Watchers of the Throne: The Emperor's Legion

[Petitioner's City]

First person perspective is unreliable - Valerian, and his fellow narrators, present oral histories which - because they are memories - are unreliable. Therefore the ideas in Watchers about the custodes are opinions of the main character - they may be (functionally) true but we cannot treat them as objective truth (if there is such a thing).

[Kelborn]

Regardless of pov, belief or whatever, we know nothing more than what the authors (in thus GW / BL) wants us to know.

 

There is a new codex coming. Most likely in February. Maybe this will be featured as well.

 

As for now, we only have a personal view, basing on the character's background, experiences, etc. in a book. It's not comparable to official codex fluff, right?

 

Are the Custodes able to wipe out a foe? Absolutely.

Are the Custodes able to wipe out all Astartes? Definitely not alone.

[Commander Dawnstar]

What I find a bit confusing about this whole discussion is that it seems to me that a very low-level statement - the Custodes were designed, equipped and trained so that they would be preeminently capable of hunting and killing the Emperor's later creations - is somehow being broadening out into a declaration that the Custodes alone would cull entire Legions of Space Marines once they had surpassed their usefulness. Nothing in that quotation directly points to a massive-scale endgame scenario, nor does any part of it suggest that the Custodes would eschew any and all support in the operation.

 

Perhaps I'm taking away too basic of a reading, but I'd essentially paraphrase Valerian as saying:

 

"These traitors were used to slaughtering other Space Marines or human soldiers, but from the very beginning we Custodes had been designed, equipped and trained to surpass and kill them. The galaxy thinks of the Astartes as 'The Emperor's Finest.' We but think of them as prey."

[Ogun]

That was perhaps the darkest of the many secrets we carried – that from the very

beginning, from even before the Great Crusade itself, we had been prepared for this and engineered to

surpass them. 

 

The crux of this argument seems to be resting on how people interpret 'them'. 

If we take 'them' to mean 'legions', then indeed the statement does not make much realistic sense. The legions were too big for the Custodes to deal with alone, and even when they dealt with the Thunder Warriors, the TW had already been badly weakened in their final battle. Valerian statement though simply says 'hunt' and 'surpass'.

If we take 'them' to mean 'astartes', then most of the controversy simply goes away. Yes, Custodes are better than astartes; that is long established lore. The Emperor, like most rulers, made sure his praetorian guard were superior to his line troops; in this case not just in term of equipment and training, but in engineering as well. So yes, Valerian is indeed expressing a personal view, but I would contend that he is factually correct; the custodes were deliberately designed to surpass and hunt down threats to the Emperor, including from his own astartes. This does not equate though to singlehandedly destroying legions.

[bluntblade]

It's quite possible that in ten millennia, someone could slip in recording someone else's history. "In the Webway, honed by seven years of struggle, we outmatched them as if we had been designed precisely to kill them" could get the Chinese Whispers effect.

 

The Custodian could also have been referring to the danger that a Legion might mutate, prove unstable etc. The Astartes seem to have been an unprecedented work for the complexity on such a scale; problems were probably foreseen. Being designed to surpass Legionaries doesn't necessarily translate to "we were meant to do in entire Legions once the Galaxy was secure".

[Kelborn]

Another question:

 

Custodes are said to be theoretically immortal, right?

Does that mean that we may have some Custodes from the HH-era or even older?

 

And along the Grey Knights, are the Custodes some of the greatest secret keepers, right?

 

So would it be possible to have some Custodes knowing the redacted Legions?

[Sete]

I don't think they are Immortal.

Like every one else they suffer from the degradation of knowledge through the passage of time.

[Ogun]

I think that that is unclear. Watchers of the Throne does not suggest it, but not does it rule it out either. It is indicated that at least the big players at the time of the Heresy are long dead. It is possible that some are still serving as dreadnoughts of course. In fact that is not improbable I suspect. 

[Sandlemad]

It's quite possible that in ten millennia, someone could slip in recording someone else's history. "In the Webway, honed by seven years of struggle, we outmatched them as if we had been designed precisely to kill them" could get the Chinese Whispers effect.

 

This. Everyone here knows to question and dig into the meaning when a 30k wolf confidently says 'we're the executioners'. Everyone knows it's even more important to do so when a 40k marine (or whoever) says confidently 'this is what we were created for 10k years ago, I understand our purpose with complete fidelity'. We should do the same for a 40k custodes, even if he's relatively well-informed by comparison.

 

I agree that the legio custodes, in 30k or 40k, was not exclusively equipped to take down a legion or the sum total of the astartes in the galaxy. But you can see how if you've got access to an inevitably partial record of the custodes' actions and the emperor's deeds, you could look at it and see that they led the purge of the thunder warriors (alongside the Dark Angels and the early astartes, not on their own) and that the emperor had a habit of using and discarding castes of genetically enhanced warriors.

 

Add ten millennia of scholarly speculation, bodyguard duty to an unspeaking leader/creator, and solidifying animosity towards the astartes, you could easily get a pensive custodes thinking 'we were designed to purge them, even if they came after us. That is what we do.'

[klisof]

That was perhaps the darkest of the many secrets we carried – that from the very

beginning, from even before the Great Crusade itself, we had been prepared for this and engineered to

surpass them.

The crux of this argument seems to be resting on how people interpret 'them'.

If we take 'them' to mean 'legions', then indeed the statement does not make much realistic sense. The legions were too big for the Custodes to deal with alone, and even when they dealt with the Thunder Warriors, the TW had already been badly weakened in their final battle. Valerian statement though simply says 'hunt' and 'surpass'.

If we take 'them' to mean 'astartes', then most of the controversy simply goes away. Yes, Custodes are better than astartes; that is long established lore. The Emperor, like most rulers, made sure his praetorian guard were superior to his line troops; in this case not just in term of equipment and training, but in engineering as well. So yes, Valerian is indeed expressing a personal view, but I would contend that he is factually correct; the custodes were deliberately designed to surpass and hunt down threats to the Emperor, including from his own astartes. This does not equate though to singlehandedly destroying legions.

This is exactly how I had interpreted it, he was talking about astartes not entire legions.

For custodes to take down an entire legion they would need support from other imperial forces to provide numbers and prevent the legion focusing on the custodes. The custodes would need to engage the legion piece meal to win.

[Moonreaper666]

Is it still canon that the Custodes defeated Orks that three Space Marine Legions could not defeat during the Great Crusade?

 

 

We should wait on the Siege of Terra novels for more Custodes vs Marines action

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

It is canon that a single World Eater, unarmored, ripped a Custodes apart with his bare hands. 

[karden00]

Oh! And the novel also confirmed Valdor survived the Heresy, as he collaborated with Guilliman in setting up the Imperium as it existed post-heresy. 

Or was it already known that Valdor survived? 

[Scribe]

It is canon that a single World Eater, unarmored, ripped a Custodes apart with his bare hands.

As a WE fan, there are two issues at least here.

 

1. It was in Outcast Dead, a weird book even in a loose canon setting.

 

2. That custodian was broken in some way.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

 

It is canon that a single World Eater, unarmored, ripped a Custodes apart with his bare hands.

As a WE fan, there are two issues at least here.

 

1. It was in Outcast Dead, a weird book even in a loose canon setting.

 

2. That custodian was broken in some way.

 

 

Trust me, Im actually aware of that. 

 

I was mostly having a laugh. Much like the idea that the Custodes can purge a Legion. I would have thought that The First Heretic and Inferno would have popped the invincibility myth of the Custodes.

[Ascanius]

The fact is, too, that 10,000 years is simply too long a period for any piece of information to be reliably recorded. Even if you had absolutely perfect record-keeping methods and data storage, and rigidly controlled your language so that linguistic drift did not occur (arguably impossible in itself), you can't ever be sure that the records you have are accurate.

 

Aside from needing to trust that the people who wrote the information down originally were unbiased and factual, you also have to trust that every single curator of those records in the intervening time refrained from altering the records - and any record of alterations made is itself suspect for the same reasons, quis custodiet ipsos custodes and all that.

 

You don't need to impute sinister motivations - history is full of examples where we're pretty sure people changed texts because they genuinely, honestly believed that what had been handed down to them had to be wrong, based on their understanding of X or Y factors. There are, of course, plenty of instances of people inserting things to suit their own purposes, too, like Christian amendments to Flavius Josephus's writings.

 

Whatever Valerian believes in M41 is not necessarily reflective of the Emperor's purposes back in M29 or whenever he started creating Custodians.

[Sete]

 

 

 

It is canon that a single World Eater, unarmored, ripped a Custodes apart with his bare hands.

As a WE fan, there are two issues at least here.

 

1. It was in Outcast Dead, a weird book even in a loose canon setting.

 

2. That custodian was broken in some way.

Trust me, Im actually aware of that.

 

I was mostly having a laugh. Much like the idea that the Custodes can purge a Legion. I would have thought that The First Heretic and Inferno would have popped the invincibility myth of the Custodes.

It's ridiculous. Just like a wolf pack killing a Primarch.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

 

 

 

It is canon that a single World Eater, unarmored, ripped a Custodes apart with his bare hands.

As a WE fan, there are two issues at least here.

 

1. It was in Outcast Dead, a weird book even in a loose canon setting.

 

2. That custodian was broken in some way.

Trust me, Im actually aware of that.

 

I was mostly having a laugh. Much like the idea that the Custodes can purge a Legion. I would have thought that The First Heretic and Inferno would have popped the invincibility myth of the Custodes.

It's ridiculous. Just like a wolf pack killing a Primarch.

 

 

Completely agree. 

 

a single Wolf pack would get massacred with ease. an actual assassin squad, geared up with the weapons, intent and surprise barely injured an unarmored Primarch. no single pack could drop a ready Primarch. 

I've always took the Watch Packs to be more like canaries in a coal mine than actual executioners of Primarchs.

[Scribe]

Careful now, postings from a Space Wolf fan, that I agree with multiple times in a row may open a warp rift...

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

 

 

 

It is canon that a single World Eater, unarmored, ripped a Custodes apart with his bare hands.

As a WE fan, there are two issues at least here.

 

1. It was in Outcast Dead, a weird book even in a loose canon setting.

 

2. That custodian was broken in some way.

Trust me, Im actually aware of that.

 

I was mostly having a laugh. Much like the idea that the Custodes can purge a Legion. I would have thought that The First Heretic and Inferno would have popped the invincibility myth of the Custodes.

It's ridiculous. Just like a wolf pack killing a Primarch.

 

 

Completely agree. 

 

a single Wolf pack would get massacred with ease. an actual assassin squad, geared up with the weapons, intent and surprise barely injured an unarmored Primarch. no single pack could drop a ready Primarch. 

I've always took the Watch Packs to be more like canaries in a coal mine than actual executioners of Primarchs.

 

 

From memory, Guilliman was thinking he was actually in a lot of danger in that ambush, and that he was pretty lucky to get out unscathed. Still, as you've said, that basically puts a fully-armed kill-squad on roughly equal footing with a surprised, unarmoured, and unarmed Primarch. If Guilliman had his weapons/armour, he'd be laughing as he tore them limb from limb.

[Scribe]

 

 

 

 

 

It is canon that a single World Eater, unarmored, ripped a Custodes apart with his bare hands.

As a WE fan, there are two issues at least here.

 

1. It was in Outcast Dead, a weird book even in a loose canon setting.

 

2. That custodian was broken in some way.

Trust me, Im actually aware of that.

 

I was mostly having a laugh. Much like the idea that the Custodes can purge a Legion. I would have thought that The First Heretic and Inferno would have popped the invincibility myth of the Custodes.

It's ridiculous. Just like a wolf pack killing a Primarch.

 

 

Completely agree. 

 

a single Wolf pack would get massacred with ease. an actual assassin squad, geared up with the weapons, intent and surprise barely injured an unarmored Primarch. no single pack could drop a ready Primarch. 

I've always took the Watch Packs to be more like canaries in a coal mine than actual executioners of Primarchs.

 

 

From memory, Guilliman was thinking he was actually in a lot of danger in that ambush, and that he was pretty lucky to get out unscathed. Still, as you've said, that basically puts a fully-armed kill-squad on roughly equal footing with a surprised, unarmoured, and unarmed Primarch. If Guilliman had his weapons/armour, he'd be laughing as he tore them limb from limb.

 

 

Similar to what happened when the pack came up against Comic Book Style Night Haunter, in the same book.

[b1soul]

Guilliman was wearing ceremonial armour...better than robes but worse than actual combat armour

 

EDIT: Or ceremonial armout might be even worse than robes...a bit of protection for a lot of lost agility. No idea.

 

‘All I can count upon is what I know as solid fact,’ said Guilliman. ‘Macragge still stands. My Legion still stands. While those two facts remain, there remains an Imperium.’

 

He pulled a mantle around his broad, armoured shoulders, and fixed the clasp at his throat. He was wearing the ceremonial version of his ferocious, clawed wargear, and carried no weapons. For his daily custom of greeting those coming to his light out of the storm, he carried no personal weapons.

 

I agree that war-plated Guilliman would have stomped the Legionnaires, possibly harder than Curze stompes the SW

[Marshal Rohr]

Of all the things to be upset about in Black Library novels, the Guilliman assassination attempt is like so far down the list it’s not even funny.

[bluntblade]

I seem to recall that Howl of the Hearthworld cast a new light on the watch packs, making them almost symbolic and the whole thing being Malcador's idea.

[caladancid]

I’m reading the book again, and at the beginning Valerian talks about what could be read as a lack of any combat experience, but he also discusses Valdor a few times which makes me think he might have been around since the HH (and I have a hard time believing every AC didnt fight during the Siege). Did I miss where he discusses age/history?