Loyalists and Traitors, Traitors are Loyal?

[Damo1701]

With the Heresy era in full swing, Dark Imperium released and Primarchs returning, something has been nagging at the back of my mind.

 

Now, I can never remember who ordered the Geneseed of the Traitor Legions to be "sealed away" and the various rumours from time to time about certain chapters utilising Traitor Geneseed, for example.

 

Now, when you consider the crisis many Loyal chapters have been in over the 30-odd years of 40k fluff, with chapters being mentioned as extinct, only to pop up again in fluff as "ragged survivors" to being enough for Guilliman to reinforce/rebuild the chapter with his Primaris stocks.

 

Ok, that is the basework for this thread laid, kind of.

 

Have we always assumed that the genestock of the Traitor Legions was unalterably corrupt from the moment of creation, or, is this something that has been specifically stated, and I've just missed it?  Aside from the mutation issues the Thousand Sons experienced, and the instability of Space Wolf Geneseed away from Fenrisian relics (Mainly the ill-fated Wolf Brothers), weren't the other Legions' Genesees supposedly fairly stable/pure, at that time rather than in the 40k era.

 

What would a renegade/heretical/under orders techpreist do if confronted with ex-legion genebanks, and the license to create "better" space marines?  Would he utilise ALL the geneseed he could reach, or, limit himself to just the samples/stocks he has of the loyalists?

 

Now, the way I see it, for both Imperial forces and the possibility of renegade/chaos forces is as follows:

 

Sure, stable geneseed would have been used, though, wasn't there something about the Primaris process stabilising geneseed like the Wolves or Blood Angels?  Cawl had access to Terran/Martian held genestocks for all the legions, perhaps a "cure" for the Thousand Sons mutations was found, the Geneseed stabilised, and Marines put into production.

 

What of the Sons of Horus, Iron Warriors, Word Bearers, Night Lords, Alpha Legion, World Eaters, Emperor's Children (another that needed "perfecting"), and Death Guard?  

 

World Eaters were they way they were mainly due to the Butchers Nails, correct?  With that in mind, they would make great marines that could go the extra mile, without the psycho-surgery that plagued the World Eaters, and would return them to the War Hounds.

 

Without Horus, the Geneseed of the Luna Wolves was stable, possibly as stable as the 40k era Ultramarines Geneseed, giving rise to another chapter with the stability required now.

 

Word Bearers?  That's the sticking point.  Who is to say whether the betrayal of Lorgar was in his DNA?  Perhaps we would see another chapter as fiercely loyal and zealous as the Black Templars.  Maybe even finding a way to balance the loyalty and zealotry with more tactical acumen than some of the zealous chapters are given credit for.

 

I guess, without arguing for every traitor legion around, the point I'm trying to make is this:  Without the Primarchs, and possibly Erebus/Typhon/Kor Phaeron etc, would the Genes of the traitors still make loyal marines, especially if they are/are not informed of their genetic legacy?

 

I mean, rumours are persisting tha tthe Blood Ravens are Thousand Sons progeny...

 

What are your thoughts?  Is it too convoluted to use traitor geneseed to create loyal marines, primaris or not?

[Timur]

It depends on how far science had advanced in 40K.  If the Imperium is still frozen in post heresy technology with advancement being heresy, then no.

If moving the story along means being open enough to advance science and knowledge, then yes.

 

There is nothing genetically "wrong" with traitor geneseed.  Their primarch and officers decided to make (from loyalist perspective) a bad decision.  There is no reason to think the geneseed was responsible for that.  That logic would make SW, BA, those loyal dragon guys, etc traitors, or unusable because of mutation.

 

Honestly it would be a better story device for dark imperium, that the stresses on the imperium is causing the questioning of the status quo, and the return to scientific advancement.

 

To me, that would be a more compelling reason for adding primaris and generally refreshing the forces and equipment of imperial forces than waking up Grandpa van Winkle to take charge of his "just as planned" marines.

[Brother Captain Ed]

Ummm...I'm not sure if you've been following, but Warhammer comes down pretty hard on one side of the nature vs. nurture debate when it comes to space marines.

 

The "wrong" with traitor geneseed is that space marines are almost supernaturally inclined to follow their primarchs. The places where they do not are universally notable for being the exception of heroes. And, even then, most of the known space marines who defied their primarchs in turning chaos were terrans who fought for the Emperor Himself at some point. Guilliman is right to forbid Cawl from dabbling with traitor grenades.

[Damo1701]

Ummm...I'm not sure if you've been following, but Warhammer comes down pretty hard on one side of the nature vs. nurture debate when it comes to space marines.

 

The "wrong" with traitor geneseed is that space marines are almost supernaturally inclined to follow their primarchs. The places where they do not are universally notable for being the exception of heroes. And, even then, most of the known space marines who defied their primarchs in turning chaos were terrans who fought for the Emperor Himself at some point. Guilliman is right to forbid Cawl from dabbling with traitor grenades.

 

Been around since 2nd edition, so.... Just a little while.

 

Without access to the Primarchs of said traitor legions, though, is there a case?

 

Notable Loyalists from the Traitor Legions include Garviel Loken, Saul Tarvitz, Nathaniel Garro, Macer Varren, and so on.  Not to mention the masses that were cleansed with Istvaan III.  Therefore, doesn't it stand to reason that the Geneseed has little-to-no effect on loyalty, and is solely reliant on the personal charcteristics of the individual receiving it?

 

If we look at the Dark Angels, a fractured, but (and no debating the dead horse please) loyal legion, who did arrive to defend Terra, it was Calibanites who did the travelling to Terra, as the Lion sent all the Terrans to Caliban, to "train new recruits."  Now, we all know how that turned out, as well as Astartes from loyal legions joining the traitors.  I remember reading somewhere about a Raven Guard marine joining the Night Lords, at least, I think I do, possibly in one of the HH anthologies.

 

So, this is what has made me wonder about the use of genetic material from stable sources, which just happened to have a poor showing from their genetic providers.  In the 2 seconds to midnight part of 40k, just before Guilliman woke up etc, Astartes numbers are sorely pressed, so, knowing this, wouldn't Cawl use all the material he could get his mechadendrites on?  Heck, the only thing holding him back is Genestock, humanity is still plentiful for gathering the children like harvesting corn...

[Timur]

@Ed: I don't believe I'm wrong within the context of 40k fluff.  "Traitor" marines and their geneseed, made up parts of the inquisition and probably the Grey Knights.  As I pointed out above, other than demonstrably embracing chaos with all the tentacles, pus, and such, the raw geneseed doesn't actually display any causality to "traitor" Legionares turning on the Imperium.  That was an individual and conscious choice, or following their officers, blindly or otherwise.

 

The lore is not conclusive in any way on terran marines being more predisposed to heresy.  In fact a lot of terrible homeworlds demonstrate more chaos influence on potential marine stock than holy terra.

 

Not to mention the idea of the dichotomy in the imperium between advancing science and keeping it ossified at the point of the empy's fall.  This is one of my favorite aspects of the fluff, and is most definitely a more compelling and interesting way to advance the plot over the current reboot involving Saturday morning cartoons and 8 year old writers.

[Jagus Kumkani]

 

Ummm...I'm not sure if you've been following, but Warhammer comes down pretty hard on one side of the nature vs. nurture debate when it comes to space marines.

 

The "wrong" with traitor geneseed is that space marines are almost supernaturally inclined to follow their primarchs. The places where they do not are universally notable for being the exception of heroes. And, even then, most of the known space marines who defied their primarchs in turning chaos were terrans who fought for the Emperor Himself at some point. Guilliman is right to forbid Cawl from dabbling with traitor grenades.

 

Been around since 2nd edition, so.... Just a little while.

 

Without access to the Primarchs of said traitor legions, though, is there a case?

 

Notable Loyalists from the Traitor Legions include Garviel Loken, Saul Tarvitz, Nathaniel Garro, Macer Varren, and so on.  Not to mention the masses that were cleansed with Istvaan III.  Therefore, doesn't it stand to reason that the Geneseed has little-to-no effect on loyalty, and is solely reliant on the personal charcteristics of the individual receiving it?

 

If we look at the Dark Angels, a fractured, but (and no debating the dead horse please) loyal legion, who did arrive to defend Terra, it was Calibanites who did the travelling to Terra, as the Lion sent all the Terrans to Caliban, to "train new recruits."  Now, we all know how that turned out, as well as Astartes from loyal legions joining the traitors.  I remember reading somewhere about a Raven Guard marine joining the Night Lords, at least, I think I do, possibly in one of the HH anthologies.

 

So, this is what has made me wonder about the use of genetic material from stable sources, which just happened to have a poor showing from their genetic providers.  In the 2 seconds to midnight part of 40k, just before Guilliman woke up etc, Astartes numbers are sorely pressed, so, knowing this, wouldn't Cawl use all the material he could get his mechadendrites on?  Heck, the only thing holding him back is Genestock, humanity is still plentiful for gathering the children like harvesting corn...

 

With the hammer coming down in the Imperium, it would be interesting to see if Cawl did actually use all of the genetic material at his disposal. The gene-seed of Traitor Primarchs....the Primarchs returning....

It could make for a narrative that the Primaris don't know where to put their loyalties when it comes to their gene-seed and their Primarch (Mortorian or Magnus) and their duty to the the Throne. Could cause some strife in the Chapters with Primaris. Maybe we could see another civil war between the Astartes.

[Sete]

The Imperium had chapters of Ultramarines gene

seed turning to chaos. Are the Ultramarines heretics? Yes.

[Bremon]

More interesting and likely source of internal strife in the Imperium is Russ/Lion not liking the direction Guilliman is taking things, not "bad genes". It's more interesting when characters make choices of their own volition rather than a genetic predisposition, where they "had no choice".

[Arkangilos]

It's likely a mix of things. In Ancient Rome, a lot of times legions and other units that were completely wiped out would not be reconstituted because it was bad luck, so the legions would stay gone.

 

In the Imperium I imagine there are two points against using traitor geneseed.

 

The first being that the traitors dishonored their lines. Several examples in 40k has punishment for breaking laws as the cessation of the blood line (Dark Heresy's Arbite book has several generations worth of execution for crimes committed by one person. A dark angel in a short story wiped a hero's family name out of a book and commanded his family live in dishonor, for examples). So it may not even be that he is afraid of the geneseed leading to corruption, it could be that he wants their legacy completely erased. He wants to kill the blood line.

 

The second point is "why?".

 

There is zero reason to use geneseed from their lineages. They still have plenty of geneseed on mars from loyalists they can use. What benefit will they have by adding the others?

Edited September 14, 2017 by Arkangilos

[Damo1701]

The second point is "why?".

 

There is zero reason to use geneseed from their lineages. They still have plenty of geneseed on mars from loyalists they can use. What benefit will they have by adding the others?

Firstly, why not?

 

Secondly: if you remember, legions were tens of thousands strong, and upwards. Each also brought, if not unique, then certainly close to unique methods of war and characteristics.

 

Otherwise, why not just make 20 Ultramarine legions? Or 20 Death Legions?

 

The point I'm trying to get at is to have the diversity we, as players would like, isn't it time that we accepted when people want to use traitor legion genestock? Especially when it comes to Primaris Marines? Thinking about their fluff, they couldn't possibly have enough, in the beginning, to create anywhere close to the numbers that have been hinted at. That's excluding the 10k year time span, and the fact the Ultima Founding created so many new chapters, resurrected extinct chapters, and brought the reinforcements hinted at for all other chapters. Making use of all genestock at hand could possibly account for it. IMHO.

[Bremon]

What legion tactics are we missing out on by not using the other geneseeds? For the most part the heretics are a big bowl of loyalist copypasta with a side of horns. Bike chapter? Got it. Jump packs? Got it. Assault heavy? Gun line? Siege? Got it, got it, got it. Flamer spam? Melta spam? Bolter spam? Stealth? Got all that too. I don't see what we're missing but I'm happy to be informed.

 

The most interesting aspects of heretics comes from Chaos gods so I don't foresee vanilla fatmarines with T5 without getting more Gravis armoured marines. Mad max style guitar wielding devastators, or vanilla flavoured dust marines also seem unlikely as possibilities.

[Arkangilos]

Why not isn't a question you ask when trying to figure out strategies, or when figuring out what job you want to run. Why is (literally, in both the military and industrial world). You say, "why do I use time and energy on this?"

 

If the answer is good and the payoff is strong, you use it.

 

The thing is, none of those legions offer anything that the other chapters don't. Most of the differences were literally cultural differences that spurred on different tactics. I'm sure you know this, being deep in the lore, but not all ultra successors fight the same. Some are more aggressive. Some are more passive.

 

What do the World Eaters without butchers nails offer that Blood Angels do not? What do Luna Wolves without Horus offer that any other chapters don't?

 

What about iron warriors? What do they offer that Fists do not?

 

I can give you plenty of why nots: they *might* be more corruptible (so even if not the case, it is a risk they have to consider). They will most likely be trusted even less by the Imperium (creating strategic team problems, another big risk). They have been dishonored by their forebearers (a cultural issue, but an issue). And there are plenty of genetic samples of loyalist legions that can be used to create space marines that are just as good.

 

So again, Why?

What do they have to offer?

Edited September 14, 2017 by Arkangilos

[No Foes Remain]

Just a point about gene-seed. HH book 3 elaborated and said that Iron Warrior's gene-seed was really stable and had a really low regection rate in comparison to some of the other gene-seeds, its why they were able to stay average/above average in astartes numbers despite they terrible losses they took. If I was Crawl I'd want to bring the IV^th legion gene-seed back.

[Damo1701]

Psyker-heavy chapters that have an unhealthy obsession with learning all the mysteries of the Warp?

 

Or a chapter that specialises itself in environments that would give other chapters pause?

 

Let's think about a chapter that takes minimal losses due to the fact their method of war is so precise that, almost preternaturally, they never get blindsided or whatever.

 

As we know, Astartes generally won't baulk at killing whoever needs to be killed. Saying that, most Chapters will generally draw the line at a general civilian population, while others will actively refuse. Let's create one that will do whatever is required to end any threat.

 

I'm not saying we necessarily need specific rules for loyalists using traitor Geneseed, but some people are very anti-traitor genestock.

 

It's just occurring to me that the Primaris release could be an ideal time to either use chaos marine rules, if that's what you want, or just writing traitor genestock based loyalist DIY chapters.

[Arkangilos]

The DG only specialized in those environments because their Primarch grew up in those environments. It had nothing to do with their geneseed. So you don't need it for that.

 

The Thousand Sons one is a perfect example of an unnecessary risk. The Imperium doesn't want or need a chapter of all Psykers beyond the GK. Psykers are a HUGE threat, and the only reason the GK can exist is because they are spliced with the Emperor's geneseed and go through excruciating recruitment screening and training. Not to mention that the TS suffered from the flesh change, and their whole line was damned by Magnus so the flesh change would stop. Then the rubric affected the rest of them after that.

 

So why exactly do you want a chapter that would actively break the law and delve too deep into the warp? What benefit would that bring? I would definitely consider it too great a risk.

 

So again, why?

 

Plus their respective cultures and geneseed only made them more susceptible to chaos. Especially the TS.

Edited September 14, 2017 by Arkangilos

[Damo1701]

Because there can be some awesome stories about a chapter finding out they are descended from a traitor legion.

 

How would they handle it? How do they find out? Do they fight ever harder to protect their secret, or turn renegade? Do they wear it loud and proud, fighting to disprove doubts and doubters?

 

In a post Gathering Storm Imperium, there is one authority when it comes to Astartes in general, and Primaris in specific, is Guilliman. If he wanted to found a chapter based off stable Geneseed, regardless of it's source. Perhaps because of the source, a chapter that knows where it came from fights ever harder and proves their loyalty to Guilliman and the Imperium.

 

Stories. That's what we are ultimately here for, in one way or another isn't it?

[Arkangilos]

Right, but in lore he said no. And I like that he said no, because it is consistent with the Imperium's culture.

[Bremon]

Pretty sure Roboute hasn't forgotten his friends and brothers fighting each other while he was on the wrong side of the galaxy, leading to the Emperor being a skeleton in a chair. I don't find it hard to believe that his opinion would still be "screw those guys and their geneseeds".

[Damo1701]

       scrap code ate my  post again...

Edited September 14, 2017 by Damo1701

[Jagus Kumkani]

I have to agree Damo. It may not be canon or the culture of the Imperium, but what kind of stories can we get out of the new grim dark of the 41k? Primaris and traitor gene-seed could make for some great story telling. How do Primaris fit into the narrative of this universe? Where direction is this story gonna take with the return of Primarchs and Primaris Marines? We need some grim dark in this...and this could be it.

[Arkangilos]

See I just don't think it's interesting. It doesn't really add anything other than breaking immersion. And it certainly won't add grim dark. Edited September 14, 2017 by Arkangilos

[Jagus Kumkani]

What direction would you like the narrative to take?

[Arkangilos]

The current one, where traitor geneseed is forbidden. It fits the lore, fits the universe, fits the characters, and fits the fact that Guilliman saw the betrayal first hand and was nearly killed by his brother. I sure as hell would want all traces of their "family" removed. I would want their entire genetic legacy and "blood line" erased.

[Damo1701]

I have to agree Damo. It may not be canon or the culture of the Imperium, but what kind of stories can we get out of the new grim dark of the 41k? Primaris and traitor gene-seed could make for some great story telling. How do Primaris fit into the narrative of this universe? Where direction is this story gonna take with the return of Primarchs and Primaris Marines? We need some grim dark in this...and this could be it.

 

Exactly!

 

Here's an example rattling around in my brain that MAY just get me to seriously consider actively collecting a Primaris force, other than just the Dark Imperium stuff.

 

The Grey Wardens are a chapter of Primaris Marines founded as the Indomitus Crusade was launched.  Their tasking orders were to head for Ultramar to reinforce planets under attack by the Death Guard.

 

Upon platenfall, the Astartes received little in the way of incoming fire from the Heretic Astartes, just facing hordes of Pox Walkers and Plague Bearers and taking casualties as they advanced towards the ritual the Death Guard were performing.  Intent to purge the heretics and disrupt their plans burning in their hearts and minds.

 

As the Astartes reached the ritual site, one of the sorcerers began to expand rapidly.  Bolt shells and plasma bursts were ineffective against the grossly expanding traitor.  With the sound of two planets colliding, an enormous figure emerged from the cloud of flies and blood where the sorcerer had been, sickly robes flapping in the warp-born currents that replaced natural winds, a scythe larger than two Astartes held in one emaciated and decaying hand while the other circled the summoning site.

 

In an instant the vox-net went wild.  Primaris Astartes bending their knee to the abomination that had forced its way through one of its followers, the rest falling back in confusion.  Confusion born of their brothers' behaviour and the sense of kinship they felt with this heretic, they had always been told they were sons of Ferrus Manus.  Manus was their gene-sire, yet those who fell back reported other brothers attempting to prevent them from leaving.

 

The remaining active officers rallied the last of the astartes and pulled back to orbit.  An investigation was due.  They would need Geneseed of both the Iron Hands and the Death Guard.  Their hertiage must be known, to prevent shame falling on them, to excise the shame of brothers kneeling to a daemon Primarch...  Answers...

[Jagus Kumkani]

 

I have to agree Damo. It may not be canon or the culture of the Imperium, but what kind of stories can we get out of the new grim dark of the 41k? Primaris and traitor gene-seed could make for some great story telling. How do Primaris fit into the narrative of this universe? Where direction is this story gonna take with the return of Primarchs and Primaris Marines? We need some grim dark in this...and this could be it.

 

Exactly!

 

Here's an example rattling around in my brain that MAY just get me to seriously consider actively collecting a Primaris force, other than just the Dark Imperium stuff.

 

The Grey Wardens are a chapter of Primaris Marines founded as the Indomitus Crusade was launched.  Their tasking orders were to head for Ultramar to reinforce planets under attack by the Death Guard.

 

Upon platenfall, the Astartes received little in the way of incoming fire from the Heretic Astartes, just facing hordes of Pox Walkers and Plague Bearers and taking casualties as they advanced towards the ritual the Death Guard were performing.  Intent to purge the heretics and disrupt their plans burning in their hearts and minds.

 

As the Astartes reached the ritual site, one of the sorcerers began to expand rapidly.  Bolt shells and plasma bursts were ineffective against the grossly expanding traitor.  With the sound of two planets colliding, an enormous figure emerged from the cloud of flies and blood where the sorcerer had been, sickly robes flapping in the warp-born currents that replaced natural winds, a scythe larger than two Astartes held in one emaciated and decaying hand while the other circled the summoning site.

 

In an instant the vox-net went wild.  Primaris Astartes bending their knee to the abomination that had forced its way through one of its followers, the rest falling back in confusion.  Confusion born of their brothers' behaviour and the sense of kinship they felt with this heretic, they had always been told they were sons of Ferrus Manus.  Manus was their gene-sire, yet those who fell back reported other brothers attempting to prevent them from leaving.

 

The remaining active officers rallied the last of the astartes and pulled back to orbit.  An investigation was due.  They would need Geneseed of both the Iron Hands and the Death Guard.  Their hertiage must be known, to prevent shame falling on them, to excise the shame of brothers kneeling to a daemon Primarch...  Answers...

Precisly my friend. There is potentiality in the return of Primarchs and Primaris. It could be pretty grim dark if this were to happen with Primaris. Pledging their loyalty to their daemon gene-fathers. Guilliman's Indomitus Crusade was for nothing. His work 10k ago was for nothing and another enemy has emerged. They've plunged themselves into another civil war. Plus the xenos, heretics and chaos still encroaching...

 

This is what I'd like to see...