wound.  It happens after wounds have been tallied but before they are recorded for the model.  Subtle but important distinctions that are a little counter intuitive for us old hat gamers.  

That's what FnP is tho. It was never a save and isn't this edition either.

 

Also it's not a "ignore wounds" roll, it's a "ignore damage roll". ;)

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

Still just a 6++ but yah. The interwebs are super down on the Iron Hands chapter tactic (everyone gets "fnp") but I think it's pretty good, especially with all of the smite and mortal wound spam now.

[Aothaine]

Still just a 6++ but yah. The interwebs are super down on the Iron Hands chapter tactic (everyone gets "fnp") but I think it's pretty good, especially with all of the smite and mortal wound spam now.

 

Have to keep in mind that a lot of people will only post when they think something is unfair or weak. Chapter wide 6+ FNP is damned good as you get a second chance to prevent wounds. People knock the Death Company 6+ FNP save as well which is a shame.

[TheHarrower]

 

Still just a 6++ but yah. The interwebs are super down on the Iron Hands chapter tactic (everyone gets "fnp") but I think it's pretty good, especially with all of the smite and mortal wound spam now.

 

Have to keep in mind that a lot of people will only post when they think something is unfair or weak. Chapter wide 6+ FNP is damned good as you get a second chance to prevent wounds. People knock the Death Company 6+ FNP save as well which is a shame.

 

 

That's because 6+ is a joke. I've probably played about 40 games now. I can count the number of times it saved a model on 1 hand. Multiple damage makes it almost impossible to pass. One 6+? Sure. 2 or 3 6+ because of multiple damage? Not a chance.

[Aothaine]

That's because 6+ is a joke. I've probably played about 40 games now. I can count the number of times it saved a model on 1 hand. Multiple damage makes it almost impossible to pass. One 6+? Sure. 2 or 3 6+ because of multiple damage? Not a chance.

 

 

If people are firing multi-damage weapons at your DC then you've already won the game. IMHO DC should be relegated to a counter-charging anti-infantry role. We have better weapons to fight big nasties with in our Devs / Tanks / Flyers. 

 

But I still love that DC have FNP. It is really good.

Edited September 14, 2017 by Aothaine

[Spagunk]

 

That's because 6+ is a joke. I've probably played about 40 games now. I can count the number of times it saved a model on 1 hand. Multiple damage makes it almost impossible to pass. One 6+? Sure. 2 or 3 6+ because of multiple damage? Not a chance.

 

 

If people are firing multi-damage weapons at your DC then you've already won the game. IMHO DC should be relegated to a counter-charging anti-infantry role. We have better weapons to fight big nasties with in our Devs / Tanks / Flyers. 

 

But I still love that DC have FNP. It is really good.

 

 

In my experience most of the armies I have faced also had enough firepower to shoot up my tanks/flyers in addition to my DC.

 

Last game I had saw 5 min/maxed dev squads as well as large tac squads w/ Chapter Master, lieutenants and chapter/company ancients. They also had two vindicare assassins who took out all my HQ's from across the table. It was rough.

Edited September 14, 2017 by Spagunk

[Ciler]

 

FNP has always saved against mortal wounds now. It's one of the benefits of it over the old system.

 

So many deaths for no reason!  

 

Thanks for confirming for me anyway!

 

 

For reference if anyone questions you taking those "saves" in future games, this is specifically clarified in the rulebook FaQ :

 

Q: Can abilities such as Disgustingly Resilient be used to ignore

wounds if they were inflicted by mortal wounds?

A: Yes.

Q: If a model has two rules that allow it to ignore wounds, such

as the Disgustingly Resilient ability and the Tenacious Survivor

Warlord Trait, can I use them both?

A: Unless stated otherwise, yes.

[Aothaine]

 

 

 

In my experience most of the armies I have faced also had enough firepower to shoot up my tanks/flyers in addition to my DC.

 

Last game I had saw 5 min/maxed dev squads as well as large tac squads w/ Chapter Master, lieutenants and chapter/company ancients. They also had two vindicare assassins who took out all my HQ's from across the table. It was rough.

 

 

That is horrible... I'm imagining 25 lascannon shots. That is just nasty. Feel bad for you man.. but Hell.. at least it was not guliman+5 flyers bad anymore.

Edited September 14, 2017 by Aothaine

[Panzer]

6+ saves or similar just aren't reliable. If I had the choice between a 6+ FnP or Invul or having the same unit without but a few points cheaper, I'd much rather take it without. Hence why I'll never pay points for the Stim Injector with my T'au.

[Ciler]

 

 

 

 

In my experience most of the armies I have faced also had enough firepower to shoot up my tanks/flyers in addition to my DC.

 

Last game I had saw 5 min/maxed dev squads as well as large tac squads w/ Chapter Master, lieutenants and chapter/company ancients. They also had two vindicare assassins who took out all my HQ's from across the table. It was rough.

 

 

That is horrible... I'm imagining 25 lascannon shots. That is just nasty. Feel bad for you man.. but Hell.. at least it guliman+5 flyers bad anymore.

 

5 minmax dev squads with lascanons are also 800 pts without any upgrades other than the weapons, not accounting squad leader upgrades, HQs and their wargear, that's nasty but tthat's also a hefty price tag.  You want nasty, check this out : for 900 pts instead of 5 dev squads, you can get 5 full lascan predators for essencially the same 20 lascan shots but... Instead of a M6 T4 Sv3+ unit with 5 wounds (inc. 1 ablative), you get a M10 T7 Sv3+ unit with 11 wounds (inc. 5 ablative).

[Aothaine]

6+ saves or similar just aren't reliable. If I had the choice between a 6+ FnP or Invul or having the same unit without but a few points cheaper, I'd much rather take it without. Hence why I'll never pay points for the Stim Injector with my T'au.

 

It is not reliable I agree. But I've seen those 6's rolled and allow the unit to follow up with devastating attacks on the next round. I think dismissing the 6+ save is not the wisest idea. 

 

 

5 minmax dev squads with lascanons are also 800 pts without any upgrades other than the weapons, not accounting squad leader upgrades, HQs and their wargear, that's nasty but tthat's also a hefty price tag.  You want nasty, check this out : for 900 pts instead of 5 dev squads, you can get 5 full lascan predators for essencially the same 20 lascan shots but... Instead of a M6 T4 Sv3+ unit with 5 wounds (inc. 1 ablative), you get a M10 T7 Sv3+ unit with 11 wounds (inc. 5 ablative).

 

 

 

I agree that preds equally as strong. But the devs can get into cover for a 2+ save and don't have to worry about being shot at with multiple-wound weapons. Both have their ups and downs.

[Panzer]

We all have seen people rolling a ton of 6s and we also all have seen people rolling an impossible amount of 1s in crucial situations. It's a dice game after all. My point still stands tho, it's not worth paying any amount of points for it in my eyes (same with the T'au Firewarrior Guardian Drone which gives the unit a 6++).

[Brother apocalyptic]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In my experience most of the armies I have faced also had enough firepower to shoot up my tanks/flyers in addition to my DC.

 

Last game I had saw 5 min/maxed dev squads as well as large tac squads w/ Chapter Master, lieutenants and chapter/company ancients. They also had two vindicare assassins who took out all my HQ's from across the table. It was rough.

 

That is horrible... I'm imagining 25 lascannon shots. That is just nasty. Feel bad for you man.. but Hell.. at least it guliman+5 flyers bad anymore.

5 minmax dev squads with lascanons are also 800 pts without any upgrades other than the weapons, not accounting squad leader upgrades, HQs and their wargear, that's nasty but tthat's also a hefty price tag. You want nasty, check this out : for 900 pts instead of 5 dev squads, you can get 5 full lascan predators for essencially the same 20 lascan shots but... Instead of a M6 T4 Sv3+ unit with 5 wounds (inc. 1 ablative), you get a M10 T7 Sv3+ unit with 11 wounds (inc. 5 ablative).

Backside is that your pred can die from 2 lascannons, somerhing that will never happen with 5 devs.

[Morticon]

 

Still just a 6++ but yah. The interwebs are super down on the Iron Hands chapter tactic (everyone gets "fnp") but I think it's pretty good, especially with all of the smite and mortal wound spam now.

 

Have to keep in mind that a lot of people will only post when they think something is unfair or weak. Chapter wide 6+ FNP is damned good as you get a second chance to prevent wounds. People knock the Death Company 6+ FNP save as well which is a shame.

 

Aothaine, its better than nothing.  That cant be debated.

 

But, your % chance of saving one wound is around 17%.  Your odds of saving any multi-damage wound then becomes so painfully small, its a joke. 

 

Its quite dismissable because basing tactics off anomalous longshots is a path to defeat.  If it was a 6+ to ignore the wound, not the damage, that would be a different story - and quite a cool mechanism. 

[Aothaine]

 

Aothaine, its better than nothing.  That cant be debated.

 

But, your % chance of saving one wound is around 17%.  Your odds of saving any multi-damage wound then becomes so painfully small, its a joke. 

 

 

Its quite dismissable because basing tactics off anomalous longshots is a path to defeat.  If it was a 6+ to ignore the wound, not the damage, that would be a different story - and quite a cool mechanism. 

 

 

I agree. Basing your tactics around it is silly. But it is a nice little buff to a unit that will be taking a lot of fire from the enemy.