Best way to deal with Killshot Preds

[Gentlemanloser]

No Raven.

 

Assume the preds are screened by multiple Cultist (or other chaff) units.

 

How would you take them out before each one deletes a GMNDK / Dread / Razor a turn?

 

Edit. Also assume that the enemy has enough CP to Killshot each turn.

Edited September 15, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Godeskian]

What does Killshot do?

[Gentlemanloser]

+1 to wound rolls and +1 Damage to monsters and vehicles.

 

Also assume all are in range of a chapter master to reroll 1's to hit.

 

I'll ignore things like +1 hit for one of the three from prescience.

 

Basically it's 16 lascannon shots hitting on 3's rerolling 1. Wounding on 2's. Damage d6+1.

Edited September 15, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Helycon]

Hide out of LoS?

 

:p

[Eddie Orlock]

You only need to take one out to deny the stratagem. Also, only 4 lascannons across three tanks is only a dozen so empowered per turn.

 

The basics have it fall back to the old 'Shoot the choppies, chop the shooties' adage. What can you muster that can leap to the far side of the chaff screen? Interceptor squads with command points to re-roll the post shunt charge? Stuff delivered via storm raven? Massed razorbacks rolling around a corner to beat them at their own game?

 

Alternatively, if you can force any of those rapid insertion elements into a combat that envelops the tank you can stop that one from moving away and be safe from the others via melee targeting restrictions.

 

If you're willing to go full tailor for a few games, you could do target keyword denial for a few games and attempt some kind of teleport strike with massed infantry? For the bits you are compelled to deploy, use astra-aim to do target denial until your reserves port in? At least until your opponent becomes less certain of the utility of the full predator squadron. It sounds like he might be tailoring against you, in which case counter-tailor is appropriate.

[Gentlemanloser]

No room to ds between the chaff and preds. And no room behind them due to board edge.

 

Engage the chaff in cc and either wipe them leaving yourself open to a turn of shooting and possible counter charge after.

 

Or the chaff falls back and you get shot and have to deal with chaff again.

 

Yeah taking one out stops the strat. But still leaves 8 lascannon shots rerolling 1's to hit. (The warlord isn't going to be closest to shoot).

 

It's a tough set up for GK to deal with. As apart from a Raven we only really have TL LC razors or Dreads ( which are more expensive and less durable than the preds with less LC shots).

 

And our Smite won't help us either.

 

It's not a tailoring. He uses the tri pred and master setup in every game.

 

Now pairing it with the bonkers FW contemptor with the stupid auto mortal wound guns and the hellbrute strat that lets it fire twice if not moved.

 

4d3 attacks hitting on 2+ rerolling 1's ( thanks again chapter master! ) with each hit dealing an auto mortal wound. No wound roll.

 

But i digress. I rip that to bits in CC. it's the preds that are a killer.

Edited September 15, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Eddie Orlock]

As simple as the 'Hide out of sight' quip above was, it may also be a viable answer. Find/build some large and opaique ruins/hills/billboards, to line down the centre of the table and clutter things up to avoid the deadly charge across open ground. Create some L.o.S. denied pockets to place the objectives in and plan to win on mission points?

 

Strategically make him come to you.

[AnImA8]

My friend took a few preds and a LR to support his Daemon Princes and Berzerkers. The first game I played they were an absolute nightmare, and I got badly beaten. I retooled my list with more long-ranged AT in the form of a pair of LR's and a couple of Lascannon Razorbacks. I was able to put down his LR and a couple of Razorbacks over the course of the game, but even by the end it was close. All I would say in that regard is just dont discount the kind of hurt our LR's can put out now-a-days, but recognize that going first is likely the deciding factor in that kind of a shooting match.

[Gentlemanloser]

I considered LR, but they are far too expensive. Ours are 339 with just the lascannons.

 

With other guns that's equal to 2 preds. Which have double the LC shots.

 

Two TLC Razors are 230, still 40 points more expensive than a pred for the same number of shots.

 

I'm sure with a Raven I'll take 1 out. But then the other two will shoot it out the sky. And if i go second...

 

Gah.

[Seizeman]

You are overestimating how much damage heavy weapons do. It's highly unlikely 2 predators kill a stormraven in a single turn without the stratagem, much less a GMNDK with sanctuary.

 

It's not that hard to kill one of them. Two GMNDK, one of them using psyching onslaught, should be enough (or close to) to kill one predator before they can use kill shot. A stormraven with lascannons should kill one almost by itself, or most of one if it's only missiles and melta.

 

Also, how many cultists is he playing? You should be able to kill 30+ a turn without disembarking, which is usually enough to open a hole and be able to charge something.

[AnImA8]

I think it's interesting how our perspective on things get skewed in different direction. Gentlemanloser you say that LR's carry too hefty of a price tag, but I use two and 30 purifiers (which again, people say are overpriced) and they've worked well for me so far. Not to mention that a dedicated AT Stormraven is easily valued at 300+ points too.

Likewise Seizeman, I wouldn't necessarily bet the house on the Stormraven surviving shooting from Preds even without that Strategem. Those Predator Autocannons are nothing short of terrifying, and I wouldn't want them getting first turn against an open Raven lol.

Having said that, LR's, SR's, and NDK's (HQ or otherwise) are gonna be your best anti-tank from a list-writing perspective. When it comes to the actual in-game tactics like clearing the "chaff", I think we can all agree that it's just gonna depend on the individual game/map/turn order. Have you considered just a fat mob of Deepstriking Strikes to clear the way? I know everyone is all about Paladins for their durability, but in the end nothing puts out as many shots as our basic infantry, which should be more than enough for cultists.

EDIT: also, Psybolt Ammunition is a pretty legit strategem. If you do decide to try that 10-man Strike Squad and can take shots on one of the Predators after clearing their entourage, I would consider dropping the 2 CP for it. S5 gives no benefit against T7 (but it did make a world of difference in one game I had where I had to strip a couple more wounds of a LR), but the -1AP can give you that edge if you need it. 

Edited September 16, 2017 by AnImA8

[Gentlemanloser]

That's one of the problems. Our best anti tanks are the target's for kill shot.

 

Killshot versus LR;

 

12 shots. 9.33 hits. 7.78 wounds. 5.19 unsaved.

 

20.76 damage.

 

Killshot versus Raven

 

12 shots. 7 hits. 5.83 wounds. 4.86 unsaved.

 

19.44 damage.

 

Non killshot;

 

LR: 6.22 wounds. 4.15 unsaved. 12.45 damage

 

SR: 4.67 wounds. 3.89 unsaved. 11.67 damage

 

Yeah, Killshot is required to kill them in a single phase.

 

But they've both been degraded to almsot dead without it.

 

I'm starting to think LC preds are simply too cheap! Lol

Edited September 16, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[AnImA8]

You're not wrong about that assessment man. That's the nature of the game right now: first turn is fairly decisive this edition. But the flip-side is that if you get to take the first shot then he's having to deal with the same problem. Removing even one out of the three Preds precludes him from using that strategem, as well as significantly reduces his damage output. Did he have to pay as much to do it? no, but once that threat is gone the quality of our infantry should match or exceed his with proper play. Plus this is a problem that we've realistically been dealing with since the dawn of time. We've never had deepstriking meltas, and we've never had infantry-based long-range AT. C'est la vie amirite? lol

[Adeptus]

I do think with the way terrain has changed in this edition, a lot of players and clubs should take the opportunity to reevaluate their collections and make sure there's a fair variety of pieces that can totally block line of sight.

 

And I know it's heresy to suggest it, but could the Killshot Predator formation be a target that warrants the inclusion of a ten-man Terminator squad?

 

They can teleport close to the target, dump 40 Stormbolter shots into whatever chaff is surrounding it, tank the incoming fire from the Killshot Preds (if you use Sanctuary on them you will lose what, 4 or 5 terminators?) and in the following turn they stand a good chance of taking one of the Predators out, or at the very least engaging it in combat and preventing it from shooting. And if nothing else, it forces a choice on the opponent whether to direct all firepower and units to interdict the Terminators which are threatening his Killshot team, which leaves the GMNDK and Stormraven relatively unscathed, or to ignore them.

[AnImA8]

I like the way you think Adeptus. It's not a bad plan, my only complaint (and this is a preference thing methinks) is that I don't like putting multi-wound models in front of multi-damage guns. I think Terminators--aside from competing with Paladins--suffer from inhabiting an edition where 2+ damage weapons are plentiful and have a decent rate of fire. in general, I would prefer to put two full squads of strikes down over a ten man of Terminators since the strikes will waste the overkill from the lascannon shots. But that's just my way of looking at the problem.

[Adeptus]

True, but the strikes also have no Inv save which was what nudged me into the direction of Terminators. At any rate, I think it's something worth a try.

[Helycon]

 My quip actually got me thinking 

 

Getting a Vendread with Astral Aim might help. Then again, if he's putting all his eggs in the killshot basket, he should have 4 Preds for redundancy and getting luck out of the equation.

 

And when it comes to deepstriking something cheap with an invuln, how about a strikes with warding staves? It's tailoring a list for it, but considering how strong killshot is, it may well be worth taking a little blow in offense to get close to them.

Edited September 16, 2017 by Helycon

[Waking Dreamer]

My quip actually got me thinking :lol:

 

Getting a Vendread with Astral Aim might help. Then again, if he's putting all his eggs in the killshot basket, he should have 4 Preds for redundancy and getting luck out of the equation.

 

And when it comes to deepstriking something cheap with an invuln, how about a strikes with warding staves? It's tailoring a list for it, but considering how strong killshot is, it may well be worth taking a little blow in offense to get close to them.

Staves work only in CC though...enemy gunfire will target your armour save.

[Gentlemanloser]

I'm thinking massed strikes with hammers on the justicars.

 

DS to storm bolter chaff away. And charge turn after to smack with the hammer.

 

Who cares if the d6 damage LC hits a strike!

 

Well that or MM Servitors! :P

Edited September 16, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Helycon]

 

My quip actually got me thinking :lol:

 

Getting a Vendread with Astral Aim might help. Then again, if he's putting all his eggs in the killshot basket, he should have 4 Preds for redundancy and getting luck out of the equation.

 

And when it comes to deepstriking something cheap with an invuln, how about a strikes with warding staves? It's tailoring a list for it, but considering how strong killshot is, it may well be worth taking a little blow in offense to get close to them.

Staves work only in CC though...enemy gunfire will target your armour save.

Dang, forgot about that :(

[Corvus Fortis]

1. Raven full of strikes flies as close to the preds as possible.

2. Raven destoyes a pred with AV guns and screening cultist with SB's.

3. No matter if raven survive or not are out turn 2 and autocharge two remaining preds. 

4. Preds are silenced at least for 1 turn which have to be enough for other stuff to come closer.

 

Other then that - two GMs with Psi/Psy loadout, one with onslaught have chances to wipe one pred to cripple formation. Astral-Aimed Vendread behing LoS block with las\missile also helpful. 

[Gentlemanloser]

No Raven. ;)

[Helycon]

No Raven. ;)

Why no Raven? Eliminating one of the best units in our codex hardly seems clever. Edited September 16, 2017 by Helycon

[Gentlemanloser]

Other than losing first turn and watching a 326 odd point unit be taken out by killshot.

 

It was an exercise to see what else we have that could possibly do the job.

[Eddie Orlock]

No Raven.

Fine, two StormTalons with Lascannons.