Loyalists and Traitors, Traitors are Loyal?

[Kinstryfe]

Ooh, I've always loved this topic. As I see it, with the bureaucratic mess that is the Imperium, and a few things revealed from fluff over the years, I think it's almost impossible that all 20 geneseed stains haven't already been utilized, possibly repeatedly, with one or two possible exceptions. Two geneseed strains are known to be problematic, that of Magnus and Russ. Magnus' seed is prone to spontaneous mutation, shown on multiple occasions. Russ' seed seems to require something extra, possibly gene therapy like the settlers of Fenris had, possibly something different (the Terran wolves had to take to the geneseed somehow, right?). Of the remaining 18, none are explicitly stated to have critical mutation rates, and most strains are in the low-to-acceptable rate of mutation range. Given that there are multiple references to chapters not knowing from whom they are descended, it's stands to reason that by the best efforts of the apothecarion, there is no foolproof way known to determine geneseed source. Add into this the fact that at least one instance hints at Primarchs being genetically very similar (Kurze being able to activate a Dark Angels order reserved for the Lion due to genetic similarly), it stands to reason that there are only two ways to determine a chapter's generic lineage: an uninterrupted accounting of the source and transport history of the geneseed (ex, we know that this geneseed was submitted with proper clearance codes and rites by the Dark Angels, under watch of apothecary Nemiel on such a date, and has been housed uninterrupted in this gene vault with security checks performed blah blah blah), or by implantation and making an educated guess if and only if it happens to be a geneseed with known, unique side effects. (Marines turn obsidian black? 97.635% chance of Vulkan ancestry. Turn stark white? 62.566% chance of Corax ancestry. We're sure it's not Curze. I mean, we're pretty sure. Like...62.566% sure...) Given the ambiguity here, I'd argue it's highly likely that in a setting like the Imperium, where knowledge begets heresy, that even knowledge of who the traitors were is guarded pretty carefully, and that a tech adept ordered to go fetch a geneseed sample from the vaults for a routine implantation may have no idea why you don't use vault II, or XIV.

This can also reconcile with why some chapters just go rogue suddenly. Marines, as mentioned up thread, often have an impulse to obey their Primarch against their own judgement, which some lineages seem to feel stronger than others. It becomes a numbers game for the Imperium, knowing that with proper knowledge most Marine chapters will be from loyal stock, but that all it took was a particularly dumb tech thrall to misread an order, or a tech adept to accidentally order vault IV instead of VI and you've created a thousand super soldiers with Perturabo's geneseed, and they'll act exemplary for hundreds of years until they happen to encounter an Iron Warriors warband and feel that little pull in their psyches...

 

Anyway, that's my long rambling theory on the state of geneseed in the Imperium.

[Damo1701]

 

Precisly my friend. There is potentiality in the return of Primarchs and Primaris. It could be pretty grim dark if this were to happen with Primaris. Pledging their loyalty to their daemon gene-fathers. Guilliman's Indomitus Crusade was for nothing. His work 10k ago was for nothing and another enemy has emerged. They've plunged themselves into another civil war. Plus the xenos, heretics and chaos still encroaching...

 

This is what I'd like to see...

 

 

Another theme could be a loyalist Primarch returning, finding Primaris marines in teh remnants of their Legion, now a Chapter, and going bat :cuss crazy about such heresy.

 

This then leads to some form of conflict between the new Primarch and Guilliman!  Meanwhile, other threats are closing in etc.

 

There can be so much happening with the Primaris if people let their imagination go wild with it.

 

I would honestly love to see more strife than rainbows and kittens surrounding the Primaris.  I mean, if the Imperium is SO set in its ways, where are things like centurions and Primaris marines coming from?  Even on the orders of a Primarch...  Heresy is Heresy is an argument that has been mentioned several times in this thread, without addressing the fact that the Primaris are heretical due to their existence in the advancement-phobic setting we've become accustomed to.  If that aspect is going to vanish with the awakening of Guilliman, then bring in the other forms of strife.

 

Obviously, we can write whatever we want to about our armies, and opponents can think what they like.  However, there have been people who have tried this exact thing, and received so much flak for it, I decided to start this discussion, and see WHY people are so entrenched for part of the fluff, but accepting other parts that are just as bad if you view them both together.

 

Personally, I'm trying to make the best out of the worst fluff we've had for a while.  Super-Space Marines from teh basement of Mars?  All created in secret?  Ok... what can I do with this to make it both more interesting and more palatable?

 

I am glad there are some others who think this way too :)

[Arkangilos]

But none of that was good... and it only reinforces why it's a good idea that they don't use Primaris, and it only proves that Guilliman made the right choice.

 

Now, Cawl working in secret on the other hand... I'm not opposed to a secret experiment done by Cawl to prove his point that they could, and then that go wrong.

[Arkangilos]

Here, this resource tells why so many are against it.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/132379-guide-to-diying/

 

It is much like I said, there is literally ZERO need to take this risk.

[Damo1701]

But none of that was good... and it only reinforces why it's a good idea that they don't use Primaris, and it only proves that Guilliman made the right choice.

 

Now, Cawl working in secret on the other hand... I'm not opposed to a secret experiment done by Cawl to prove his point that they could, and then that go wrong.

 

None of what was good?  The ideas, or the writing?

 

I know I'm no author, and am literally just spitballing ideas in this thread for now.

 

Now, Cawl could be working in secret, experimenting with traitor Geneseed, if, perhaps I haven't openly mentioned it, then it was in teh post that the scrapcode issue ate, was behind my rough Death Guard scions scenario.

 

Edit:

 

 

Don’t claim your chapter was created by a Primarch in secret

The Primarchs commanded legions, why would they create a ‘secret’ chapter instead of adding more men to their legion. More to the point, there was twenty legions in existence; there was no need for a ‘secret’ chapter as there was more than enough manpower around

 

And, here, we see the Primaris issue at hand.  If you don't want loyalists from traitors, then Primaris shouldn't exist either....  Can't pick and choose the rules now can we?

Edited September 14, 2017 by Damo1701

[Claws and Effect]

What of the fact that several of the Traitor Primarchs didn't make that choice of their own volition?

 

Magnus didn't want to turn traitor. He was forced into it when the Space Wolves were manipulated into attacking his homeworld.

 

Fulgrim was possessed by a daemonic sword. He made a dumb decision to keep it in the first place, but a case can be made that he didn't make the conscious decision to be a traitor.

 

You can even make a case for Horus himself being manipulated into it.

 

And it is questionable whether Alpharius and Omegon were traitors at all.

 

Lorgar, Curze, and Angron definitely decided on their own. Mortarion did as well, but later realized he chose poorly.

 

Not sure on Perturabo. Pretty sure he turned voluntarily out of jealousy and spite.

 

If the concern is that they could be turned by a Daemon Primarch due to their compulsion to obey, then using Night Lords and Luna Wolves geneseed should be safe, as their Primarchs aren't around to influence anyone.

 

I could easily see a Chapter believing for millennia that they are Raven Guard successors, only to find out they actually come from Night Lords stock.

Edited September 14, 2017 by Claws and Effect

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

Whether a Marine becomes a traitor or not has nothing to do with geneseed. No legion is genetically predisposed to become traitor. This is seen by the vast numbers of loyalist resistance in the original traitor legions, and even legions with loyal Primarchs having traitors in their ranks, most notably the Dark Angels. The main driving force for turning traitor was the influence of the warrior lodges and which side their Primarch chose.

 

I think the traitor geneseed was locked more as a punitive measure, sort of like removing all mentions of someone from history books. That's the kind of setting 40K and 30K is. Remember that two full Primarchs were eliminated even before the Heresy, and their legions unaccounted for. The legions who were known as primarily traitor forces definitely would have to be punished somehow, you wouldn't just continue using geneseed from those legions and continuing their legacy if you didn't have to.

 

This is why Cawl felt it was completely fine to use the traitor genestock in Primaris. He even had the scientific integrity to test it for purity first, even though logically he knew the geneseed would have zero relevance on the host's loyalty.

Edited September 14, 2017 by Tyberos the Red Wake

[Arkangilos]

^Which is what I was saying. Although to the Imperium it is an increased risk. Plus, there are legions that are predisposed to fall, such as the Thousand Sons.

 

 

What of the fact that several of the Traitor Primarchs didn't make that choice of their own volition?

Magnus didn't want to turn traitor. He was forced into it when the Space Wolves were manipulated into attacking his homeworld.

Fulgrim was possessed by a daemonic sword. He made a dumb decision to keep it in the first place, but a case can be made that he didn't make the conscious decision to be a traitor.

You can even make a case for Horus himself being manipulated into it.

And it is questionable whether Alpharius and Omegon were traitors at all.

Lorgar, Curze, and Angron definitely decided on their own. Mortarion did as well, but later realized he chose poorly.

Not sure on Perturabo. Pretty sure he turned voluntarily out of jealousy and spite.

If the concern is that they could be turned by a Daemon Primarch due to their compulsion to obey, then using Night Lords and Luna Wolves geneseed should be safe, as their Primarchs aren't around to influence anyone.

I could easily see a Chapter believing for millennia that they are Raven Guard successors, only to find out they actually come from Night Lords stock.

None of this makes any difference. 

 

1) The Imperium does not know, nor do they care that the Thousand Sons wanted to stay loyal. In the end, they were traitors.

 

2) The Imperium does not know, nor do they care that Fulgrim was only possessed. In the end, they were traitors.

 

The list goes on. Why they betrayed the Imperium doesn't matter. Only that they did.

[Arkangilos]

 

 

Don’t claim your chapter was created by a Primarch in secret

The Primarchs commanded legions, why would they create a ‘secret’ chapter instead of adding more men to their legion. More to the point, there was twenty legions in existence; there was no need for a ‘secret’ chapter as there was more than enough manpower around

 

And, here, we see the Primaris issue at hand.  If you don't want loyalists from traitors, then Primaris shouldn't exist either....  Can't pick and choose the rules now can we?

 

 

This literally makes no sense. Primaris don't even apply to the same rule that you just quoted. The Primaris are more stable and stronger, and they are using *loyalist* gene seed. 

 

The process was also started when the Emperor was around and they made up their own weapons (Bolt Guns are not an STC, the Emperor designed them. Same with Power Armor, they were invented and improved upon. Same with several weapons and tech. Heck, space marines themselves). So yeah, I can believe that in a time when technology actually was advancing, a techpriest could have been ordered by the Lord of Terra himself to create an upgraded space marine. 

 

What I cannot agree with, or see, is him authorizing the use of traitor geneseed considering his brothers betrayed him and he wants their stain removed forever. 

[Arkangilos]

Also you never answered the "why" question :p

 

See, for me the whole, "It can make for a good story" thing doesn't cut it, because to be good the story needs to be consistent. So my "why" isn't directed at the out of universe, fourth wall aspect. I get why you think it would be a good idea to have stories about it. My why is an explanation of it. As in, why would the Imperium of Man do it. 

 

Sure, you can make a good story, but you have to explain why the Imperium would go against every facet of it's culture, every aspect of it's law, and why Guilliman would just forget that his brothers betrayed him.

 

The way I see it, there are three times a "why" cut it. The first would have been loyalist survivors that hid their geneseed, so no one knew. The second was the dark founding, and the third was the cursed founding. The cursed founding makes sense because the Imperium was like, "Well we are taking risks this time, let's see what we can do."

 

There is one more "why" answer I can see right now: Cawl being bitter at being told no, and wanting to prove himself right, and so it would be done against the law, and probably in secret. 

 

In any of those cases, the "Why" is answered well enough that I'm down with it. What I'm not down with is the Imperium giving the OK except for twice (dark and cursed foundings).

[Damo1701]

 

 

 

Don’t claim your chapter was created by a Primarch in secret

The Primarchs commanded legions, why would they create a ‘secret’ chapter instead of adding more men to their legion. More to the point, there was twenty legions in existence; there was no need for a ‘secret’ chapter as there was more than enough manpower around

 

And, here, we see the Primaris issue at hand.  If you don't want loyalists from traitors, then Primaris shouldn't exist either....  Can't pick and choose the rules now can we?

 

 

This literally makes no sense. Primaris don't even apply to the same rule that you just quoted. The Primaris are more stable and stronger, and they are using *loyalist* gene seed. 

 

The process was also started when the Emperor was around and they made up their own weapons (Bolt Guns are not an STC, the Emperor designed them. Same with Power Armor, they were invented and improved upon. Same with several weapons and tech. Heck, space marines themselves). So yeah, I can believe that in a time when technology actually was advancing, a techpriest could have been ordered by the Lord of Terra himself to create an upgraded space marine. 

 

What I cannot agree with, or see, is him authorizing the use of traitor geneseed considering his brothers betrayed him and he wants their stain removed forever. 

 

 

Only it has clearly been stated that Cawl was acting on Guilliman's orders.  A Primarch.  Not the Emperor.  A Primarch.  Therefore, why would/should the Primaris have;

1) Been created in the first place on the say so of a Primarch with enough Astartes to found, what, 23 chapters during the second founding?

2) Been kept in the basement of Mars for 10,000 years, just to show up, rather than being in production and use for 10,000 years?

 

You are falling over your own logic there I'm afraid.  Trying to say that one which clearly contradicts the "rules" which are nonbinding anyway, is actually valid, while another one is contradicting the "rules" and being invalid.

 

Also you never answered the "why" question

 

See, for me the whole, "It can make for a good story" thing doesn't cut it, because to be good the story needs to be consistent. So my "why" isn't directed at the out of universe, fourth wall aspect. I get why you think it would be a good idea to have stories about it. My why is an explanation of it. As in, why would the Imperium of Man do it. 

 

Sure, you can make a good story, but you have to explain why the Imperium would go against every facet of it's culture, every aspect of it's law, and why Guilliman would just forget that his brothers betrayed him.

 

The way I see it, there are three times a "why" cut it. The first would have been loyalist survivors that hid their geneseed, so no one knew. The second was the dark founding, and the third was the cursed founding. The cursed founding makes sense because the Imperium was like, "Well we are taking risks this time, let's see what we can do."

 

There is one more "why" answer I can see right now: Cawl being bitter at being told no, and wanting to prove himself right, and so it would be done against the law, and probably in secret. 

 

In any of those cases, the "Why" is answered well enough that I'm down with it. What I'm not down with is the Imperium giving the OK except for twice (dark and cursed foundings).

 

I've already mentioned that Cawl could have used traitor Geneseed against Guilliman's orders.  That, or one of his underlings misread/misinterpreted the collection order.  There are many things that could go "wrong" with collecting stored genetic material, even to the curious aide who doesn't know about the Heresy or Traitor Legions etc.  Don't forget, we, as players, are omnipotent in the 40k galaxy.  In-universe, the Heresy has been hushed up, buried, deleted, and everything else in order to protect the secret.

 

 

Edited September 15, 2017 by Damo1701

[Kinstryfe]

The"why" doesn't always have to be there, though, or even relevant if it is. The world doesn't work that way. Why? Because a tech priest goofed up. When a sentenced thief became servitor Delta-Three-Epsilon, she had an imperfect lobotomy, and as a result still felt occasional twinges of personality or consequence when placed under great stress. One day, when Tech Magos Thrawn ordered D3E to bring him the geneseed sample for implantation, D3E found that the stasis locks on Vault IX weren't calibrated correctly and, fearing a fix would take too much time and fearing Thrawn's displeasure, a spike of fear caused D3E to open the properly calibrated vault VIII instead. This erroneous sample took to the test subject, and over the following months hundreds of geneseed we're replicated in vat grown genehosts, culminating in their eventually use in founding The Angels of Wrath chapter in late m38. In a stroke of luck, Thrawn was particularly pleased that his masterful handling of the geneseed implantation had reduced known defects significantly, with his subjects having all the ferocity but none of the loss of restraint common in Astartes of genestrain IX, with only a minor defect in the melanochrome, a defect known to cause only minor issues in other gene strains. The Angels of Wrath were thus elevated to status as a full Chapter, the High Lords of Terra satisfied that the sons of Sanguinius would once again serve as stalwart defenders of the Imperium. Later in mid M39 the Angels of Wrath, now calling themselves the Midnight's Angels, were declared excommunicus traitoris after a campaign of terror subduing the Marcal system, with an estimated 56 billion rebel citizens slaughtered to a man across the system instead of brought back into the imperial fold.

 

So, 56 billion died because a millennia before a low level tech adept botched the servitor process on a petty thief. There's technically always a why, but sometimes the why isn't really the driving narrative. Sometimes stuff just happens, and you have to roll with it.

[Arkangilos]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Don’t claim your chapter was created by a Primarch in secret

The Primarchs commanded legions, why would they create a ‘secret’ chapter instead of adding more men to their legion. More to the point, there was twenty legions in existence; there was no need for a ‘secret’ chapter as there was more than enough manpower around

And, here, we see the Primaris issue at hand. If you don't want loyalists from traitors, then Primaris shouldn't exist either.... Can't pick and choose the rules now can we?

This literally makes no sense. Primaris don't even apply to the same rule that you just quoted. The Primaris are more stable and stronger, and they are using *loyalist* gene seed.

 

The process was also started when the Emperor was around and they made up their own weapons (Bolt Guns are not an STC, the Emperor designed them. Same with Power Armor, they were invented and improved upon. Same with several weapons and tech. Heck, space marines themselves). So yeah, I can believe that in a time when technology actually was advancing, a techpriest could have been ordered by the Lord of Terra himself to create an upgraded space marine.

 

What I cannot agree with, or see, is him authorizing the use of traitor geneseed considering his brothers betrayed him and he wants their stain removed forever.

Only it has clearly been stated that Cawl was acting on Guilliman's orders. A Primarch. Not the Emperor. A Primarch. Therefore, why would/should the Primaris have;

1) Been created in the first place on the say so of a Primarch with enough Astartes to found, what, 23 chapters during the second founding?

2) Been kept in the basement of Mars for 10,000 years, just to show up, rather than being in production and use for 10,000 years?

 

You are falling over your own logic there I'm afraid. Trying to say that one which clearly contradicts the "rules" which are nonbinding anyway, is actually valid, while another one is contradicting the "rules" and being invalid.

Also you never answered the "why" question

 

See, for me the whole, "It can make for a good story" thing doesn't cut it, because to be good the story needs to be consistent. So my "why" isn't directed at the out of universe, fourth wall aspect. I get why you think it would be a good idea to have stories about it. My why is an explanation of it. As in, why would the Imperium of Man do it.

 

Sure, you can make a good story, but you have to explain why the Imperium would go against every facet of it's culture, every aspect of it's law, and why Guilliman would just forget that his brothers betrayed him.

 

The way I see it, there are three times a "why" cut it. The first would have been loyalist survivors that hid their geneseed, so no one knew. The second was the dark founding, and the third was the cursed founding. The cursed founding makes sense because the Imperium was like, "Well we are taking risks this time, let's see what we can do."

 

There is one more "why" answer I can see right now: Cawl being bitter at being told no, and wanting to prove himself right, and so it would be done against the law, and probably in secret.

 

In any of those cases, the "Why" is answered well enough that I'm down with it. What I'm not down with is the Imperium giving the OK except for twice (dark and cursed foundings).

I've already mentioned that Cawl could have used traitor Geneseed against Guilliman's orders. That, or one of his underlings misread/misinterpreted the collection order. There are many things that could go "wrong" with collecting stored genetic material, even to the curious aide who doesn't know about the Heresy or Traitor Legions etc. Don't forget, we, as players, are omnipotent in the 40k galaxy. In-universe, the Heresy has been hushed up, buried, deleted, and everything else in order to protect the secret.

Except that Guilliman literally was the head of the Imperium. My logic isn't falling, it is canon. It's what GW has said.

 

Also, the 23 second founding has been retconned.

Edited September 15, 2017 by Arkangilos

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

As the Astartes reached the ritual site, one of the sorcerers began to expand rapidly.  Bolt shells and plasma bursts were ineffective against the grossly expanding traitor.  With the sound of two planets colliding, an enormous figure emerged from the cloud of flies and blood where the sorcerer had been, sickly robes flapping in the warp-born currents that replaced natural winds, a scythe larger than two Astartes held in one emaciated and decaying hand while the other circled the summoning site.

 

In an instant the vox-net went wild.  Primaris Astartes bending their knee to the abomination that had forced its way through one of its followers, the rest falling back in confusion.  Confusion born of their brothers' behaviour and the sense of kinship they felt with this heretic, they had always been told they were sons of Ferrus Manus.  Manus was their gene-sire, yet those who fell back reported other brothers attempting to prevent them from leaving.

 

The remaining active officers rallied the last of the astartes and pulled back to orbit.  An investigation was due.  They would need Geneseed of both the Iron Hands and the Death Guard.  Their hertiage must be known, to prevent shame falling on them, to excise the shame of brothers kneeling to a daemon Primarch...  Answers...

 

Sorry, but that's kinda BS. If Primarchs could exert that level of 'Kneel before Zod' level influence over their gene-lines, stuff like Istvaan III and 1st Paramar wouldn't have happened, as the question of Imperial loyalists would be a non-issue. The Traitor Legions followed their Primarchs because they were incredibly charismatic leaders, who commanded more personal loyalty for a lot of their men than the increasingly distant and aloof Emperor, not because of some magic pavlovian response in the gene-seed. New Primaris don't have that history with some plague ridden abomination, hell, they're more likely to have direct inspired loyalty to Gulliman, not a Morty they've never encountered before. Plus they do have (one assumes) levels of training and hypno-indoctrination at least comparable to established Marines, which appears to be rather effective (note, not infallible) at instilling a severe distaste for Traitors and the powers of Chaos in Imperial Marines. Why would Primaris be any different?

 

Then of course, there's the whole way that story would prove canon Gulliman and the Imperium right, that there is something inherently wrong with Traitor gene-lines. As Mars isn't exactly lacking for gene-seed thanks to 10k years of stockpiling, there's no reason (beyond Cawl's 'for Science!') to use suspect gene-lines. That's not grimdark, that's grimderp (keeping the Traitor lines around in the first place, funky stasis time-lock or no, is pretty grimderp imo).

[Damo1701]

 

 

As the Astartes reached the ritual site, one of the sorcerers began to expand rapidly.  Bolt shells and plasma bursts were ineffective against the grossly expanding traitor.  With the sound of two planets colliding, an enormous figure emerged from the cloud of flies and blood where the sorcerer had been, sickly robes flapping in the warp-born currents that replaced natural winds, a scythe larger than two Astartes held in one emaciated and decaying hand while the other circled the summoning site.

 

In an instant the vox-net went wild.  Primaris Astartes bending their knee to the abomination that had forced its way through one of its followers, the rest falling back in confusion.  Confusion born of their brothers' behaviour and the sense of kinship they felt with this heretic, they had always been told they were sons of Ferrus Manus.  Manus was their gene-sire, yet those who fell back reported other brothers attempting to prevent them from leaving.

 

The remaining active officers rallied the last of the astartes and pulled back to orbit.  An investigation was due.  They would need Geneseed of both the Iron Hands and the Death Guard.  Their hertiage must be known, to prevent shame falling on them, to excise the shame of brothers kneeling to a daemon Primarch...  Answers...

 

Sorry, but that's kinda BS. If Primarchs could exert that level of 'Kneel before Zod' level influence over their gene-lines, stuff like Istvaan III and 1st Paramar wouldn't have happened, as the question of Imperial loyalists would be a non-issue. The Traitor Legions followed their Primarchs because they were incredibly charismatic leaders, who commanded more personal loyalty for a lot of their men than the increasingly distant and aloof Emperor, not because of some magic pavlovian response in the gene-seed. New Primaris don't have that history with some plague ridden abomination, hell, they're more likely to have direct inspired loyalty to Gulliman, not a Morty they've never encountered before. Plus they do have (one assumes) levels of training and hypno-indoctrination at least comparable to established Marines, which appears to be rather effective (note, not infallible) at instilling a severe distaste for Traitors and the powers of Chaos in Imperial Marines. Why would Primaris be any different?

 

Then of course, there's the whole way that story would prove canon Gulliman and the Imperium right, that there is something inherently wrong with Traitor gene-lines. As Mars isn't exactly lacking for gene-seed thanks to 10k years of stockpiling, there's no reason (beyond Cawl's 'for Science!') to use suspect gene-lines. That's not grimdark, that's grimderp (keeping the Traitor lines around in the first place, funky stasis time-lock or no, is pretty grimderp imo).

 

 

So, you are saying that the loyalists from teh (now) traitor legions never, ever, felt a pull towards their Primarch, even if they had spent little-to-no time in their presence other than at a huge distance?

 

Didn't Lorgar discover that, at least with the Word Bearers, there were strands in the Geneseed/Primarch Material (I forget which) that reinforced loyalty to eith the Primarch or the Emperor?

 

At the end of the day, if you are genecoded to respect something or someone, but, they fall well short of your personal honour code, can you, and would you discard them?  Not talking about ease here.  As many of the Astartes that found themselves ordered to Istvaan III would never have chosen to go against the Emperor.  But, at the same time, they still feel the pull, almost magnetic, towards their gene-brothers/fathers.  Sure, initially, that would be smothered by the hate, disappointment, and confusing of the original betrayal.  However, those lucky enough to survive the cleansing of the legions have talked about both feeling nothing, and feeling the loss of their kin.

 

As we've pointed out before, there is no real evidence that geneseed determines whether you are a traitor or not, especially if we look at all teh heretic and rogue chapters that turned over the last 10,000 years.  So, hypnodroctrination isn't foolproof.  We know that.  Otherwise the only traitor Astartes would be those from the original Legions.  However, even in the Eye of Terror, there are still Astartes who long for the brotherhood of the Legion.  Whether that's a gene-link or not kind of depends on the person who is writing their story.

 

As for the Primarch Effect*, we know that, to a certain extent, it did exist.  Just, what form it took, and how iit was expressed differed with many factors like time spent with primarchs and whether or not there was a genetic link between Primarch and Astartes.

 

What's more Grimdark than having brothers kneel before an enemy, for no known reason, especially if you have been told something differently for the whole of your life, and were hypnodroctrinated as though that "truth" was absolute?

 

Fractures in Chapters haven't been uncommon where Heresy takes hold.  Perhaps those Astartes had weaker minds, and knelt to a being of incredible power.  Perhaps they were teh scions of Mortarion all along.  The point is, that was a spitball idea, that needs much padding, fleshing, and history to bring it in nicely.

 

After the Dark Angels, or whatever they were called before reaching Caliban, were joined and supported by the rest of the legions as they grew, certain legions began to show specialisations for some aspects of war, well before their Primarchs were rediscovered and rejoined.  Now, having implanted some of these characteristics into teh genetic material, the Emperor would have known about these, and made arrangements for their specialisations to be used.

 

We do have precious little information about the roles of the legions before the Great Crusade/rejoining their Primarchs, that's true.  We also know that, with the Astartes enhancements, all Astartes are as similar, internally, as they are different.  Some legions had organs/glands that did not work.  Others had mutation issues.  Disaster is in the history for at least two legions, that we have been made aware of.  What we also know is that the creation of the Primaris strain of Astartes was supposed to have curbed the most prominent genetic abnormalities and stabilised the geneseed of the legions used.  Didn't it say somewhere that until the awakening of Guilliman, Legion geneseed was used for its comparative purity, rather than chapter geneseed?  

[Sete]

Dudes of Cawl can have thousands of super marines on a fridge in mars, for 10k, I can have a chapter with traitor gene seed. Edited September 15, 2017 by Sete

[Jagus Kumkani]

Also you never answered the "why" question

 

See, for me the whole, "It can make for a good story" thing doesn't cut it, because to be good the story needs to be consistent. So my "why" isn't directed at the out of universe, fourth wall aspect. I get why you think it would be a good idea to have stories about it. My why is an explanation of it. As in, why would the Imperium of Man do it. 

 

Sure, you can make a good story, but you have to explain why the Imperium would go against every facet of it's culture, every aspect of it's law, and why Guilliman would just forget that his brothers betrayed him.

 

The way I see it, there are three times a "why" cut it. The first would have been loyalist survivors that hid their geneseed, so no one knew. The second was the dark founding, and the third was the cursed founding. The cursed founding makes sense because the Imperium was like, "Well we are taking risks this time, let's see what we can do."

 

There is one more "why" answer I can see right now: Cawl being bitter at being told no, and wanting to prove himself right, and so it would be done against the law, and probably in secret. 

 

In any of those cases, the "Why" is answered well enough that I'm down with it. What I'm not down with is the Imperium giving the OK except for twice (dark and cursed foundings).

Well then WHY has the Imperium thrown out logic, reason and science for religion and superstition? They've gone against everything the Imperium and the Emperor originally stood for. It didn't benefit the Imperium to completely change their ideology when it didn't benefit the progress that already had been made.

 

Your why to Cawl is pretty simple. The Mechanicus is notorious for doing their own thing for their own reasons or gain, even if it's against the wishes of the Imperium.

 

It really can be said that this is all possible. Like Damo said, it was just spitballing.

I know Primaris aren't popular with their "big bad SOB" walk onto the scene of 40k.

 

Let's be real here, what direction can the lore really take when these guys come on scene bigger, better, stronger with Guilliman and then all of a sudden win the Long War?

It's on speculation at this point for fans because it's too early to tell what GW intends to do for the story. The former just doesn't sound 40k at all.

[Brother Casman]

Interestingly enough, in the novel Dark Imperium it is said that Belisarius Cawl wants to make Primaris Marines from the non-loyalist Legions, since he believes that "the Imperium is only fighting with half of it's weapons available to it." (paraphrasing). Cawl even wants to bring back the Second and Eleventh Legions.

 

Guilliman flat out refuses, so take that as you will.

 

In any case, GW is seemingly aware of the possibilities here.

[Arkangilos]

There are a lot of reasons the Imperium threw out logic and reason, some of them are actually logical and reasonable. The religion and superstition created a sense of loyalty. It also created a unification factor.

 

Plus, the people actually saw the Emperor do incredible things. They saw him perform miracles, and then they had a book written by his son saying, "only the truly divine deny Divinity." On top of that they were in extreme suffering, and religion helps cope with extreme suffering, especially when the religion centers around a god that suffered for the people (so the teeming masses feel like they belong).

 

But none of that has to do with, "wipe their blood line and legacy from existence" because that's not a religious matter, that is a cultural matter that they followed from the dawn of the Imperium.

 

As someone mentioned there are the two lost legions from the Great Crusade that were 100 percent purged, their geneseed and very names forbidden.

 

There are also the examples I provided, where the Imperial FBI (The Arbites) would execute you, your siblings, and your children and grandchildren for a crime your father committed.

 

--

Heck, we have had real examples in secular, atheist states, of that too, such as the USSR executing the children of the old Tzar.

 

Plus I'm not even saying no, I'm saying you have to have a good reason why they would break the law, break guillimans command despite seeing him as a sort of God, break his orders despite him being the head of the Imperium again (don't forget, he is the lord of the Imperium right now), and break the lore.

Edited September 15, 2017 by Arkangilos

[Jagus Kumkani]

The Mechanicus have always done things their way, Imperium or not. They have always done things out of curiosity or their own will.

He may well have believed what Brother Casman is saying. He has the resources, why not put them to use?

[Arkangilos]

Did you not read any of my arguments? Because I said that he could do it.

 

Also they don't always just do things their way, a least half (the loyal half during the Heresy) of them complied with the Emperor's laws, you know considering they see him as their god, too? And since Guilliman acts with his authority will follow his authority.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

 

So, you are saying that the loyalists from teh (now) traitor legions never, ever, felt a pull towards their Primarch, even if they had spent little-to-no time in their presence other than at a huge distance?

 

 

Define 'pull'. I'll certainly believe a not inconsiderable residual loyalty/denial at the treachery, but that seems to only last until the bolts start flying. Captain Ehrlen and his men didn't falter mid charge and kneel to Angron at Istvaan III. It's hard to believe the 77th Grand Battalion would've just surrendered during Paramar if their own 'thrice-damned Primarch' had turned up. If you're determined to make something like that work, it needs to be a building presence, not a instant flip as outlined and manifest outside of combat. Sudden heel/face turn mid engagement just doesn't fit.

 

 

Didn't Lorgar discover that, at least with the Word Bearers, there were strands in the Geneseed/Primarch Material (I forget which) that reinforced loyalty to eith the Primarch or the Emperor?

I don't recall reading that, but I also haven't read every scrap of HH WB stuff (and some that I did was a fair old time ago). However, I'd also be suspicious of taking Lorgar's opinions or 'discoveries' as gospel, as he's probably amongst the least reliable of the setting's unreliable narrators.

 

 

As we've pointed out before, there is no real evidence that geneseed determines whether you are a traitor or not, especially if we look at all teh heretic and rogue chapters that turned over the last 10,000 years.  So, hypnodroctrination isn't foolproof.  We know that.  Otherwise the only traitor Astartes would be those from the original Legions.  However, even in the Eye of Terror, there are still Astartes who long for the brotherhood of the Legion.  Whether that's a gene-link or not kind of depends on the person who is writing their story.

No, but we do know it's actually pretty good, as only something like 50 Chapters have turned in 10,000 years (plus unspecified smaller contingents). I've never come across the idea that the longing for brotherhood has anything to do with hardwired Primarch loyalty. It's normally a sign of the vestigial humanity left in Astartes. Desire for brotherhood, tribe, companionship, acceptance etc. is a pretty fundamental human instinct.

 

 

What's more Grimdark than having brothers kneel before an enemy, for no known reason, especially if you have been told something differently for the whole of your life, and were hypnodroctrinated as though that "truth" was absolute?

The story of Lugft Huron? A talented and visionary commander, given a mission that far exceeds his resources betrayed by the small minded bean counters of the Imperial bureaucracy and then persecuted when he tried to fulfil his duty. The Abyssal Crusade? Secretly traitor Cardinal cons the Imperium into sending a couple of dozen loyal Chapters into the Eye, where most are inevitably corrupted. The Alpha Legion's takedowns of the Crimson Consuls and Emperor's Swords? Both superbly grim bits of Machiavellian scheming, which actually ape elements of the proposed scenario, but with less 'magic Primarch loyalty switch'. All of these are properly Grimdark falls from grace, far more so because they don't rely on a single 'magic moment'.

 

Your scenario is just a worse version of Order 66.

 

If you wanted to go down the route I think you're going for, traitor gene-seed is an unnecessary complication. There's plenty of scope for compromised/ineffective hypnoindoctrination, or just the regular ways Marines turn. One of the more interesting aspects of Renegade SMs is that it almost seems to be a response to combat fatigue. A lot of Chaos Marines initially turn when they're just pushed too hard for even Astartes to stand. Given the newly founded nature of Primaris Chapters, the potential for relative inexperience, especially among senior command elements, a new Chapter 'breaking' during a slog through the plague mud on one of Morty's planets is potentially justifiable. Adding 'actually made with Traitor gene-seed' to the mix just doesn't add anything to the mix, and 'see Primarch, kneel, even mid battle' actively detracts imo.

[Arkangilos]

 

 

 

 

So, you are saying that the loyalists from teh (now) traitor legions never, ever, felt a pull towards their Primarch, even if they had spent little-to-no time in their presence other than at a huge distance?

 

Define 'pull'. I'll certainly believe a not inconsiderable residual loyalty/denial at the treachery, but that seems to only last until the bolts start flying. Captain Ehrlen and his men didn't falter mid charge and kneel to Angron at Istvaan III. It's hard to believe the 77th Grand Battalion would've just surrendered during Paramar if their own 'thrice-damned Primarch' had turned up. If you're determined to make something like that work, it needs to be a building presence, not a instant flip as outlined and manifest outside of combat. Sudden heel/face turn mid engagement just doesn't fit.

Didn't Lorgar discover that, at least with the Word Bearers, there were strands in the Geneseed/Primarch Material (I forget which) that reinforced loyalty to eith the Primarch or the Emperor?

I don't recall reading that, but I also haven't read every scrap of HH WB stuff (and some that I did was a fair old time ago). However, I'd also be suspicious of taking Lorgar's opinions or 'discoveries' as gospel, as he's probably amongst the least reliable of the setting's unreliable narrators.

As we've pointed out before, there is no real evidence that geneseed determines whether you are a traitor or not, especially if we look at all teh heretic and rogue chapters that turned over the last 10,000 years. So, hypnodroctrination isn't foolproof. We know that. Otherwise the only traitor Astartes would be those from the original Legions. However, even in the Eye of Terror, there are still Astartes who long for the brotherhood of the Legion. Whether that's a gene-link or not kind of depends on the person who is writing their story.

No, but we do know it's actually pretty good, as only something like 50 Chapters have turned in 10,000 years (plus unspecified smaller contingents). I've never come across the idea that the longing for brotherhood has anything to do with hardwired Primarch loyalty. It's normally a sign of the vestigial humanity left in Astartes. Desire for brotherhood, tribe, companionship, acceptance etc. is a pretty fundamental human instinct.

What's more Grimdark than having brothers kneel before an enemy, for no known reason, especially if you have been told something differently for the whole of your life, and were hypnodroctrinated as though that "truth" was absolute?

The story of Lugft Huron? A talented and visionary commander, given a mission that far exceeds his resources betrayed by the small minded bean counters of the Imperial bureaucracy and then persecuted when he tried to fulfil his duty. The Abyssal Crusade? Secretly traitor Cardinal cons the Imperium into sending a couple of dozen loyal Chapters into the Eye, where most are inevitably corrupted. The Alpha Legion's takedowns of the Crimson Consuls and Emperor's Swords? Both superbly grim bits of Machiavellian scheming, which actually ape elements of the proposed scenario, but with less 'magic Primarch loyalty switch'. All of these are properly Grimdark falls from grace, far more so because they don't rely on a single 'magic moment'.

 

Your scenario is just a worse version of Order 66.

 

If you wanted to go down the route I think you're going for, traitor gene-seed is an unnecessary complication. There's plenty of scope for compromised/ineffective hypnoindoctrination, or just the regular ways Marines turn. One of the more interesting aspects of Renegade SMs is that it almost seems to be a response to combat fatigue. A lot of Chaos Marines initially turn when they're just pushed too hard for even Astartes to stand. Given the newly founded nature of Primaris Chapters, the potential for relative inexperience, especially among senior command elements, a new Chapter 'breaking' during a slog through the plague mud on one of Morty's planets is potentially justifiable. Adding 'actually made with Traitor gene-seed' to the mix just doesn't add anything to the mix, and 'see Primarch, kneel, even mid battle' actively detracts imo.

Exactly this.

[Damo1701]

Again, I will point out that the small passage I wrote was spitballing.  Jotting down the roughest of rough ideas, the very basic outline.

 

How could it have been rounded off slightly?  Waking dreams of Mortarion as he was before the Heresy, showing the brotherhood of the 7 Grand Companies, sourceless whispers during meditation/intense combat that plucks at the psyche, twisting Imperial indoctrination, slowly warping the view of Mortarion and the Death Guard to their current forms in the favours of the Lord of Decay.  Visions showing the resiliance the current Death Guard forms have over their already mighty frames.

 

The possibilities are almost endless, and they open up Primaris use for renegades.

 

Sure, the Astral Claws had it bad.  As have other chapters in the 10,000-year history of the current Imperium.  Some turned, others didn't.  The point about using heretic legion geneseed is to explore creativity.  Are they aware of their origins?  Have they ever met ANY Primarch either before or after basement storage?  Are they as loyal as can be, or are there heretics in their ranks?  If so, WHY are there heretics in their ranks?

 

You can't take my napkin scribbles as exactly how I would portray a Chapter with the "wrong" genetic history, it is the roughest draft of an idle thought.  A foundation to build a story of heroism and villainy on.  Of course, I'm nowhere near capable of approaching ADB, Dan Abnett, or any of the other BL authors.  Unless you are extremely lucky, I doubt you have the same talent as them too.  It's not a dig, just trying to point something out.

 

I'm just trying to offer rough ideas that can be explored, exchange ideas with those who choose to participate in the thread.  Sure, published and award-winning authors are able to write better than I can.  They may even have similar thoughts running through their minds at random times.  Does that make my contribution to a new faction, with the barest hints of a history any less valid, even considering it's breaking one of the rules that you linked me to, when, without breaking the rule I quoted, this discussion would probably never

Edited September 15, 2017 by Damo1701

[Jagus Kumkani]

 

 

 

 

So, you are saying that the loyalists from teh (now) traitor legions never, ever, felt a pull towards their Primarch, even if they had spent little-to-no time in their presence other than at a huge distance?

Define 'pull'. I'll certainly believe a not inconsiderable residual loyalty/denial at the treachery, but that seems to only last until the bolts start flying. Captain Ehrlen and his men didn't falter mid charge and kneel to Angron at Istvaan III. It's hard to believe the 77th Grand Battalion would've just surrendered during Paramar if their own 'thrice-damned Primarch' had turned up. If you're determined to make something like that work, it needs to be a building presence, not a instant flip as outlined and manifest outside of combat. Sudden heel/face turn mid engagement just doesn't fit.

Didn't Lorgar discover that, at least with the Word Bearers, there were strands in the Geneseed/Primarch Material (I forget which) that reinforced loyalty to eith the Primarch or the Emperor?

I don't recall reading that, but I also haven't read every scrap of HH WB stuff (and some that I did was a fair old time ago). However, I'd also be suspicious of taking Lorgar's opinions or 'discoveries' as gospel, as he's probably amongst the least reliable of the setting's unreliable narrators.

As we've pointed out before, there is no real evidence that geneseed determines whether you are a traitor or not, especially if we look at all teh heretic and rogue chapters that turned over the last 10,000 years. So, hypnodroctrination isn't foolproof. We know that. Otherwise the only traitor Astartes would be those from the original Legions. However, even in the Eye of Terror, there are still Astartes who long for the brotherhood of the Legion. Whether that's a gene-link or not kind of depends on the person who is writing their story.

No, but we do know it's actually pretty good, as only something like 50 Chapters have turned in 10,000 years (plus unspecified smaller contingents). I've never come across the idea that the longing for brotherhood has anything to do with hardwired Primarch loyalty. It's normally a sign of the vestigial humanity left in Astartes. Desire for brotherhood, tribe, companionship, acceptance etc. is a pretty fundamental human instinct.

What's more Grimdark than having brothers kneel before an enemy, for no known reason, especially if you have been told something differently for the whole of your life, and were hypnodroctrinated as though that "truth" was absolute?

The story of Lugft Huron? A talented and visionary commander, given a mission that far exceeds his resources betrayed by the small minded bean counters of the Imperial bureaucracy and then persecuted when he tried to fulfil his duty. The Abyssal Crusade? Secretly traitor Cardinal cons the Imperium into sending a couple of dozen loyal Chapters into the Eye, where most are inevitably corrupted. The Alpha Legion's takedowns of the Crimson Consuls and Emperor's Swords? Both superbly grim bits of Machiavellian scheming, which actually ape elements of the proposed scenario, but with less 'magic Primarch loyalty switch'. All of these are properly Grimdark falls from grace, far more so because they don't rely on a single 'magic moment'.

 

Your scenario is just a worse version of Order 66.

 

If you wanted to go down the route I think you're going for, traitor gene-seed is an unnecessary complication. There's plenty of scope for compromised/ineffective hypnoindoctrination, or just the regular ways Marines turn. One of the more interesting aspects of Renegade SMs is that it almost seems to be a response to combat fatigue. A lot of Chaos Marines initially turn when they're just pushed too hard for even Astartes to stand. Given the newly founded nature of Primaris Chapters, the potential for relative inexperience, especially among senior command elements, a new Chapter 'breaking' during a slog through the plague mud on one of Morty's planets is potentially justifiable. Adding 'actually made with Traitor gene-seed' to the mix just doesn't add anything to the mix, and 'see Primarch, kneel, even mid battle' actively detracts imo.

Exactly this.

 

I've read everything you've said. You're trying to justify your argument that the story should stay the way it is because you like that way it is. It makes sense to you in is plausibility.

All we've been saying this entire time is, what kind of narrative could be formed with Primarchs, Primaris and Traitor Legion geen-seed. Not that it should be changed indefinitely.

 

Apply some parallel thinking to this subject and maybe you'll see what we're saying. Its all fun yo, chill.