Watchers of the Throne: The Emperor's Legion

[Dagoth Ur]

That’s simply not the case at all. The Silmaril is indeed a very important artifact, but it could be the light of the Sun or it could be an element that exists in Tolkien’s Universe that emits radiation. Magic could be a inter dimensional force, manipulation of gravity, or whatever they need it to be.

 

Such ambiguity is not given in Tolkien's work. The Silmaril are explicitly stated as forged of magic, explicitly stated to contain the light of magical trees as captured by Feanor, and explicitly stated to be cursed by the Curse of the Noldor. Those are all things explicitly stated, without any ambiguity that they might be of purely worldly nature. Similarly, Magic is an extension of Eru's will, as stated in the Ainulindale, and thus is a manipulation of worldly laws through otherworldly means, i.e. unnatural, metaphysical forces. These things are clearly stated in the Silmarillion, amongst other parts of the Legendarium(I will gladly provide quotes and pages in a PM if this is required). The Sun and the Moon are literal trees, not mythical interpretations as such. The Silmaril are literal vessels for their divine light. They are already what they need to be in Tolkien's context. But this is heavily off-topic, and should have only served to illustrate my point.

 

But you can’t have a billion starving people and not have mass, crippling violence. You can bring in millions and billions of gallons of water from asteroids in the Solar System, but it isn’t doled out like Fury Road. It goes into reservoirs filled with water from months or years before. That grape might’ve been a precious commodity grown on the only world in the Imperium with the exact climate as Wine Country in our own time, and that’s whatever. But the idea an apartment costs as much as a continent? Not possible. Indentured servitude in the way describes previously in this thread? The planet would burn in constant revolution. The science of the homeostatic trends of society must be followed, even if it’s described as mind boggling. If you described Mumbai to a person born in 3,900 B.C. It would sound like the way Wraight describes Terra, but that doesn’t make Mumbai impossible. The reality of it is the human brain of even an inquisitor couldn’t understand the full breadth of just how a planet like Terra functions anymore than you or I️ can describe every facet of how New York isn’t a pile of ashes, but those underlying immutable laws of population equilibrium are permanent and eternal.

 

You can, as evidenced by the text we have both read. You are trying to analyse a world, a universe that as whole, from ground to bottom, cannot exist by any of our laws of population, society, science and nature. Of course Terra would burn if this were set in our actual universe. Nobody is contesting that, I wasn't contesting this in my post. I am contesting the ludicrous notion that one can apply our worldly laws and facts onto an impossible narrative. The idea that an apartment costs as much as a continent is indeed impossible to us, but on Terra in the 41st millenium, it is very real. It evokes horror and awe by illustrating something impossible. A dragon is not a feasible biological lifeform, and yet they feature as prominent adversaries in modern fiction. Do you see anybody running around and trying to apply the laws of structural integrity, aviation, metabolism and more to Ancalagon the Black (Who blotted out the sun with his wings and shattered one of the greatest Mountain of Arda, the Thangorodrim, when he was slain)? No, of course not, because the whole point of his impossible scale is to illustrate the danger, the awe, the world-shattering strength that he and his creator Morgoth wield, and by extension also the virtue and purity of Earendil who slays Ancalagon.

The laws of population equillibrium are immutable to us, as much as laws of temporality, physics, and so on are. Guess what, in Time's Arrow, time runs backwards with all the implications that come with it (i.e. guns heal wounds, medication causes sickness, houses are never built but only deconstructed etc.), and yet the book works just perfectly fine by freeing itself of reality's shackles. One of the fundamental laws of existence, the way which time runs, is overturned and causality is completely reversed. Why? Because that is the premise. It opens up vistas of completely new expirience and discussion topics, it offers the possibility to ask "What if?".

Gregor Samsa in Kafka's The Metamorphosis wakes up one day and is literally transformed into a man-sized roach. No ambiguity about it, the book states that he has literally become a giant insect. By all laws of reality this is impossible, and yet it just so happened in the text. Why? Because it serves as an illustration for the reader of how Samsa's life is dreary and insignificant, and how he is plagued by crippling depression. While the illustration is metaphysical for us, an allegory, a metaphor, it is very, very real for the inhabitants of the books.

Faust summons the elemental homunculus of earth in the beginning of Goethe's Faust, an actual lump of animated earth that has sentience and control over the elements. Again, an impossible thing, and yet it is there. The homunculus is a metaphor for pagan truths and philosophies that appear horrifying and yet enticing to the Christian mind of Goethe's age. Again, a metaphor, an image for us and yet reality for the fictional world.

All the given descriptions of Terra follow the same pattern. Of course they are insane and impossible to us, but they illustrate the horrifying future of the 41st millenium just aptly. They are an image for us, the reader, to visualize just how impossibly wretched such places are, just how dark the universe has become, while still being perfectly aware of how impossible such things are. Yet to the given world, it is reality, simply because it is. Otherwise we would have no reason to gape at such scenes. It is a metaphor, an image to us, bitter reality to indentured worker 74-2878467. The 41st millennium is a place beaten down by adversity, horror, starvation, fanaticism and war. It is a feverish vision of impossibility itself, a place where hell is a very real place and one has to travel through it to reach other systems. It has never had the reason to adhere to reality, it clearly shows no ambition of doing so. All human and galactic laws are eternal only to us, but what happens within fictionality is bound by no laws whatsoever (Or are you trying to tell me that Pratchett's idea of how his world is situated atop four elephants, on top of a huge turtle and traversing the void, must also be considered as hyperbole because it clearly defies physics and biology?).

Literature has always been free to create worlds that defy all that is of our own, and it has always done so, be it through accident or intent.

I can invent a world ten times as crowded as Terra and where one shack costs as much as a sector, and where all workers are slaves and never rebell out of resignation, and I can present it as fact within the given context. The mere fact that I can do this, that I can create just such a thing of fiction, and that it has been done countless times throughout mankind's illustrious literary canon, illustrates that all the laws we know and are subject to mean about as much to fictionality as a minor flatulence does to a tornado.

[Sete]

You guys are high as :cuss. :D

Entertaining to read tho.

[Xisor]

I've always been vaguely tempted with a... normcore rendering of 40k.

 

Warp travel is horrible because it's run by a nightmare bureaucracy and ill-understood technology.

 

Space Marines are awesome 'cause they've got a few daft modifications, mad armour, and guns with exploding bullets.

 

Adeptus Mechanicus are legit Space Janitors that have mumbo jumbo and power to hold on to what advanced tech they have, but the vast bulk of it is Hard SF tech, with a bucketload of con artistry and application of money/corrupt administrators in a nightmare bureaucracy.

 

Power of faith, miracles and psychic powers? Gossip, unreliable memory, fraudsters, con-artists, and willingness to believe nonsense instead of what you actually saw happen.

 

----

 

As such, an "it's all hyperbole" reading of 40k is... strangely compelling.

[Sandlemad]

As such, an "it's all hyperbole" reading of 40k is... strangely compelling.

 

Gotta admit, I do the same sometimes. A lot of the RT stuff fits the bill, makes it feel more like Dune. Simultaneously bigger and smaller, less insane baroque grimdark and more grubby hopeless dystopia. Not quite headcanon so much as a... head-heuristic framework.

 

It's not a huge leap from 'the heresy has been exaggerated to myth and legend' to 'Marneus Calgar and daemons and god-machines are exaggerated in propaganda and rumour'. "Of course Leman Russ is an imperial commander with respiratory problems. Did you think he was a 10ft tall wolf man or something?" Kind of a refreshing antidote to some of the current background.

[mc warhammer]

 

and somehow audiences accept all the above. somehow, against all odds, people even find a way to enjoy these universes

 

I've known people that unironically enjoyed Serbian Film. It means nothing to me.

 

I don't begrudge people enjoyment of any works of fiction, but neither do I feel obliged to like something just because other people do.

 

I overall enjoyed the Watchers of the Throne. I still find specific elements of it stupid. The forum serves to facilitate discussion and sharing of opinions on fiction. To lie about my subjective feelings would rather defeat the point of me being here.

 

 

i don't think anyway has been trying to obligate you? or to ask you to...lie? that's an interesting filter you're processing through. 

 

if you keep recycling the same complaint, i assume you're wanting a response each and every time? or is it a bit like the mona lisa; just admire but don't touch?

 

i get that everyone has their breaking point with suspension of disbelief, but your particular complaint makes me wonder how anyone could enjoy anything in pop culture. it's all silly

[mc warhammer]

I've always been vaguely tempted with a... normcore rendering of 40k.

 

Warp travel is horrible because it's run by a nightmare bureaucracy and ill-understood technology.

 

Space Marines are awesome 'cause they've got a few daft modifications, mad armour, and guns with exploding bullets.

 

Adeptus Mechanicus are legit Space Janitors that have mumbo jumbo and power to hold on to what advanced tech they have, but the vast bulk of it is Hard SF tech, with a bucketload of con artistry and application of money/corrupt administrators in a nightmare bureaucracy.

 

Power of faith, miracles and psychic powers? Gossip, unreliable memory, fraudsters, con-artists, and willingness to believe nonsense instead of what you actually saw happen.

 

----

 

As such, an "it's all hyperbole" reading of 40k is... strangely compelling.

 

 

that's interesting- what's "normcore" in this context? i always thought it was a fashion industry term

 

and yeah, if we want to start breaking belief; the idea of space marines modifications full stop should do that successfully. a fused ribcage? enjoy breathing mate

[mc warhammer]

 

As such, an "it's all hyperbole" reading of 40k is... strangely compelling.

 

Gotta admit, I do the same sometimes. A lot of the RT stuff fits the bill, makes it feel more like Dune. Simultaneously bigger and smaller, less insane baroque grimdark and more grubby hopeless dystopia. Not quite headcanon so much as a... head-heuristic framework.

 

It's not a huge leap from 'the heresy has been exaggerated to myth and legend' to 'Marneus Calgar and daemons and god-machines are exaggerated in propaganda and rumour'. "Of course Leman Russ is an imperial commander with respiratory problems. Did you think he was a 10ft tall wolf man or something?" Kind of a refreshing antidote to some of the current background.

 

 

well yeah, isn't part of the GW/BL approach that every and all stories are essentially unreliable narrators (even if written from god's eye view) prone to exaggeration, hyperbole and inaccuracy?

[Marshal Rohr]

It’s not just the ‘everything you’ve been told is a lie’ angle. Someone brought up Terra being a little too extreme in its overpopulation and scarcity, and our later point was take it as hyperbole instead of actual fact to make the poll easier to swallow, which opened the door for personal preferences of Blanchitsu, surrealist 40k or the aforementioned Norm-core, low science fantasy.

[mc warhammer]

It’s not just the ‘everything you’ve been told is a lie’ angle. Someone brought up Terra being a little too extreme in its overpopulation and scarcity, and our later point was take it as hyperbole instead of actual fact to make the poll easier to swallow, which opened the door for personal preferences of Blanchitsu, surrealist 40k or the aforementioned Norm-core, low science fantasy.

 

 

sure, but "unreliable" doesn't = "lie"

 

i'm guessing blanchitsu is essentially an interpretation heavily influenced by the artist vivid imagery, surrealist 40k is the audience allowing a lot of artistic licence on behalf of the creators to the point of avant guarde... and normcore is plain unisex clothing either worn by 40k characters and/or readers

 

by that i mean, i googled it and still got back the definition i always thought it was

[Xisor]

Yeah, the dictionary/wikipedia top-down definitions won't serve very well here. This is... new territory. (At least it is for my lexicon.)

 

Normcore is indeed fashion term, but is often used to represent 'very plain' things as fashionable. It's not the same as minimalist, but it's not entirely unreasonable either.

 

Normpunk might conjure up the right image. If Dieselpunk and Steampunk and Goth and Baroquepunk are all 'things', then norm-punk is really just... grey and a bit nondescript/plain.

 

In terms of 'rewriting' the setting to fit that bill, the point is that it just doesn't take much effort to flip things round. File off all the hyperbole and things work. Leave it all on and, after a fashion, it still works.

 

---

 

Incidentally, I was thinking of doing a relatively 'plain 40k' rendition of the Primarchs. Use the MkIII/MkIV plastic boxes, maybe some of the terminators, and just do the Primarchs as 'normal Marines'.

 

Their legends are legendary because they did ridiculous things (and then the stories grew legs...), but on the tabletop you're presenting them doing legendary things, hence the biased stat lines!

 

---

 

I think the other side of this, and one that I find both extremely compelling and extraordinarily emotionally draining to contemplate, is viewing 40k through the lens of existentialism. Any statement of 'how things work' can be reliably disregarded as a lie. Any statement of 'personal fact' (e.g. there are five hundred of us living in a shipping container being handed laser guns and told to shoot the green people) are treated as de-facto true - they're personal realities. And, existentially, horrifying.

 

Are orks savages who only care about war? Are the Chaos Gods enemies of all that is right in the world? Are the Ogryns genetic idiots?

 

No. Of course not. Epistemologically speaking, no character we've ever met in 40k, as it has been described, would ever be in a position to know these things in a genuinely authoritative way.

 

It's inescapable.

 

----

 

I mentioned something offhand, but it's something I've been struggling with the last few months:

 

Ogryns

 

I find their presentation incredibly difficult. There's a lot of satire in 40k, but sometimes when the edge is filed off, the cut becomes less clean, but no less cutting. In Cadia Stands, recently, there was a really touching piece with an Ogryn where it effectively stated baldly that the character had no way to tell whether they were actually mentally inferior, or if it was a product of the hate, self-deprecation and self-hatred they were indoctrinated by the Commissars. Add in the brutal horror of what we know the Imperium's capable, and you've not only got a vague allegory for intolerance, you've got outright racism. "They're big and don't speak Gothic well, obviously they're inferior."

 

I don't know, it's begun to turn my stomach 'accepting' it. If they are genuinely different...? Is that a good thing? I'm not at all convinced, so that returns me to 'they're not inferior at all - they just can't fit through the same doors or easily use the same weapons/equipment' and then suddenly we've got an entrenched bit of outright racism and, to a degree, ableism.

 

Not just questionable handwavium that we're all used to, but a sheer and difficult thing being highlighted by the very thing itself. Add to that the beastman bounty hunter previewed yesterday, and we've got some serious work to do!

 

----

 

Fortunately, that's tangential to the topic at hand. For stripping the hyperbole back, I think this whole discussion is highlighting a fairly trivial point: we all have individual, fluctuating lines for where we'll suspend disbelief. (This isn't news, I know.)

 

As pointed out expertly - horticultural science makes a mockery of some of the claims. It'd be nice not to have to do the mental acrobatics to accommodate the throwaway line, but on the other hand there will always be some detail that doesn't fit the established rules. (Edging towards Godel's Theorem of Incompleteness...!)

 

As such, we're usually fast-forwarded to either all disbelief or no disbelief. That no disbelief angle is the one where 'Eldar' and 'Orks' and 'Necrons' and whatever are just wayward versions of Humanity - with a lot of propaganda and culture associated to their depictions. More inhuman aliens? Just aliens. (E.g. Tyranids.)

 

But even at that, telling a story in it would rely on removing so many of 40k's gimmes, that you'd be telling an insanely different story.

 

It's not impossible, but for reference I think many of you would find the books Junktion, Survival Instinct, and Salvation really interesting. The Necromunda setting goes for this 'normcore/normpunk' version of things and does it expertly. Few explanations, just 'bizarre facts of life'; no-one in a position to seriously question things, only to accept.

 

They make for incredible reading, and it's something I absolutely adored in The Carrion Throne and Watchers of the Throne - a huge emphasis on 'this is how it is' and not a great deal of backflips around explaining the how/why of the matter. It challenges my intellect to accept it, and frustrates my disbelief, but my god - once I'm over that hurdle, the books are incredibly enjoyable.

[Carach]

It’s not just the ‘everything you’ve been told is a lie’ angle. Someone brought up Terra being a little too extreme in its overpopulation and scarcity, and our later point was take it as hyperbole instead of actual fact to make the poll easier to swallow, which opened the door for personal preferences of Blanchitsu, surrealist 40k or the aforementioned Norm-core, low science fantasy.

i don't get you though.

 

you even say in an earlier post that population grows with the ability to supply it. 

 

So Rome grew to immense proportions in ancient times, effectively becoming the centre of the known world at the time. and starved in the absence of constant grain supplies from the other side of the known world.

 

Terra likewise in this situation, relies upon constant feeding from trade across the galaxy. It is explicitly stated. Trade is massively hampered by the events of the novel, riots occur. full-fledged rebellion practically occurs. So how is it not following your theories?

 

Millions starving in a population of 'quadrillions', tbh even if we tone back the numbers to many many billions, is miniscule when spread across an entire planet. There are millions living below the breadline right now, in 2017. There is conflict but not apocalypse because there are insitutions for aid, law and order at work. Much as there is i imagine 100-fold in 40ks Terra. 

 

Some really silly attempts to over-analyse here, but even when over analysing its not *that* insane a scenario for the centre of a galaxy-spanning empire tens of thousands of years into the future from our present day.

[Marshal Rohr]

It’s a discussion, Buddy. If you find it silly to ‘over-analyze’ feel free to put me on your ignore list. But I’m pretty sure Xisors Post about normcore 40k was one of the most insightful alternate takes on this game in a long time. I’d hate to lose posts like that because you find it silly.

 

And you’re missing the key element of my point about population is that it reaches an equilibrium with resource input. Meaning the supply lines are resilient. A sudden shortage of delay doesn’t result in mass starvation. Only catastrophic conditions cause problems

[mc warhammer]

@xisor

 

 

• call me slow, but i don't really know what a normcore 40k would look like? my understanding was that normcore was another term for "generic." so to my mind, its bland and obvious (the gap, bonds, etc). in terms of punk, that brings greenday and blink182 to my mind. in sci fi, that seems like...anything made by the scyfy channel? probably my own inability to move beyond the original term, since i shot a lot within the fashion industry over a 5 year period.

• re existentialism; that was always my impression. 40k and GW has been a heavily postmodern work since conception, so the idea of subjectivity and "no one truth" seems part of its dna.

• the issues you bring up with orgyns and orks is common with any fantasy inspired setting these days. there's a strong eugenics theme underlying it all, where species/races have intrinsic, and often fixed, traits. and that's all sorts of problematic. try as we might, none of these fictional species can be entirely divorced from the (conscious or unconscious) real life cultures that inspired them.
   
  and i don't think there's any clean answer, though i do like your social/environmental take. that still leaves us with issues but it's good ground to further explore in 40k.

• i'm not sure what is meant by being fast forwarded to either all disbelief or no belief. no matter what medium or type of fiction, audience minds are always engaging in a fluid exchange of disbelief. in film we ignore/embrace blatantly unrealistic story telling techniques like soundtracks, cutting, montages etc and allow ourselves to engage despite these completely unreal techniques. usually we let them enhance the experience rather than fight them.
   
  on another level, ask any actual martial artist if the stuff on screen is even remotely practical and they'll laugh. same goes for any irl experts or professions. i have lawyer and cop friends who can't watch my shows because of the ridiculous inaccuracies in them that are necessary for the sake of entertainment. 
   
  then comes the narrative's ability to present people in character and work consistently with its own in-universe logic.
   
  it's less about an representation of accuracy and more of a presentation of meaning. i think the former is much less valuable than the latter.
   
  as mrdarth points out, accuracy and irl logic sometimes gets chucked out the window for the sake of fitting in with a setting's themes or to suit another narrative purpose... 
   
  ...but that's par for the course in all pop culture fiction. as long as 40k holds to its own internal logic, then it works.
   
  personally, in the case of something like grapes, i can deal with it. 

[MrDarth151]

 

 

and somehow audiences accept all the above. somehow, against all odds, people even find a way to enjoy these universes

 

I've known people that unironically enjoyed Serbian Film. It means nothing to me.

 

I don't begrudge people enjoyment of any works of fiction, but neither do I feel obliged to like something just because other people do.

 

I overall enjoyed the Watchers of the Throne. I still find specific elements of it stupid. The forum serves to facilitate discussion and sharing of opinions on fiction. To lie about my subjective feelings would rather defeat the point of me being here.

 

 

i don't think anyway has been trying to obligate you? or to ask you to...lie? that's an interesting filter you're processing through. 

 

if you keep recycling the same complaint, i assume you're wanting a response each and every time? or is it a bit like the mona lisa; just admire but don't touch?

 

i get that everyone has their breaking point with suspension of disbelief, but your particular complaint makes me wonder how anyone could enjoy anything in pop culture. it's all silly

 

 

... Because I know that it can be better? It's not like every 40k novel has those problems.

 

• as mrdarth points out, accuracy and irl logic sometimes gets chucked out the window for the sake of fitting in with a setting's themes or to suit another narrative purpose... 
   
  ...but that's par for the course in all pop culture fiction. as long as 40k holds to its own internal logic, then it works.

 

That's the problem. It doesn't. Again, this is an issue of wanting to eat a cookie and having a cookie: Either your characters are prodigal geniuses capable of achievements beyond the most brilliant administrators in our history, or they are morons who could not achieve a minor position in a third world government. It's one or the other, it cannot be both.

 

You can, of course, just throw your hands in the air and go "It happens because I say it happens, screw logic!", but that is not something we would generally call a good writing.

[bluntblade]

He's not handwaving it. He's saying it works within the setting's internal logic.

 

Anyway, there is another thread for all this stuff.

[mc warhammer]

He's not handwaving it. He's saying it works within the setting's internal logic.

 

Anyway, there is another thread for all this stuff.

the 40k i’ve known since the 90s has always been gloriously ridonkulous

 

 

irl, look at any institution: efficient in one way and complete cluster efs in others. i’ve worked for a few organisations large and small and generally that holds true.

 

it’s frustrating as hell, but that’s people.

 

if anyone here is honest about their own lives and experiences, they’ll likely find the same. the scale of it is more vast in 40k, but no less believable

 

the idea that any individual or organisation is either infallible or 100% incompetent is a greater fantasy than black library could ever create

[mc warhammer]

 

 

 

 

 

 

and somehow audiences accept all the above. somehow, against all odds, people even find a way to enjoy these universes

I've known people that unironically enjoyed Serbian Film. It means nothing to me.

 

I don't begrudge people enjoyment of any works of fiction, but neither do I feel obliged to like something just because other people do.

 

I overall enjoyed the Watchers of the Throne. I still find specific elements of it stupid. The forum serves to facilitate discussion and sharing of opinions on fiction. To lie about my subjective feelings would rather defeat the point of me being here.

i don't think anyway has been trying to obligate you? or to ask you to...lie? that's an interesting filter you're processing through.

 

if you keep recycling the same complaint, i assume you're wanting a response each and every time? or is it a bit like the mona lisa; just admire but don't touch?

 

i get that everyone has their breaking point with suspension of disbelief, but your particular complaint makes me wonder how anyone could enjoy anything in pop culture. it's all silly

... Because I know that it can be better? It's not like every 40k novel has those problems.

 

• as mrdarth points out, accuracy and irl logic sometimes gets chucked out the window for the sake of fitting in with a setting's themes or to suit another narrative purpose...

   

  ...but that's par for the course in all pop culture fiction. as long as 40k holds to its own internal logic, then it works.

That's the problem. It doesn't. Again, this is an issue of wanting to eat a cookie and having a cookie: Either your characters are prodigal geniuses capable of achievements beyond the most brilliant administrators in our history, or they are morons who could not achieve a minor position in a third world government. It's one or the other, it cannot be both.

 

You can, of course, just throw your hands in the air and go "It happens because I say it happens, screw logic!", but that is not something we would generally call a good writing.

it’s not having cake and eating it, repeating that doesn’t make it come true

 

in a real world sense, this doesn’t play out. not ever

 

in an artistic sense, it matters even less

[Roomsky]

Damn this was good. Not as good as Carrion Throne mind you, as that book didn't have an entirely separate plot ram headlong into it halfway through, but still strong in its own way. As someone who only barely followed the events of Gathering Storm, this isn't a half bad way to get caught up. While I would have liked the protagonists to have a little more agency in said GS sections, I've always liked the approach of keeping the huge players and events at an arm's length. Even if (somehow) neither of these Terra-centric books get sequels, they form an excellent duology that really fleshes out the throneworld, without also being annoying and nonsensical (coughcoughOutcastDeadcoughcough)

 

I admit my opinion of Wraight was shaken a little, as I thought Leman Russ was just okay, but after this I'm chomping at the bit for his next work, whatever it is. Bring on Warhawk of Chogoris!

[Taliesin]

There's going to be sequels to this I imagine. I know Wraight said recently that it will be decided upon and I appreciate that a new novel from Wraight in this setting might some ways off, but then again who knows what that Lords of Silence book is that we just saw a cover of this afternoon, it's not a HH book. But I would expect his next novel assignment to be a HH novel first, before we see more from this loose series, as excellent as it is.

[b1soul]

Damn this was good. Not as good as Carrion Throne mind you

I enjoyed this more than Carrion Throne. I found it more engaging with more memorable characters. Both were good, but Carrion Throne dragged a bit toward the end.

[Splog]

I finished this last week, and really enjoyed it. More so than Carrion Throne. More so than much of the Horus Heresy stuff that has made it into mass market paperback of late.

 

However, my suspension of disbelief and appreciation of standards, norms, and benchmarks in the setting hit a wall towards the end. Valerian, transhuman warrior-scholar and philosopher, with hundreds of years of study and contemplation under his belt, somehow didn't get the principle of Kant's categorical imperative? Pfft. Either there are some really weird deficiencies and blindspots in the Custodes' cognition, or... .. I don't know what. Possibly the age-old challenge of trying to portray genius in fiction in an accessible way, but this instance was even more jarring than super-human Primarchs being a bit dim at times.

 

Anyway, a thoroughly enjoyable book. I also agree with Roomsky; this was a nice coverage of Gathering Storm events from the point of view of the Throneworld, without having had to have read some of the other material.

[Scribe]

Really enjoyed this, as the 2nd of my 'get back to the hobby' novel.

 

I've been a fan of Wraights since forever it seems, and had little to quibble over as I went through this, as a fan of Khorne, I didnt mind the invasion portion, and it served a purpose to me.

 

'As horrible as this was, they didnt even stand a chance, so what was the point'. I mean its a plot point, and I dont mind some fighting.

 

Loved the little nods to other books. I hope they (ADB/Wraight/French) do more of that kind of thing.

 

All in all, I found it perfectly within the tone of 40K, as I still look for this 'change' that happened in the fluff.

[Sete]

Yeah it was alright. It was a novel to hype Custodes tho, so Khorne got the short stick as antagonists at the end.

[Scribe]

And thats fine. I mean I'm under no illusions that Terra would actually fall. :p

 

Getting set up as the fall guy as a distraction isnt the worst way to go out.

[cheywood]

And thats fine. I mean I'm under no illusions that Terra would actually fall. :p

 

Getting set up as the fall guy as a distraction isnt the worst way to go out.

Not sure if you read it beforehand, but Carrion Throne is a great companion piece to The Emperor's Legion. Very different stories in scope, but they both show Wraight's vision of Terra in all its glory.