STCs and the Emperor

[Bjorn Firewalker]

 

 

The second is Orikan the Diviner

 

Who is this guy?

A Necron Warlord (see 'Codex: Necrons' for 5th and later Editions).

[Arkangilos]

The golden age STC carrying CPU units had or were build in to replication moduls and could very well produce stuff.

 

 

The first are the Four Major Chaos Gods (With Tzeentch on top)

 

Wasn't with tzeench the thing, that he had the option the get an omnipotent knowladge of past and future [and not divination/possible future/etc], but each demon he sent in to the well that gave that knowladge ended up dead or crazy?

 

I didn't say making them happy, I said the survival of the human race, which IS his goal. I don't get where you get "make them happy" from, "his goal is the survival of the human race".

 

But it isn't, unless newest fluff changed it. Both the shaman versions of him coming in to existance, say that he was created/birthed to combat chaos in an efficient way. The end goal is the removal of chaos as a threat. Now how this can be done is a seprate thing[easiest way is killing everything that lives, but you do not get a garentee that in milienia some other that has an imprint on the warp won't suddenly pop up]. And emps did dable in different projects, both long and short them[as in long/short for an immortal warp being of course]. And some of those projects were droped like the one from faith&fire .

Yes, he was created to stop chaos (if the shaman stuff still is lore) for the purpose of the survival of humanity. Look it up, so far everything we have says everything he does is for the survival of humanity.

[Ascanius]

 

But the Emperor has admitted that He's failed. Also, things like Arvida's vision pretty much confirm he'll be suffering on the Throne.

 

By "admit he's failed," I mean "give up and let the Imperium die." All his continued presence on the Golden Throne does is extend the stalemate and prolong the suffering of each Imperial generation.

[Bjorn Firewalker]

 

But the Emperor has admitted that He's failed. Also, things like Arvida's vision pretty much confirm he'll be suffering on the Throne.

By "admit he's failed," I mean "give up and let the Imperium die." All his continued presence on the Golden Throne does is extend the stalemate and prolong the suffering of each Imperial generation.

What alternatives exist that do NOT result in the human race's extinction?

[Ascanius]

What makes you think the human race is better off living like that than extinct?

 

Past that, how can the brutality of the Imperium not be at least partially responsible for so many of its miserable citizens falling for the blandishments of Chaos?

 

I've long thought that it wasn't even supposed to be particularly ambiguous in the full scope of the setting that the Imperium's repressive methods are not actually the best way to fight against Chaos. Maybe if people weren't enslaved to the totalitarian Imperial mindset and its colossal war machine, they'd be better off.

 

If nothing else, it isn't working. It's about as effective as Prohibition was at killing off the alcohol trade. There are other analogies that spring to mind, I'm sure.

[Zodd1888]

@Jeske All thrown in were in effect lost to the warp, except Kairos Fateweaver. That said, he did not come out unscathed.

[Mellow]

Dark Imperium establishes that, when Roboute Guilliman stood before the Golden Throne, he had a psychic conversation with the Emperor.

 

Now, I mean, it could be a sham - some other psyker hiding in the next room, impersonating him - but Guilliman took it on face value.

 

On the other topic . . . the Emperor's avowed goal isn't exactly selfish, but it's not exactly altruistic to enslave the entire species under your iron fist, either, even if it's "for their own good, ultimately".

Oh yes. The Emperor is definitely around still. He is a complete arse in the sense that He doesn't really care about the Primarchs as "sons" and it hurt Guillimans feelings. But they are tools to Him because He wants to save Humanity.

 

He also wasn't selfish. His end goal as described across multiple novels is the survival of Humanity, the destruction of Chaos and also giving the power to run The Imperium back to human normals.

 

Malcador is essentially against that last part thinking that Humanity will always need The Emperor.

 

Also ... STCs are meant to be factory sized 3D printers with an attached AI. I'm not sure He ever had one. It would make sense if there was one in the imperial dungeon but it's probably too dangerous to use them because of "Men of Iron" reasons.

[Ascanius]

 

He also wasn't selfish. His end goal as described across multiple novels is the survival of Humanity, the destruction of Chaos and also giving the power to run The Imperium back to human normals.

 

 

As I said, not exactly selfish, but certainly not concerned at all with what humanity might want for itself, collectively or individually.

 

The Emperor is the ultimate galactic paternalist: only he knows what is best for humanity, no-one else's opinion ultimately matters at all, and any amount of suffering or cruelty is justified by his goal.

[Mellow]

You’re missing the point. He wanted to give power back to “Human normals” when he considered Humanity safe.

[bluntblade]

It's something of a nightmare scenario in its own right, that such tyranny is necessary.

[Arkangilos]

@ Mellow

 

Exactly. He even began doing so before the outbreak of the Heresy when he created the Council of Terra. In Horus Rising (or False Gods?) it was one of the things that Horus was crying about.

[Kinstryfe]

The irony being that one left to its own devices, humanity is fairly self defeating when it comes to the Emperor's goals. He wanted a humanity that lived by logic and reason, who safely evolved into a Galaxy leading psychic race and considered the stars. Fairly immediately they got a society ruled by arcane superstition and religion, who persecutes those who would eventually lead humanity into a psychic species, and an eternity of war among the stars. The tragedy being that the Emperor had designs for humanity that were either outside of their reality, or which could legitimately only be realized with Him at the helm. Ironically, the only one vested in ushering this kind of future for humanity come 40k is one of his "sons/tools", and the primary tool for enacting this vision is the Astartes. Horus' concerns were, also ironically, pointless, as humanity has shown it lacks the ability to progress under self governance. All signs point to the Primarchs and Astartes ultimately always being needed for The Emperor's plans to come to fruition, and baseline humanity effectively just being along for the ride into their megapsycher future. In the end Horus was right. The Emperor would have turned more and more power back over to humanity, and they would have messed things up more and more the more power they got back.

[Ascanius]

You’re missing the point. He wanted to give power back to “Human normals” when he considered Humanity safe.

 

Did he? Even if he said so, did he really? Ain't a lot of tyrannical rulers who give up their power.

 

It's something of a nightmare scenario in its own right, that such tyranny is necessary.

 

Are you sure? Seems to me that the galaxy wasn't exactly falling apart when the Emperor launched its Great Crusade. Humanity wasn't in any particular danger of extinction at the hands of xenos or Chaos. The only pressing "need" was the Emperor's desire to force all humans into his prescribed scheme for evolution.

 

The explanation you give is often used to explain why things have to be the way they are in the 40K era, and I'd point out that:

 

a) that's what people who support the Imperium believe, but it's not necessarily the case

 

b) all totalitarian regimes justify themselves as necessary and righteous bulwarks against an otherwise insurmountable threat

 

c) the awful conditions caused by the Imperium's totalitarian nature seem to me to be largely responsible for people turning to the false promises of Chaos in the first place

 

d) it's not working - Chaos is stronger than ever despite 10,000 years of repression and intolerance of liberty. That ain't a coincidence.

[Kinstryfe]

Not to mention, it's been pointed out that Unification in the first place was a somewhat unpopular act, and that some parts of the world felt they were doing just fine when they were conquered. It was one of the earlier heresy books (ah, short story Blood Games) that pointed out Hy Brasil basically only joined I believe over threat of a horribly escalating war, and was strong enough to secure some measure of autonomy. So even Unification was less the fairytale they talk about and really just a guy with a bunch of psycho lab grown soldiers deciding he was going to be in charge of the entire world and beyond.

 

The timeline as I can hash it out is something like this:

The Emperor, who claims to be an immortal psychic from the very dawn of humanity (unverifiable) decides he wants to conquer the Earth.

The Emperor, utilizing genetic engineering technology and mechanical technology, creates the Thunder Warriors, and uses them to strategically conquer certain nations, leading to higher levels of technology among his own armies.

The Emperor continues his expansion, eventually ridding the Earth of most of the more inhumane and destructive rulers (Narthan Dume, Cardinal Tang), and others who were allegedly involved with the ruinous powers. This is, theoretically, a boon for humanity as a whole. Along the way, The Emperor collects many of the heirs to conquered territories and engineers them into his Custodian Guard, simultaneously ridding the world of potential claimants as well as building up his fighting force with more superhuman warriors.

Having conquered most of the more aggressive empires on Terra, The Emperor now controls a significant portion of the planet, including major manufacturing and population centers. Highlights include the Terrawatt Clan, the former Panpacific Empire, and Albyon, among many others. He starts (continues?) work on the Primarch project, to create 20(ish) tools to lead his armies to victory.

The Primarch Project is sabotaged by the ruinous powers, possibly involving time travel, and the Primarchs are spread throughout the universe. Remaining generic information is used to more quickly mass produce new armies of superhuman warriors.

Through a combination of diplomacy, negotiation, and threat of costly sustained war, and actual war, the remaining nations of Terra are brought together under the banner of Unification. Particularly powerful or influential nations are given limited autonomy to rule themselves so long as it is in the interest of The Emperor.

Luna is forcibly brought under the rule of The Emperor.

The Thunder Warriors are purged, being unsuitable for the expansion back into the stars. The Astartes finish replacing them as The Emperor's line troops.

An alliance with Mars is negotiated, The Emperor taking the role of The Omnisiah in the Martian cult. The Imperium is formed, uniting the two planets.

Mankind once again takes to the stars, basically covering everything up until present.

 

Basically, every action The Emperor took was to solidify his own power. Even taking other human worlds into compliance had the effect of feeding more troops, manufacturing, and rediscovered tech into his hands. Even the webway project would have expanded his power in exponential ways. So I don't buy that he did it all for humanity. It may have been among his long time goals, but you can't tell me that he didn't really like being in charge, or he could have done things much differently at different times.

[Mellow]

 

You’re missing the point. He wanted to give power back to “Human normals” when he considered Humanity safe.

 

Did he? Even if he said so, did he really? Ain't a lot of tyrannical rulers who give up their power.

 

I'm going by what Malcador has stated in a previous Novel. It was Malcador of all people that thought Humanity would always need The Emperor.

[Arkangilos]

And yes he did, as we have already pointed out several times, he created the council of Terra to rule, which was one of Horus's complaints. Why do you keep ignoring that?

[Arkangilos]

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Council_of_Terra

[the jeske]

 

Humanity wasn't in any particular danger of extinction at the hands of xenos or Chaos

if it wasn't for the crusades and the founding of the empire, nids would have eaten everything when they arrived. And what they would encounter would be the mega orks that ruled everything. Humans would be happy if some of them survived as slaves.

[bluntblade]

Who would've opposed the Ullanor Empire and the Rangdan threat if not the Emperor's armies?

[Ascanius]

 

 

Humanity wasn't in any particular danger of extinction at the hands of xenos or Chaos

 

if it wasn't for the crusades and the founding of the empire, nids would have eaten everything when they arrived. And what they would encounter would be the mega orks that ruled everything. Humans would be happy if some of them survived as slaves.

 

a) Pharos has established it was Barabas Dantioch's overloading the Pharos device to mess up the Night Lords that first attracted the attention of the Great Devourer. No Great Crusade, it could easily have been much longer before something from the Milky Way caught the eye of the hivemind - or, at least, that tendril of it.

 

b) Tyranids or orks or any other species, you're assuming that the enslavement of all humanity under a tyrannical ruler is necessary to ensure the survival of the species, which is exactly the assumption I'm calling into question.

 

The orks weren't five minutes from taking over the galaxy when the Emperor showed up with his Space Marines, and nor was anything else. Some worlds were fine and some worlds were terrible. Some worlds were ruled or preyed upon by xenos and some worlds had friendly relations, if any at all. The argument that all humanity must be unified and all xenos species exterminated is a political ideology, not a universal truth.

 

(Orks, too, get bigger and stronger in response to bigger and stronger enemies, so arguably those mega orks would never have existed if the Space Marines hadn't rocked up to challenge them!)

[Mellow]

They also get bigger and stronger the longer they survive and the bigger the Waaagh. So huge Orks was always a definite eventuality.