CSM as second army - Help with Legion choice

[lash144]

Hey there :)

 

The last weeks I thought a lot about starting a second army besides my Imperial Guard (I just need a break of painting green and khaki :P) and the CSM, especially the Alpha Legion and the Night Lords really caught my interest from a fluff and design perspective.

 

But I´m really not sure how both Legions would play on the tabletop (in a fluffy and efficient way).

 

I would appreciate a focus on close combat because well I already play Guard for the shooting part, but some shooting is also okay.

 

So my question is, if someone could be so kind and describe playstyle´s of both Legions to me, i.e.:

- Do they prefer close combat or shooting

- Which units do they prefer to use

- etc.

 

 

Thanks in advance!

[MyD4rkPassenger]

The new Night Lords Legion rules excel at breaking the enemy in the fight phase and ruin them in the morale step.  Raptors already impose a -1 to morale, furthered by another for the legion trait, and if you have the points pop the Nurgle Icon for another -1.  Thats already a -3 from one unit.  Get another 2 infantry or helbrute units nearby and you're looking at -5 to moral checks.  Their strategem also allows you to keep longer range units safe by imposing a -1 to hit on them after the opponent has declared them the target.  Multiple small squads of infantry, raptors, warp talons, and some long range support via daemon engines and havocs is generally how I have the core of my force set up.  Additionally the relic lightning claws available to characters absolutely wrecks opponents in cc.  

 

Their legion combat style focuses on lightning raids and breaking enemy morale, and I feel 8th finally lets me play this style effectively. 

Edited September 14, 2017 by MyD4rkPassenger

[the jeske]

go AL. one of the most flexbile chaos army right now[rules/list building wise].

[Aothaine]

They are both really good atm. Alpha Legion as the jeske states is one of the most flexible chaos armies right now. But you also stated that you were looking to get stuck in. If so, Night Lords is where you want to be headed. They amp every assault unit we can field. MyD4rkPassenger stated what you will be doing with Night Lords. Pretty much wrecking face.

 

Alpha Legion: Can really make use of every unit in our codex and build a list around it.

 

Night Lords: Should focus on close combat to make the most of their legion trait. CSM squads with chainswords in rhinos, Raptors, Warp Talons, Helbrutes, Heldrakes(Though I don't think these get the legion bonus they are still amazing)

Edited September 14, 2017 by Aothaine

[lash144]

First of all thanks for help everyone :)

 

What you are writing about the Night Lords sounds very appealing to me. So they are kind of 'hit them hard and fast'?

 

 

 

To the Alpha Legion: Like both of you said they excel in their flexibility, which is of course nice. But doesnt a gunline benefit more from their Legion Trait than an Assault army. (Sure it´s nice to get your units easy in to charge distance, but I feel like it´s better for an shooty style)

[ChazSexington]

First of all thanks for help everyone

 

What you are writing about the Night Lords sounds very appealing to me. So they are kind of 'hit them hard and fast'?

 

 

 

To the Alpha Legion: Like both of you said they excel in their flexibility, which is of course nice. But doesnt a gunline benefit more from their Legion Trait than an Assault army. (Sure it´s nice to get your units easy in to charge distance, but I feel like it´s better for an shooty style)

 

I kind of disagree with Jeske, because our Trait and Stratagem don't synergise that well. Anything you infiltrate better be able to take an absolute hammering (and it's only Infantry that can be infiltrated which means not bloody likely) or be cheap enough that they soak enough firepower relative to your expensive Predators/Helbrutes/Havocs for your firepower to be intact when it's your turn (alternatively run with Noise Marines and go first). To me, it's how fluff translates into crunch, and it does better than it has before, but it's still not as good as it could be. Our rules are optimised for Havocs and Helbrutes in the rear, with Noise Marines at the front, which seems... odd. I'm not a power gamer, but the crunch could've matched the fluff a bit better. 

 

Even though I am an Alpha Legion player, I would suggest the VIIIth. If you at a later point look at 30k, I would suggest the Alpha Legion, because the Night Lords are much more similar to their 30k counterparts than the XXth. In 30k, the Alpha Legion is wholly unpredictable - they are tactically and strategically flexible, which is what their fluff is all about. 

[Sception]

It's not that alpha legions pieces necessarily work together, and more that each of those pieces is individually better than any other legion's entire suite of abilities.

 

So if you want to do a long range shooty army, then you can, and your legion trait, by itself, is better for that then anything that any other legion has to offer.

 

And if you want to do an up close & personal short range / melee army, then you can, and your stratagem, by itself, is better for that then anything that any other legion has to offer.

 

As such, alpha legion doesn't push you too heavily into particular builds, making them very versatile.  They prefer their melee units to be on the larger end, to conserve command points on the stratagem, but otherwise it's pretty wide open.

 

Compare to the night lords.  Their stratagem is decent, doesn't push them too much one way or the other.  Their legion trait, however, while decent, heavily pushes them towards melee range MSU, so that's what a night lords army will do.  Of course, getting into melee range is a major pain for any legion other than Alpha Legion, but there you go.  Jump troops, bikes, msu infantry in rhinos, that sort of thing will make up the bulk of a night lords army, and if you know you'll be playing against Night Lords, that's what you can expect to face.

 

 

You can play whatever legion you think is cool, the core rules are decent and flexible enough that we're not hanging on subfaction abilities to carry us.  BUT if you're looking for a CSM subfaction that will do something for melee, there's only a few that really matter.

 

Renegades: the ability to advance and still charge is good.  It makes second turn charges out of your rhinos against stand-offish enemy formations much more reliable.  Renegade armies prefer khorne alignment on their melee units for the icons, as if you're advancing to charge you're looking at some slightly longer ranges to begin with, so the extra help to make those charges is appreciated.  generally you'll be looking at pretty standard CSM set ups - probably multiple MSU units sharing transports, with some fire support in the back.

 

World Eaters: berzerkers are one of our best melee units, and WE get them as troops.  but they still have as hard a time delivering them as anyone else, and they don't get psykers, when sorcerers are probably our faction's best asset.  Sure, you can take them in a side detachment, and probably should, but that's not super fluffy.  Anyway, again MSU units sharing transports is probably the best delivery.

 

Night Lords: their trait can get you a few extra casualties in melee.  Or not - several armies are still basically immune to morale.  Heavily encourages MSU infantry, in particular clown cars (2 5 man squads sharing a rhino), but that's basically how (non-alpha) CSMs do delivery anyway, so it's not a major sacrifice.  the melee units could take nurgle for an extra leadership debuff off the icon, but khorne is probably preferred to help get you into melee in the first place.

 

Alpha Legion: the strongest.  By a wide margin.  Because the main weakness of our melee infantry is delivery, and Alpha Legion lets you sidestep that weakness completely.  Are you going to go first?  Deploy your models in range for a nearly guaranteed first turn charge.  Are you going second?  Deploy your units as close to the opponent as you can while remaining out of sight or at least in cover.  Again, that alone is better than anything that any other legion can do for CSM melee units.  Just watch out on your CP use, and keep in mind that only up to half of your units can use the stratagem, the rest half to deploy normally, so you'll take some longer ranged fire support.  But that's where your legion trait kicks in, making those fire support units more durable than those of any other CSM legion.  Because of the half unit restriction, and to save CPs, and because they don't have to fit in transports, Alpha Legion melee infantry can actually be taken in larger units.

 

This makes Alpha Legion really the only CSM melee army that can field an army that looks or plays really appreciably differently from those of any other legion.  All the others run their MSU melee infantry units doubled up in rhinos and hope for turn 2 charges - that's now night lords play, that's how world eaters play, that's how renegades play.  When they want to do melee, that's how all of the other legions play, too.  And Alphas can do that if they really want, but they can instead take big melee units that just deploy in range to charge on the first turn, and there is just a world of difference between a handful of tiny units that might charge on the second turn and one huge unit of berzerkers that will charge on the first.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

I can see the argument for MSU shooting squads, but due to the way overwatch works, aren't MSU melee squads kind of risky?

[Panzer]

I can see the argument for MSU shooting squads, but due to the way overwatch works, aren't MSU melee squads kind of risky?

MSU is a trade off. It has advantages and disadvantages. However I really couldn't care less about Overwatch unless it's with Flamer or similar. The few amount of 6s normal people tend to roll won't really put your charging multi-model unit in any real danger. The only problem is if your dice are cursed and you fail the charge distance with multiple units so the enemy can overwatch all of them lol

[techsoldaten]

While I realize this is unpopular to say, I am starting to appreciate the Black Legion's legion trait a little more each game.

 

Offering this in comparison to the Night Lords, since they both deal with leadership. 

 

Night Lords reduce leadership for opponents based on the number of units within 6 inches. Provided you can force a morale check, there's always going to be at least a -1.

 

Black Legion has a +1 to it's own leadership. It applies to every unit in the army and applies regardless of the situation.

 

So... the question is would you like to remove your opponent's models from the board faster, or keep your own on a little longer. I am finding the later makes more sense, especially with things like Havocs, Chosen, Terminators, CSMs and even cultists. There are so many situations where the +1 leadership means passing a morale check outright or keeping that last guy on the table.

 

For that matter, I am finding it matters a little more than the Alpha Legion legion trait. The -1 to hit means a 16% reduction in hits, which tends to work out to be a small number. Save a wound or save someone from fleeing? I am not sure it makes a difference, except that the Black Legion trait applies in close combat as well as distance shooting.

 

Food for thought. I like Night Lords and Alpha Legion and don't mean to take them down with this observation. Someone please correct me if I am really off about this, but I am starting to question which legion traits really lead to more success on the table. None of them have a huge impact on games, but it feels like the situational ones come into play less often than one might expect.

[Sception]

one less casualty from morale isn't generally a big enough deal to matter.  large cultist units are likely to take so much damage that they're out anyway, small marine units are frequently dead before they even start taking morale tests.

 

The alpha legion trait makes a huge difference, especially on units like deredeos or the like, where one less lascannon hit can easily be the difference on whether its there to shoot or not next turn.

 

As a BL player, I'd be overjoyed to trade our trait for theirs, though I do make do.

 

 

Frankly, as far as my games have gone, we might as well not even have a legion trait.  The stratagem, special character, and artefact are alright, though

[Syrakul]

The BL trait has worked for me a few times each game because I was trying to play with larger CSM units that overall didn't seem viable to run in the future. If taking Terminators and Havocs, or other elite units it is far more appreciated though. compared to reroll morale it can be better as 4 models must die before you have the potential to lose a model (assuming LD8 sarge/base LD), making those squads practically fearless. The Rapid Fire to Assault is an afterthough, as it comprises bolters and plasma, with a -1 to hit making plasma shots absurd.

 

Night Lords trait as the flipside with  -LD... can be brutal when focusing a list on CC elements, be it Berserkers (can be themed conversions rather than the old-clunky plastic kit) or massed Raptors, though their strength is in their jumpback and shoot, pinpoint DS plasma/melta and late game mobility. If they had the option to take dual CC or melee special weapons then it would be a different conversation, otherwise BP/chainsword marines aren't much in CC.

 

I do feel that Raptors more balanced to bikes this edition (often compared and found lacking compared to in 7th) Though in the night lords case the raptors effectiveness is lessened by the trait requiring close combat from them.

 

Best use Ive seen is kitting out medium sized squads (8-10) with dual plasma/combi, dropping onto cover nearby moderate threats 9-12 inches (against SM, or non-melee focused enemy) and focus firing. if shot you're 2+, if charged you will likely keep your weapon models and can use your flee and shoot to continue to be a nuisance all game. kit out a Lord for CC and hide him in 2 squads (so their plasma is safe), then only plan for charges on the turn after dropping so you guarantee everyone moves forward and makes it in. The lord does the wounds, with some help from squads, THEN you see the enemy shed in the morale phase. Use FLY to surround shooting enemies to lock them from moving out if they survive.

[lash144]

I think I will stick to the Alpha Legion just because I like the colour scheme a slightly better. The green hightlights on the blue armour are just too nice :)

 

What do you recommend model wise for starting? Is the Start Collecting box worth it? I guess those marines are a good base for an army, but what´s about the Lord in Terminator Armour and especially the Hellbrute in a melee oriented list?

[Sception]

The start collecting box is ok, but I'd build the 10 marines that come in it as 2 units of 5 havocs, either with heavy bolters or lascannons, depending on whether little stuff or big stuff is a bigger problem in your local area respectively.  In either case, I'd use FW bits for the heavy weapons:

 

Heavy Bolters: https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-NO/Legion-Heavy-Bolter-Set-2015

 

Lascannons: https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-NO/Ryza-Pattern-Lascannon-Set

 

 

Although the regular CSM heavy bolters are pretty cheap from bits resellers usually, so you might look into that instead if you decide on heavy bolters.

 

 

For the helbrute, I'd go with a long ranged set up, probably lascannons plus missile launcher - especially if you go for heavy bolters on the havocs - to make the best use of its 'fire twice' stratagem.

 

 

The terminator HQ I'd build as a sorcerer, as the Dark Hereticus discipline is full of fantastic options.

 

 

That gets you an HQ and some decent fire support, but you'll still need troops, and I personally like some melee or close range options to go with the infiltrate stratagem.  A couple sets of Dark Vengeance Cultists off of ebay or bits resellers are where I'd start.  Plus maybe a unit of berzerkers, plus a dark apostle (I recommend skipping the official resin model and instead using the chosen champion with the power mace from the dark vengeance box, you can generally find it from third party bits resellers or ebay) to give the 'zerks hit rerolls and slightly mitigate morale wounds on the cultists.  

 

So we're looking at something like:

 

Terminator Sorcerer (combi plasma, force staff, mark of slaanesh)

Dark Apostle (power mace, bolt pistol)

 

10 to 12 berzerkers (maybe a fist on the champ, maybe a couple plasma pistols, try to give the rest chain axe & chain sword)

Helbrute (lascannons, missile launcher)

 

20 cultists (2 flamers, melee weapons)

2x10 cultists (1 heavy stubber, rifles)

 

2x5 havocs (each with 4x heavy bolters, or maybe 4x lascannons if there's an unusually high amount of big stuff in your area)

 

 

That gets you a legal battalion, coming in around 1000 points.

 

Deep strike the sorcerer, infiltrate the larger cultist blob, apostle, and berzerkers, deploy the rest.  You'll have 3 CP left over for double-shooting the helbrute, or maybe bringing back the bigger cultist blob if they get almost but not quite wiped out.

 

 

After that, the next thing I'd look at is maybe some terminators to go with the sorcerer.  I'd get combi plasma for the terminators, and mark them slaanesh for the double shoot stratagem.  There are various ways to convert it.  Alternatively, bits-order either the cataphractii or tartarus plastic terminator combi-bolters, and then get the appropriate combi plasma conversion bits from this third party seller:

 

cataphracti: https://www.shapeways.com/product/V6XGGBSE9/10x-combi-plasma-calth-terminator-bit
tartarus:  https://www.shapeways.com/product/T5S944ECE/10x-combi-plasma-prospero-terminator-bit

 

They also do "hydra" legion icons for shoulder pads

 

left:  https://www.shapeways.com/product/SFGMHAEAZ/60x-hydra-legion-left-shoulder-insignia-pack?optionId=63450698
right:  https://www.shapeways.com/product/4XV9W2EEY/60x-hydra-legion-right-shoulder-insignia-pack?optionId=63450773

 

Along with a bunch of other 'Hydra" legion stuff that might be worth looking at.

 

https://www.shapeways.com/search?q=hydra+legion&type=

 

As a note: the plastic horus heresy cataphracti (and I think tartarus) terminators are available for sale separately - if you don't mind a slightly less corrupted look, you could get them instead of chaos terminators and not have to order the bolters.  IMO cataphracti look better, but tartarus come with probably the better choice of melee weapons, simply in the interest of saving points.

 

Alternatively, you could build terminators more for melee.  Maybe khorne with an icon, maybe plain combi bolters instead of expensive combi plas, and either warp-time them with the sorcerer on deep striking, or just infiltrate them, too, in which event you could justify a couple combi meltas, maybe even a heavy flamer.

 

 

That would push you up to about 1250.  Maybe burn another 50 to 100 points on pushing the big cultist blob up to 30 or 40.  Beyond that, just whatever you feel like you need, or maybe start looking at a generic chaos side detachment to bump up your CP total and poach good options from other legions, daemons, or renegades & heretics.  Maybe some FW stuff - the dredeo dreadnought is a powerful unit, and one that greatly appreciates the Alpha Legion trait.

[lash144]

First thanks for your detailed advice, especially for the tips on the hydra bits and the concept for an first army list.

 

Whats wrong with the normal CSM? Was thinking about running a squad of them with Chainsword and Bolt Pistol, or is this a bad idea?

 

Commming from Guard I could scream about painting 40 Guardsm... ehm Cultist :P Is there maybe a way to build a more elite army?

[the jeske]

others will probably give a longer explanation, but in general it looks like this. There are better melee units if you want to do melee, there are better support units if you want to take support, there are better[aka cheaper] chaff . and by better I mean cheaper, more effiicent, with better stats sometimes all 3 at the same times. It sad, but nothing new for old csm players, that csm are not offten used in csm armies.

 

But in general go with the Mal list, it is cheap[well as far as GW cheap goes] and stuff like triple preds can wait. I also support the idea of first upgrade being a unit of terminators. They are realy good units[well good as far as csm goes] and do cost an arm and a leg to get, both points and money wise. which is not a common thing for csm units.

 

My only pice of a bit different advice is to not glue the missle launcher permanently on the dreadnought. Bit it is a minor difference, and more like  " you will need it in the future type" of advice. 

Edited September 17, 2017 by the jeske

[lash144]

Mh that is really sad to hear, because they are just the iconic troop choice. I guess the only thing which they can do better as those specialized choices is that they are troops and so can be useful for accquiring command points.

 

Haven´t done any research yet, but I guess the Hellbrute is magnetizable?

 

I didn´t even think about Predators, I had in mind building a elite strike force, a little bit like modern special forces, because that should be a good way to reflect the Alpha Legions fluff.

But I guess organizing a Cultist riot is also pretty fitting.

[the jeske]

I guess the only thing which they can do better as those specialized choices is that they are troops and so can be useful for accquiring command points.

 

 

well technicly. but for troops you want cultists because A they are cheaper [and the fact that they do nothing means little as your csm aren't doing much either] B you can get more of them [and you do need chaff or screening models in 8th ed to protect your shoty dudes from nasty suprises in form of deep strikes or assault]. C in dire moments you can actualy bring cultists back with CP, you can't do the same for csm.

 

 

Haven´t done any research yet, but I guess the Hellbrute is magnetizable?

 

yes.

 

 

I didn´t even think about Predators, I had in mind building a elite strike force, a little bit like modern special forces, because that should be a good way to reflect the Alpha Legions fluff.

But I guess organizing a Cultist riot is also pretty fitting.

 

It is actualy a bit the way they works. they start rebelions on planets, led by single AL or AL operatives[ humans with partial space marine augementation], while the actual AL try to perform their designeted missions [of course they also never know, if their mission isn't also a smoke screen to some other operation]. Game wise this gives you an oportunity to use everything . just think about stuff like cult troops a set of stats then actual cult units. zerkers can be melee specialists/veterans. EC can be dudes with experimental xeno weapons. PM can be your bording action/siege specialists etc.

 

Even preds can be a fun project. Getting tanks on a planet fast is not easy[well aside for BAs maybe], so you could have your preds modeled as either re armed civilian vehicles[like the Gene stealer cult miner vehicles] or plain stolen from an imperial car park.

[Sception]

Regular CSMs aren't terrible, and while other units will do shooting (havocs, noise marine) or melee (berzerkers) or both (terminators) better than CSMs, CSMs do get that obsec rule in CSM detachments.  There are always better units, but you can play them and have them do work.

[the jeske]

ok, but if the game falls to moment when obj sec becomes a crucial factor to wining/losing. this means that the "good" stuff is dead, and that also means that the csm player is probably on a good way to losing.

There is world of difference between runing msu csm and let say loyalists sm or SW, mostly because havocks backs are nor razorbacks in any shape or form.

[lash144]

Regular CSMs aren't terrible, and while other units will do shooting (havocs, noise marine) or melee (berzerkers) or both (terminators) better than CSMs, CSMs do get that obsec rule in CSM detachments. There are always better units, but you can play them and have them do work.

How would you run them, when their job is filling out troop slots, taking objectives in the back and providing light support fire?

 

5 men MSU with a combi-weapon plus special/heavy weapon?

[Closet Skeleton]

While I realize this is unpopular to say, I am starting to appreciate the Black Legion's legion trait a little more each game.

 

Advancing and shooting bolters is a joke until you change to another marine army and keep forgetting you can't do it.

 

 

Frankly, as far as my games have gone, we might as well not even have a legion trait.  The stratagem, special character, and artefact are alright, though

 

I've never used the stratagem, artifact or Abaddon and get use out of the trait every game.