Are Unique Characters 'Good' for the Hobby?

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

I think they're very necessary and good for both the hobby and game in moderation. The armies of the Badab War benefited from having a named IC to complete their themes, even if it was just a single Captain rank without an official model. When you start getting into Red Scorpions, Minotaurs, or Ultramarine territory where you have half a dozen or more ICs, it starts feeling more like a team of superheroes rather than a single recognizable leader.

 

I also think the game shouldn't make the ICs so good that they're mandatory. Kor'sarro Khan is an example of an IC that is too good and too defining. Vulkan He'stan would be another one. Back in the day, those two HQs defined their chapters and were mandatory for good lists due to their incredible bonuses. Ironically, Tyberos can be argued to be one as well as he used to be required to unlock most of the chapter's fluff, and usually provided extremely good boosts although being inferior to a generic equivalent HQ. A good example of an IC that you can use for flavor and theme, or do just as well without and creating your own HQ would be someone like the old Kayvaan Shrike or Korvydae. The former is an iconic figure and offers some neat tricks, while the latter unlocked completely new builds. However, neither were particularly auto-include and you could make an army that's just as good or even better by using generic HQs instead.

 

I think generic HQs really should have tools to be made on par with named ICs. It would require a lot of pages, but various subfactions getting unique tables and auras for their unnamed HQs would really help people make their own custom character and still do well without being forced to take legendary characters to not have a handicapped list. I feel this way about Primarchs especially. Great for Ultramarines that they have one, but everyone else would have to basically break their keywords to take him. There should be an equivalent available to every army in the game, whether that be a generic Chapter Master or Transcendent C'tan. As it is, Guilliman is head and shoulders above any other option in his faction and creates a strong incentive to either go Ultramarines or make some kind of crazy mixed list like the Assassin spam one with Celestine.

[Frater Cornelius]

I agree that some measure of characterization is necessary. Take Primaris, for example. They are bland as it is, without interesting special rules, but they also lack cool named characters, making it a massive snore fest.

[Ishagu]

Last edition it was all about no name White Scar and Iron Hands Chapter Masters.

 

8th is a big improvement over that.

[apologist]

I agree that some measure of characterization is necessary. Take Primaris, for example. They are bland as it is, without interesting special rules, but they also lack cool named characters, making it a massive snore fest.

 

I think that's at the root of the problem. The existence of special characters has created the impression it's GW's job to create characters and stories, whereas 40k can (I'd argue should) be about making your own stories.

[Sete]

Even if I want to create my own story with Primaris, I can't because they are lacking options.

 

Model and rulewise.

[Adeptus]

This third point is perhaps my biggest regret. On a personal level, I'd dearly love to play more scenario-led stuff – deliberately unbalanced, explorative and cooperative; but there's a real entrenched idea of balance as king in 40k, and the idea of moving away from equal points matches just hasn't picked up any traction with my gaming group. Again, that's not a criticism; having grown up with match-style play, I'm as clueless as anyone as to where to start creating fun unbalanced scenarios, rather than turgid massacres!

 

We've found the narrative missions out of the rulebook are a great way to ease people into the world of asymmetrical battles. They've got the official GW stamp so if the mission turns out to be a washout no one player feels as responsible, and there's always the potential to swap sides and replay the mission if one player feels hard done by.

[Heru]

Last edition it was all about no name White Scar and Iron Hands Chapter Masters.

 

8th is a big improvement over that.

Yeah you don't even get no-name Chapter Masters anymore...

[Ishagu]

Well, you can create one.

To be fair you can still make a tough beat-stick Chapter Master, and for cheaper.

 

It's just that their utility is different now that they can't join units.

[Charlo]

I like special unique characters.

 

I can sort of  understand why people don't, but that whole "opponents permission" thing is a holdover grudge from previous editions of the game.

[Scribe]

Yeah the opponents permission stuff (SC's, FW....) was always lame. My issue with SC's has always been that they are better than one can make on their own, which defeats the purpose of making 'my' army. Same with formations spam in 7th. I dont want to play GW's list, I want to play mine.

[Ishagu]

Funny, very few complained about formations in 7th.

They literally wrote your list for you :-P

[deathspectersgt7]

In our group we don't allow GW characters you have to create your own. 

[Mileposter]

The only 'character' I've refused to play against is Girlyman, and even then, only after I had to prove to a player that a no-unique-character C:SM army could easily overcome the Primaris Primarch army list in a 'best of three' set of games. After that, playing against a Primarch list is boring because it's just the same tactic over and over.

 

I don't like that the Ultramarine's Primarch has become a crutch rather than an inspiration. That, to me, is the risk of named characters.

 

That said, I don't find the existence of them or their stats to be inherently bad - just so long as they don't become a crutch. In my FLGS meta (Which is different from my GW Store Meta!) the named chapter characters are almost always "Counts As" models because we've had too much fun making them 'Our' characters. My friend's 'Vulkan' has a Power Sword. Just happens to have the same stats as the Spear. Why not?

 

To play my own Devil's Advocate and poke at the lemming nature of some consumers: It's worth noting that sometimes the named characters only become a crutch because they imagine the need rather than actually have it. I've seen some folk argue that Shrike must be in a Raven Guard army list because without him it's not Raven Guard enough, or that it's tactically inferior. It's not. It's just different.

[totgeboren]

I don't mind special characters from a rules and game play point of view, but they are horribly boring from a background point of view!

Don't get me wrong, some have interesting stories behind them, but when I play with someone I want to tell our story, not GWs story. Especially when something happens in-game that could not be part of GWs story. Like, random Land Raider blasts Eldrad to bits, or Abaddon gets turned into a Spawn after slaying a random SM Sgt or something like that.

Having our own characters makes a story. Like, I have played lots of Nid vs Ork games, and the struggle of my count-as Snikrot as he tries to ambush the nids have become really memorable (it's not going too well for him!)

This is fun because it's my character. When it's GWs character and they consistently suck, it just breaks the established storyline.

[Claws and Effect]

Sure they're good for it.

 

Some players are drawn to the hobby for the chance to create their own dudes.

 

Others are drawn in after reading a book and want to play as the dude who starred in the book that got them intetested.

 

Without rules and models for unique characters the game isn't as interesting for the latter type of player.

[Kinstryfe]

In my FLGS meta (Which is different from my GW Store Meta!) the named chapter characters are almost always "Counts As" models because we've had too much fun making them 'Our' characters. My friend's 'Vulkan' has a Power Sword. Just happens to have the same stats as the Spear. Why not?To play my own Devil's Advocate and poke at the lemming nature of some consumers: It's worth noting that sometimes the named characters only become a crutch because they imagine the need rather than actually have it. I've seen some folk argue that Shrike must be in a Raven Guard army list because without him it's not Raven Guard enough, or that it's tactically inferior. It's not. It's just different.

See, this attitude I like. Separate the rules for "Salamanders Chapter Master" from the identity of the character. They should just make it like this. "Salamanders Chapter Master" for the unit entry and give the bio of one or more characters who have held this roll, maybe a successor chapter example as well. It would give the best of both worlds, letting you have rules to benefit your army but not locking you into X Entity.

 

Another thing most Marine army lists have lacked is acknowledgement of how chapters actually work. Let us pick a history for our Captains. Tactical company gives standard reroll aura, Assault company gives an aura to reroll assault distance, Devastator gives a boost too heavy weapons or something. The Raven Guard, I think, still have a Devastator company. It would have been quite easy to come up with a build-a-Captain system, with a few possible rules and a small selection of relics for each chapter, to give us the means to make pretty much any character archetypes we wanted...

[Slave to Darkness]

It wouldn't be that hard either. They did rules back in 2nd ed for your own chapter masters. 

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

Funny, very few complained about formations in 7th.

They literally wrote your list for you :-P

 

From my observations, there was quite a lot of complaints about formations, mostly either due to formations offering bonuses that were "too good" for what the formation required you to take or how the formation restricted you (Battle Company, for example), or that formations were "too restrictive" or "not good enough" (any of the non-competitive, non-Decurion formations).

 

I mean, people still used them, but they still complained about it.

[Sugarlessllama]

Personally, I am more of a fan of making your own characters. That is the main reason why I came to 40K from Warmachine. However, I can see people really liking certain characters for their lore. I know there were a few warcasters I used to play even though they were not the best for the current meta simply because I liked them.

[Scribe]

 

 

Funny, very few complained about formations in 7th.

They literally wrote your list for you :-P

From my observations, there was quite a lot of complaints about formations, mostly either due to formations offering bonuses that were "too good" for what the formation required you to take or how the formation restricted you (Battle Company, for example), or that formations were "too restrictive" or "not good enough" (any of the non-competitive, non-Decurion formations).

 

I mean, people still used them, but they still complained about it.

I forget how rose tinted some people like their glasses.

 

Plenty of people hated formations, for many of the reasons people dislike SCs.

 

Some company men forget these things.

[MysticTemplar]

Out of curiosity, how are you defining 'the hobby'?

 

I ask, because people will generally have very different definitions of what they're looking at getting out of 40k - I, personally, am a wargamer, first and foremost, and I tend to think of special characters as additional options, and so they are as positive as extra options for a codex always are.

 

(That, and I've never felt particularly bound by official fluff or colors. If I'm going to paint an army for the table, I'm going to paint them however I darn well please.)

[Cpt_Reaper]

I think the best way to make a Special Character is how the Crimson Slaughter supplement made Kranon.

 

Here is a chaos Lord with these upgrades. Ta-da it's Kranon.

 

One thing I hate is the argument that my homebrew character cannot be as good as Sicarius or Kantor because otherwise you'd have heard of him. Well I can tell you a local craftworld player knows him!

[Atrus]

SC have definately gotten over the top these days. Back in the day of the witch hunter codex, the Living Saint (aka celeatine these days) was a jump pack cannoness with blessed weapon with smidge better stats that could get back up. It was a little different flavour. In fact back then i had friend more terrified of my jump packing eviscerator toting canonessi than they were of the saint. These days, canoness cant have jump pack so straight away cant even begin to match celestine. All customization for generic units is gone.

 

Its this customisation that i enjoy the most. Ive never liked geedubs special characters. Ive always wanted to play my own. I want to play my Cannoness Katran who grew up in a ministorum chapel after being offered as tithe. Was inducted as a novice after faithful declarations in the face of an arch heretic. Who helped repel a daemonic incursion brought on by the ministorums chief composer and punished the father figure priest whose laxity had lead to it. And a slew of other things that get added with games making a character far more compelling than what geedub makes (to me at least).

 

I have models in my collection with stories of their own but i cant field them because the customisation is gone :(

[Volt]

I say can all special characters, and instead completely overhaul the Special Character datasheets into a build-a-character system where everything is points/power buy. Instead of just selecting Marneus Calgar, you build a Chapter Master with a loadout similar to his fluff, buy special rules you believe fit him well for the points level you're playing at, and just field your old Calgar model. There's no need to give special characters beyond the likes of Primarchs or Phoenix Lords their own datasheet when virtually all special characters in 40k are incredibly cookie-cutter variants over some default. Calgar, Azrael, Dante, etc are all just Chapter Masters +1. Just like Eldrad is an Eldar Farseer +1 or Ghazghkull is just an Ork Warboss +1 for all intents and purposes. Not only does this allow you to tailor a special character to certain levels and select a build that you like, but it also allows homebrews to exist on a level playing field while also hamstringing the ridiculously OP special characters.

 

Plus it allows GW to reduce the amount of pages in a rulebook, which in a sane world would mean a price reduction in the Codex. 

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

I say can all special characters, and instead completely overhaul the Special Character datasheets into a build-a-character system where everything is points/power buy. Instead of just selecting Marneus Calgar, you build a Chapter Master with a loadout similar to his fluff, buy special rules you believe fit him well for the points level you're playing at, and just field your old Calgar model. There's no need to give special characters beyond the likes of Primarchs or Phoenix Lords their own datasheet when virtually all special characters in 40k are incredibly cookie-cutter variants over some default. Calgar, Azrael, Dante, etc are all just Chapter Masters +1. Just like Eldrad is an Eldar Farseer +1 or Ghazghkull is just an Ork Warboss +1 for all intents and purposes. Not only does this allow you to tailor a special character to certain levels and select a build that you like, but it also allows homebrews to exist on a level playing field while also hamstringing the ridiculously OP special characters.

 

Plus it allows GW to reduce the amount of pages in a rulebook, which in a sane world would mean a price reduction in the Codex. 

 

Seems like kind of an arbitrary cut off point. If the argument was that Primarchs and Phoenix Lords are too distinguishable to be made generic customizable units, the same can be said of famous figures like Creed, Calgar, or Dante, at least in terms of fluff. I think it might even be worthwhile to say that things like Primarchs and Phoenix Lords are way too powerful and legendary and shouldn't be playable at all outside Apocalypse or narrative campaigns only. Phoenix Lords aren't even Lords of War, whereas Calgar and even Gabriel Seth were apparently notable enough to be even higher than HQ.