Loyalists and Traitors, Traitors are Loyal?

[rendingon1+]

 

What's more Grimdark than having brothers kneel before an enemy, for no known reason, especially if you have been told something differently for the whole of your life, and were hypnodroctrinated as though that "truth" was absolute?

http://i.imgur.com/z9M7TXv.jpg

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

I've read everything you've said. You're trying to justify your argument that the story should stay the way it is because you like that way it is. It makes sense to you in is plausibility.

All we've been saying this entire time is, what kind of narrative could be formed with Primarchs, Primaris and Traitor Legion geen-seed. Not that it should be changed indefinitely.

 

Apply some parallel thinking to this subject and maybe you'll see what we're saying. Its all fun yo, chill.

 

Which argument? I thought I was responding to 2, Damo's specific example (primarily) and the overarching 'using traitor gene-seed for new foundings' issue (Ultima or otherwise, the arguments are pretty much the same).

 

For the specific example 'the proposed story isn't in keeping with established elements of the fluff' (Primarchs have never been portrayed having that level of mind-control like influence over their gene-sons) seems like an entirely appropriate criticism of a proposed idea.

 

Regarding the second. True, I don't like the 'Loyalist Chapter made from Traitor gene-seed' trope. However, the entire premise just has too many 'how/why' type questions for it to gel properly with the established nature of the setting. Who ordered the creation? Why did they order the creation (especially given the stigma associated with those gene-lines)? How did they get the gene-seed (as the traitor lines appear to be super +3 ultra classified sealed)? How does the Chapter pass the required gene-seed tithes and purity monitoring without being rumbled? (Unique to Ultima) How did it happen with Gulliman expressly forbidding it, and no indication that Cawl has, at this point, disobeyed (or if he has, they're still on ice)?

 

I actually don't like the story the way it is. But that doesn't mean breaking with whta fluff there is is automatically good, either.

 

 

Sure, the Astral Claws had it bad.  As have other chapters in the 10,000-year history of the current Imperium.  Some turned, others didn't.  The point about using heretic legion geneseed is to explore creativity.  Are they aware of their origins?  Have they ever met ANY Primarch either before or after basement storage?  Are they as loyal as can be, or are there heretics in their ranks?  If so, WHY are there heretics in their ranks?

And therein lies the problem. I just don't see how 'secretly made with traitor gene-seed' adds much to those questions. There's plenty of Chapters with uncertain origins, any Chapter could have heretics in their ranks, and why is the inevitable follow up. Meeting Primarchs shouldn't matter, as the only one they'll have spent any time with that compares to the GC-era traitors is Gulliman. The level of genetic determinism implicit in the Primarch-Marine relationship you seem to be looking for is just not in the extant fluff.

 

Even if you ended up with a Traitor gene-seed Chapter, and they realised their origins, a more severe drive for Redemption/Penance and a doubling down on righteous fury towards all traitors and deviants is the more likely outcome rather than turning their coats. Because they'd still be Imperial Space Marines by nurture, even if their nature is supposedly 'tainted'. It's more likely to be like Captain Ehrlen, Endryd Haar or Kyr Vhalen than Khârn, Horus Aximand or Argel Tal.

Edited September 15, 2017 by Leif Bearclaw

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

I don't get why you don't just have Magnus appear and say "Kneel." and then every Marine is forced to the ground by rock-crushing gravity.

 

Like others have said, traitor geneseed already exists, in several different confirmed chapters, and most of it is just them trying to hide it or dodge geneseed checks. One of the founding Grey Knights is a Death Guard, whose geneseed would have surely been passed down. There's one chapter that's some weird hybrid of Ultramarine and Dark Angels. Minotaurs are called chimeric and the guy who "owns" them at FW allegedly said on a private Facebook chat that they're actually Iron Warriors.

 

A better way for this angle to work would be if one of the missing loyalist Primarchs comes back, but as a traitor, or if Sanguinius were resurrected by Chaos, and BA successors' allegiances were affected by his psychic echo and the Black Rage. Going for the "loyalist traitor geneseed" angle is already pretty blase but the "daemon Primarch mind controls loyalist traitors" just makes it even worse and embodies everything that's wrong with the "loyal traitor" memes.

[Kinstryfe]

A couple things I figure are relevant to the path the conversation has gone. As far as magic Primarch loyalty, while most Marines were intuitively loyal to their primary, Lorgar was the only one hinted at the obedience being more then just conditioning to obey their loyalty. I believe the Terran Raven Guard also had big issues with Corax, so there's an example of direct insubordination as well. That said, it's been mentioned a few places that Primarchs definitely resonate in their Astartes in a unique way. We also know that geneseed can have a psychoactive effect on the Astartes, shown best by Sanguinius and the effects he had on his geneseed. So I think these are best looked at as rare, extenuating circumstances that could be valid story hooks in the right hands, which the setting currently hints at being possible, even if highly unlikely. Would I think a chapter with secret Word Bearers geneseed would fall traitor wholesale if confronted by Lorgar? No, not at all. Would I think it wrong to show that some of the imperials are having to concentrate harder, or facing an internal struggle, or the odd Astartes momentarily losing control? In the case of Lorgar, no.

 

There's also the repeated trends of geneseed affecting combat doctrine. Pretty much all of the sons of Sanguinius end up adopting similar doctrine. We've yet to really see a seriously assault focused chapter with the footnote "are of verified Ultramarines geneseed", instead they're linked to more aggressive chapters. There's certainly enough evidence to make the argument that geneseed works in large part thru both nature and nurture, probably due to the warp craft involved in the creation of the Primarchs. And that's not a bad thing, in all cases. The heroes of the traitor legions are more heroic specifically because they fought against their nature to obey their Primarch. It's something that needs to be handled carefully, for sure, but treated with the right reverence it can enhance the conflicts, rather than limit their options.

[Arkangilos]

A couple things I figure are relevant to the path the conversation has gone. As far as magic Primarch loyalty, while most Marines were intuitively loyal to their primary, Lorgar was the only one hinted at the obedience being more then just conditioning to obey their loyalty. I believe the Terran Raven Guard also had big issues with Corax, so there's an example of direct insubordination as well. That said, it's been mentioned a few places that Primarchs definitely resonate in their Astartes in a unique way. We also know that geneseed can have a psychoactive effect on the Astartes, shown best by Sanguinius and the effects he had on his geneseed. So I think these are best looked at as rare, extenuating circumstances that could be valid story hooks in the right hands, which the setting currently hints at being possible, even if highly unlikely. Would I think a chapter with secret Word Bearers geneseed would fall traitor wholesale if confronted by Lorgar? No, not at all. Would I think it wrong to show that some of the imperials are having to concentrate harder, or facing an internal struggle, or the odd Astartes momentarily losing control? In the case of Lorgar, no.

 

There's also the repeated trends of geneseed affecting combat doctrine. Pretty much all of the sons of Sanguinius end up adopting similar doctrine. We've yet to really see a seriously assault focused chapter with the footnote "are of verified Ultramarines geneseed", instead they're linked to more aggressive chapters. There's certainly enough evidence to make the argument that geneseed works in large part thru both nature and nurture, probably due to the warp craft involved in the creation of the Primarchs. And that's not a bad thing, in all cases. The heroes of the traitor legions are more heroic specifically because they fought against their nature to obey their Primarch. It's something that needs to be handled carefully, for sure, but treated with the right reverence it can enhance the conflicts, rather than limit their options.

The reason that the BA successors all tend to follow a more aggressive close assault doctrine is because of the Red Thirst specifically. But they are an exception. 

I don't get why you don't just have Magnus appear and say "Kneel." and then every Marine is forced to the ground by rock-crushing gravity.

 

Like others have said, traitor geneseed already exists, in several different confirmed chapters, and most of it is just them trying to hide it or dodge geneseed checks. One of the founding Grey Knights is a Death Guard, whose geneseed would have surely been passed down. There's one chapter that's some weird hybrid of Ultramarine and Dark Angels. Minotaurs are called chimeric and the guy who "owns" them at FW allegedly said on a private Facebook chat that they're actually Iron Warriors.

 

A better way for this angle to work would be if one of the missing loyalist Primarchs comes back, but as a traitor, or if Sanguinius were resurrected by Chaos, and BA successors' allegiances were affected by his psychic echo and the Black Rage. Going for the "loyalist traitor geneseed" angle is already pretty blase but the "daemon Primarch mind controls loyalist traitors" just makes it even worse and embodies everything that's wrong with the "loyal traitor" memes.

The originals were, yes, but now the Grey Knights use the Emperor's geneseed, not any particular legion's. 

 

What confirmed loyalist chapters use traitor geneseed? "Allegedly said in a private chat" isn't evidence that it's been confirmed.

Edited September 16, 2017 by Arkangilos

[Claws and Effect]

The issue with the Terran Raven Guard is that they were more loyal to Horus than to their own Primarch.

 

They were directly under Horus' command for centuries and Corax came along and said "Nope. Stop that. We're doing things my way now."

[Damo1701]

This Is only a draft that I completed before heading to bed. With any luck, the concepts are acceptable now?

 

Hidden Content

 

(Please note: Dates can be changed to fit existing narrative. These are just example pieces in an attempt to provide a better example.)

 

The Chem Angels.

 

The records of the Chem Angels are sparse when it comes to their creation. The year listed for their founding has two parts, a creation date and an activation date. CD 541M32 AD 015M42.

 

Where their genetic lineage should be proudly shown is a flashing warning, one that even the wisest of the young chapter cannot decipher.

 

Denied Authority BCAM5410154322IVX +

 

As their skin tended towards the paper spectrum of human pigments, it was generally assumed they were descended from Corax and the Raven Guard. Though darker than the sons of Corax, the tie was, in the eyes of their overseers, perfectly reasonable.

 

Since the Chem Angels were taken out of stasis and reissued with their wargear and carrier fleet, they engaged the enemies of Mankind while enroute to their designated system between the Maelstrom and Ultramar. A small mining world that was abandoned when it's ores ran dry. A subterranean fortress would be built to protect the surrounding systems.

 

Ten years after activation, the Chem Angels made two discoveries. The first was that their name reflected interesting traits with their biology, and being able to fight in conditions that Astartes of older chapters either could not, or would not enter, and that their battle brothers had visions during meditation. The visions began as simply shadowy figures of great stature. In the beginning, the Librarians and Chaplains explained this as an afterimage of those who created them being seen while they were in stasis.

 

The Chem Angels acquitted themselves with honour during every engagement, if not tactical finesse. Their favoured tactics relied on assaulting worlds with the biggest craft they could access and, when boarding enemy vessels, entering through areas of lethal toxic gases and using those gases to subdue their foes. There has yet to be an environment their physiology cannot handle.

 

Rituals and honours are rare in the Chem Angels. No brother seeking accolades over or above the ability to fulfil their duty and battle the enemies of the Imperium. The few notable honours available to officers or Battle brother are an Olive Green Aquilla painted onto a grave or vambrace for actions above and beyond their duty in any given theatre, promotion towards the next rank if there are openings, or, the opportunity to test their enhanced bodies against a particularly poisonous fungus that grows in the bowels of their fortress - the effects of said fungus on unwary chapter serfs have included violent hallucinations, fevers, then the internal organs dissolving into a slurry causing death - this is the rarest of honours, for the officer presenting the fungus will have harvested it themselves. There has yet to be an Astartes death associated with this ritual.

 

During the Plague Wars in Ultramar, the Chem Angels were deployed in Chapter Strength to assist the Primarch Guilliman and his Ultramarines, alongside the other chapters. Upon entering Ultramar, the meditation visions changed. Astartes began to hear voices. As they neared any system with a heavy Death Guard presence, words became distinguishable, and unrest grew in the darker corners of the relief fleet. The Librarians could pinpoint no psychic source for the visions or the voices, the Chaplains offered reassurance or punishment duties as fitted the situation.

 

After each engagement with the Death Guard, the Astares began reporting clear words, phrases, or sharper images than before. Flashing bronze or steel skulls surrounded by a spiked halo, a large figure breathing from a respirator-styled device in clear atmospheres, and armour that could have matched their own, or appeared even older. Phrases that raised suspicions amongst the commanders of the chapter were fed to them by the Chaplains. “Death is the beginning.” “The sons have woken.” “The father is returning.”

 

Initial reactions varied by Captains before they, themselves, began experiencing the visions. Some reduced meditation time and insisted of full sleep rather than the Astartes half-sleep. Some trained ever harder, while others spent more times assembled in front of their company Chaplain. Again, every Astartes that reported the vizions or voices were checked by the Apothecarion and Librarius, with no source found for the visions.

 

During a system-wide battle against the Death Guard, in which the primary objective was to prevent a cabal of sorcerers from completing a ritual, the awful truth behind the visions made itself known.

 

There companies of Chem Angels were committed to assault the primary target, purge the sorcerers, and destroy any trace of the ritual. The Chem Angels pushed through the bloated, decayed mirrors of their perfection, slaying daemon, pox-walker and heretic Astartes as they advanced. Inceptors fell from the sky, weapons pouring fire on the heretics, blasting chunks of flesh/armour from the bloated followers of Nurgle. Intercessors advanced while being covered by Redemptors and Repulsors. Reivers struck flanks, dropped in from screaming Thunder Hawks or ran ahead of the advancing companies to clear any ambushes they may face. Hellblasters pulsed plasma into the Plague hordes, occasionally losing Astartes to venting weaponry. Aggressors were always found where the fighting was thickest, supporting the officers leading the fight.

 

The direct approach, although high in cost for the Chem Angels, meant their assault was hard, fast, and brutal. They reached the canal of sorcerers and began cutting them down, the Librarians attempting to unweave the patterns of warp energy they could feel. As the last sorcerer was killed, with a plasma bolt to the head, the daemons let out a moan and fell to the ground, their bodies melting away.

 

One Librarian picked at a stand of energy with his mind, and a vast vortex appeared, the darling enteric energies felling every warrior stood near the ritual site, the Librarians, his armour bulging as his face decayed as though he had been dead for months rather than living second previously, rose into the air. Enormous wings sprouted from the back of his armour, his psychic hood shattering, sending ceramite and psionic crystal shards in all directions around him, his Force Sword grew to the height if a Primaris marine and curved over, stretching itself until it resembled an ancient device that might have uses in farming. A Scythe. With a flash of blinding light, and snakes of dark energy, the figure that emerged from the remains of the Librarian hovered above the ground. A whisper turned into a roar turned into a whisper echoed over the ritual site.

 

“Join me my sons,” the awful figure announced. “I can smell the seed of Barbarus upon you all!” With the final pronouncement, the figure swept this scythe in an arc capable of cutting a Redemptor through the waste. “Join your father, Mortarion!”

 

As the final syllable of his name echoed around the site, Astartes began hacking, clawing at helms, convulsing on the ground. Those not affected were torn between aiding their incapacitated brethren or firing upon the daemon-primarch before them. Surviving officers rallied those they could, evacuation arranged while covering fire was laid down. Shock ripped through the withdrawing Astartes as their fallen brethren began to rise again, bloated, decaying, covered in pustules. A supporting Redemptor appeared to take a hit from some sort of weapon as it's outer layer of armour shattered, sending shrapnel in all directions. As those who avoided the shrapnel returned their attention to the hwri in the Dreadnought, their confusion turned to horror as they saw the remains if the heroic marine bloat ever larger. Remaining skin splitting, the flesh absorbing the metals that made its body, and the feet take on a fleshy appearance, infected nails included.

 

Performing a fighting retreat, the survivors wondered, were they going to become corrupted like they brethren? If they were sons of Corax, how did the warp spawned primarch claim those Astartes as his own?

 

With around half the Astartes falling to that abomination, the Chaplains would be busy.

 

[Aramis K]

I find the idea of loyalists with traitor geneseed really interesting. We know Cawl has been considering it.

 

My thinking is it was the Primarchs who fell and took their legions with them. So traitor geneseed and pre-primarch legions are worth exploring in 42k.

 

So I've been painting some. Bastards in ancient colours. Lots more in my log.

http://i.imgur.com/WvIQqUX.jpg

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/336181-unnumbered-sons-bastard-geneseed-reivers-in-ancient-colors/page-2

[Ishagu]

This is an interesting topic.

I don't think Guilliman would personally allow it, but it would be interesting if he lead a small force of traitor genestock Primaris and personally vetted them.

 

On the other hand, if he's in direct command and they are learning from him they'll adopt his methods of War as opposed to what made them unique in the first place.

 

I think there are too many in the Imperium, the Inquisition included that would have a major problem with this.

[slitth]

Some of the fallen legions could be recreated as loyal to the Imperium.

Most of them turned because of the culture from the "home worlds"

 

The Word Bearers what prone to be followers of faith. They have a strong conviction in the believe.

It was the culture of god worship that lead them astray, but they could also be fanatics of the Imperial truth.

A legion guided by a faith of what is known and not by a faith that attempts to give an answer to questions that have none.

But like the Luna Wolves and the Alpha Legion they are loyal to the focus.

For the World Bearers the focus is faith, the Luna Wolves focus it leadership and the Alpha Legion is ideal.

As long as they focus remains in line with imperial focus, then they will remain loyal.

 

The Night Lords are shown to have a sense of justice, it just a question making follow imperial justice.

The problem is that there is not real imperial justice. Just imperial tyranny.

 

The Iron Warriors are loyal as long as the Imperium accepts that even space marines have limits.

But the imperium as it is right now grinds everything down.

 

The Emperor's Children and the Thousand Sons needs to learn the meaning of limitations.

Something the White Scars could teach them.

 

The World Eaters was about brotherhood. But if they learn the same lesson as Angron, then they will rebel.

Because Angron core was a fight for freedom and a total rage against tyranny.

Something you can only learn of being at rock bottom of the universe.

[Galron]

I am waiting for the Primaris to be placed in every level of most chapters and their own chapters, to be loyally helping drive back the forces of chaos and for Omegon or Alpharius (whatever name tag they put on that day) who is also Cawl and the real source of all primaris geneseed to simply send out the "Order 66" code. Time to pull out the popcorn and watch the galaxy burn....again.

 

I personally am a big fan of  Traitor legion forces who were rewarded for staying Imperial while their Primarchs went rogue. I wish there was more data about loyalist legion factions who followed Horus and what happened to them after.

 

I am sure its been said already in this thread, Minotaurs are apparently IW? Was this in a book or just the guy who owns the army? Intentions and chapter fluff are fine and dandy, I personally think that Red Scorpions are the missing 2nd Legion thanks to some very vague references and some easter eggs on the FW site but even I will admit it isn't canon lore. Silver Skulls I think are another loyalist band of Iron Warriors and were too lazy to even change their heraldry and colors. If I have the name right Hawk Lords are rocking Emperor's Children colors. Seems odd to me that loyalist chapters would be so brazen to take traitor colors and call them their own just because. There would have to be some kind of underlying honor or pride from wearing them and not wanting to change. I can see the Silver Skulls coming from Kyr's 77th Batt being as pissed off as he was about the heresy simply keeping the colors and claiming they were the only ones with the right to wear them.

[Arkangilos]

It has not been confirmed what geneseed they use, as in lore it's been locked away. A guys private conversation that we can't read isn't enough to stand as proof.

 

Plus even if it was, it was during the cursed founding which doesn't count because all kinds of unorthodox things were done.

[Leif Bearclaw]

Silver Skulls I think are another loyalist band of Iron Warriors and were too lazy to even change their heraldry and colors. If I have the name right Hawk Lords are rocking Emperor's Children colors. Seems odd to me that loyalist chapters would be so brazen to take traitor colors and call them their own just because. There would have to be some kind of underlying honor or pride from wearing them and not wanting to change.

 

Why is it odd? Most of them are fairly simple colour combinations. Are every silver/gunmetal coloured Chapter taking the IW colours? EC in particular are nothing unusual, single colour with metallic accent? I'd be surprised if there wasn't a purple and gold Chapter knocking around the Imperium somewhere. I'd say the weirder thing for the Hawk Lords is them using a recoloured RG symbol for their Chapter, but recent fluff has them as Ultra successors. But then, the Red Wolves exist, and they're probably not SW successors...

 

As for the Skulls, it appears that recent fluff (according to lexicanum) has Gulliman directly acknowledging the Skulls as Ultra successors. 

 

[Kinstryfe]

The Silver Skulls are, iirc, one of the very few chapters explicitly hinted in the fluff as being descended from a traitor Primarch. The other (probably more likely) explanation is that they are Ultramarines descended, but took their heraldry explicitly to honour Warsmith Dantioch, an acknowledged hero of the Heresy. It could be a similar scenario to the Sons of Orar (sp?) who hold up a hero of the crusade or heresy as their spiritual leige. In either case, matching heraldry is likely to be not more than a little wink wink moment, or pure coincidence. There are only so many colors and geometric shapes that work well on the battlefield, and some unintentional overlap is sure to happen at some point. I still have it in my headcanon that there was probably a lot more variety than has been shown in the Legions' heraldry. If the 2 high schools that used to be in my childhood town couldn't agree on a mascot and colors, I find it hard to believe that no chapter master or company commander ever used heraldry to simplify the identification process. 250,000 Ultramarines, even in 25± chapters of 10,000 still leads a lot of room open for confusion on the battlefield, and I've never seen a legionary painted up with markings showing they were Ultramarines Legion, 7th Chapter, 75th Company. I'd wager a lot of the 2nd founding chapter heraldry was already in practical use by the time the Heresy rolled around. :headcanon off:

[Galron]

I think any chapter that is originally traitor-loyalist based is not going to go right out and say, "Hey our Primarch is Perturabo!" That's a quick way to have a crusade sent against you by the various Fisters. More likely in my opinion, they fought with the Ultramarines or simply fought heroically vs the traitors and the UM under Girlyman "accepted" them as "Hey, they have been my guys all along, they were the 77th chapter stationed in BFE." UM being one of the larger chapters and not taking near as much damage makes far more sense to be the pretend parent chapter. No one is going to notice an extra chapter of 1000 marines here and there when whole chapters get lost in the warp or eaten by bugs all the time. Much better use of resources than having yet more internecine warfare based off a 10k year old grudge as long as they aren't off doing what their real parent legion is doing.

[Arkangilos]

Where did you get the idea that they are Iron Warrior descendants? It's never been mentioned.

[Galron]

I have read it briefly before, but as many loyalist IW units as there were, why should it be a surprise. I can think of two large groups off hand, Kyr's 77th and the other army group that helped the Ultramarines. They kept the exact same scheme and emblem. Its hard not to think that they aren't. With the Pride of Kyr and anger he held towards the traitors I could very easily see him making the new chapter keep their old colors and saying that they are the true IW at the time. Again common sense would dictate they hide their origins under the Ultramarine umbrella just to survive afterwards. As with any of this, its all speculation until GW or FW officially says it isn't and the odds of that seem kind of thin.

[Spiky Norman]

Where did you get the idea that they are Iron Warrior descendants? It's never been mentioned.

It's mentioned in several threads here on B&C at least, but in the canon fluff the Silver Skulls are mentioned as having unknown founding chapter but later tests suggests Ultramarines.

If you couple this with the story of Barabas Dantioch, I think it makes for a plausible and pretty interesting theory, that the Silver Skulls are actually decedent loyalist Iron Warriors, that was "taken in" by Roboute and designated the Silver Skulls chapter in honour of Dantioch, taking his mask as their icon and keeping their armour/paint scheme the same to harken back to their roots. Roboute insisting that the Silver Skulls being Ultramarines successors backed by the "tests" from his apothecaries, shields the loyalist Iron Warriors from the oncoming crusade against the traitors in that way.

 

I subscribe to this theory because it's a lot more interesting than simply being another Ultramarines successor and it was actually part of the reason why I chose to start up a Silver Skulls army with the release of Dark Imperium.

[Damo1701]

Sorry, headcanon has been firing.

 

With 40k, I can totally see how previously loyal Astartes, using any Geneseed, let alone that of a traitor legion, could be struck and forced/compelled to kneel before a traitor primarch.

 

They are all Daemons now, AFAIK. That could mean their charismatic powers could be enhanced to the point where it can overwhelm almost anybody.

 

Now, sure, the only issue with that, is the Grey Knights. However, my explanation for that is fairly simple. They are the most special snowflakes around, being, perhaps, the only chapter where a member hasn't turned traitor at all. Facing daemons, Astartes, and primarchs, all the while maintaining their purity.

 

Headcanon feels rather fun when you explore the entirety of possibilities available to us.

 

Now, Cawl strikes me as rather arrogant, feeling he knows what is needed by the Imperium far better than anybody else, having been around for 10k years, at least

[Leif Bearclaw]

Now, Cawl strikes me as rather arrogant, feeling he knows what is needed by the Imperium far better than anybody else, having been around for 10k years, at least .

 

Now, with that in mind, some small ideas have popped into my head regarding obvious, but subtle ways Cawl could indicate sources of Geneseed.

 

III - Imperial Sons.

IV - Iron Lords.

VIII - Lords of the Night

XII - Warhounds.

XIV - Dusk Raiders

XV - Thousand Suns

XVI - Wolves of the Moon

XVII - Imperial Truth

XX - Gamma Warriors

 

Now, Guilliman, if the names and colour schemes of these chapters are included in any reports he receives, may remember that they were the pre-primarch names of turned legions. Though, if they are falsely listed as of being loyalist stock, then name/scheme recycling, however accidental, could be given a pass.

 

I guess, one thing to remember is that we are on the outside looking in, discussing concepts that would never be a part of general thought for those we are discussing.

 

Not going to touch the 'magic mind control Traitor Primarch' can of worms again in any detail, other than to say you still seem to be trying to add abilities to the Primarchs they've never demonstrated to fit the events you want to play out. That's not the way to do headcannon/DIYs imo.

 

As for the names. The Iron Lords already exist, as an IH successor.

 

Warhounds and Dusk Raiders are just too on the nose, just being the relevant Legion's former nomenclature (as is just changing Sons to Suns for the XV). There's nothing subtle about that, and would be a dead giveaway to exactly the type of scholar/Gulliman Cawl would be hoping to fool. Similar issues occur with Lords of the Night, plus being a bit meandering and woolly for a Chapter name (on the other hand, Legion of Night is apparently already a loyalist Chapter as of 5th edition ).

 

If you want a more sublte naming convention, maybe try some of the Legion's unofficial nicknames? As knowledge of those is less likely to have survived to present 40k (and they sound better ). So you could use, say Corpse Grinders for the IV, Iconoclasts for the XVII or The Azure Serpents for the XX.

 

Or you dig a bit deeper and make it more obscure. Take the XVI. Wolves of the Moon is both kinda obvious and a bit meandering for a Chapter name. However, Horus was often depicted as a Falcon in Egyptian myth. So what about Moon/Luna Falcons?

 

A few more alternate ideas for you that are a bit less on the nose and/or flow better as Chapter titles imo. I've also tried to keep them consistent with extant Marine Chpater titles. The idea being there's a hint to one of the Traitor Legions, but the name owuldn't look out of place amongst the lists of known Imperial Chapters.

 

Heralds of Wrath (XVII)

Golden Seraphs (III)

Hounds Defiant (XII)

Night Guard (could work for either the VIII or XIV)

[Damo1701]

Those are cool names.

 

Part of me didn't realise some of the crossover... but, it dies mention that a bureaucratic error led to two identical chapters being founded millennia apart, and it only coming to light through discovered casualties. I think it's in the current Codex. Might be wrong though.

 

If I'm honest, this is very much (for me) a slow/back burner idea. However, it was an interesting enough topic IMHO, for a thread in any case