Watchers of the Throne: The Emperor's Legion

[Sandlemad]

"If we are both direct sons of the emperor, who is it who better follows his vision, while everyone else has lost the path?"

 

The issue is the premise. The Custodes shouldn’t even be entertaining the idea the Grey Knights are on the same level as he is or as the original legions, who were hand crafted by the Emperor. We know Custodes feel contempt for the Primarchs and Legions, which would logically extend to the Chapters. We know they feel like it’s their creation process that sets them so far apart. Now, even if the studio comes out and confirms the Grey Knights have geneseed derived from the Emperor and not a Primarch (something I hope they’d never do, but you never know with the studio ) then they still wouldn’t match the Custodes level of artistry, and the Custodes would have no more reason to respect them than any other Chapter. Less so because, as I said before, the Grey Knights were Malcadors brain child and given the green light by the Emperor. Not his own idea.

 

You should read the book, it literally addresses those thoughts with all the tact and subtlety Wraight deployed in his other portrayal of the custodes in Magesterium. It's not even about geneseed, it's about their purpose in the Emperor's vision and how they fit with what that might be in M41/2, like Scribe says.

 

The custodes of the 41st millennium might know more than nearly anyone else in the imperium but they are still 10k years removed from their source. They are warrior-scholars who spend a lot of time digging into the speculum certus - the public and secret records of the Emperor's orders and speech, still interpreted and reinterpreted - and the speculum obscurus - things they infer from the Emperor, things that they believe he would have told them in time.

 

They are subject to time's degradation of knowledge but the tragic difference from everyone else is it that they know it. So yes, some of them are capable of entertaining doubt, if not succumbing to it.

 

Here, a relevant portion from Watchers of the Throne:

 

“We always knew of their existence. There are records, held privately in the depths of our archives, which chronicle their creation. We watched, ten thousand years ago, as He embarked on His last gambit. As the Great Enemy drew close to Terra, we observed the darkening of Saturn’s moon, and knew that one day it would return, its purpose fulfilled.

 

Consider what this history means. We know that they came after us, the more junior creation, and yet they were as closely associated with Him as we were. We both of us look to Him and Him alone as our progenitor, and share the same sense, cultivated over the wearing aeons, that we enact His designs when all others falter.

There are some among my brothers who do not see the sons of Titan as much more than specialised Space Marines, to be regarded with suspicion as part of that schismatic breed that caused us so much anguish in the past. A Space Marine may always fail, they believe, given enough time and enough reason, and thus they are all part of the same potentially aberrant strain.

 

Some think that. Others, and I myself have often speculated in such a vein, cultivate a different misgiving. We know well enough that they were designed as His last great weapon, fitted to an age that He foresaw near the end of His earthly embodiment. What if it were they, not us, who most faithfully embodied His final ­legacy? You will never hear one of us say as much out loud, but that does not mean the suspicion does not exist. It skulks around the corridors of Hegemon like a foul odour, faint but hard to eradicate.

 

From the speculum certus we know we were the finest and the most faithful. In the speculum obscurus there is, as always, more doubt.”

 

Excerpt From: Chris Wraight. “Watchers of the Throne: The Emperor’s Legion.” iBooks.

[Marshal Rohr]

I love Chris Wraight, but 40k is a dead setting. There’s nothing of value in it after the 8th edition and gathering storm retcons. I’ll buy ADBs stuff and the Abaddon novel of the studio doesn’t ruin Abaddon like they ruin literally everything else they touch.

[Sandlemad]

The custodes' views of the GK have nothing to do with the gathering storm or 8th edition and could have comfortably fit into a pre-Guilliman M41 galaxy. If that section of Watchers of the Throne (and Master of Mankind, a book it is in direct dialogue with) had been published two editions ago it would have worked just as well.

[karden00]

 

 

 

- Kinda a big reveal in there, as Valerian basically flat out says that Custodians were built in part to cull Astartes, once their purpose had been fulfilled. Dropping truth and knowledge bombs! I applaud the bold choice, as GW is often reluctant to conclude definitively on lore matters that have, for a long time, tantalized us. It's not always comfortable to get these conclusions, but again, I applaud the bold choice.   

 

Wait what?!

 

 

"We were different. We fought as we had always fought – methodically, precisely, falling into the

numerology of the near future and racing ahead of mortal thought. These warriors were used to slaughter,

either in the Eye against their own kind or against the mortal defenders of His realm, but we had been

made to hunt them. That was perhaps the darkest of the many secrets we carried – that from the very

beginning, from even before the Great Crusade itself, we had been prepared for this and engineered to

surpass them. To the galaxy at large these warriors were the greatest of His created weapons, the apogee

of His martial genius. We considered them only as our natural prey."

- Watchers of the Throne, pg. 163. 

Valerian's point of view. 

 

Seems fairly clear to me that this is not an opinion or a guess on the part of a character. This is presented as fact, and the author seems to be quite comfortable with laying it on the table. 

 

edit for citation. 

[Marshal Rohr]

I remember in history when armies were just there to be executed at the end of their service. Not like anyone could... do anything else.

[mc warhammer]

 

 

 

 

 

 

- Kinda a big reveal in there, as Valerian basically flat out says that Custodians were built in part to cull Astartes, once their purpose had been fulfilled. Dropping truth and knowledge bombs! I applaud the bold choice, as GW is often reluctant to conclude definitively on lore matters that have, for a long time, tantalized us. It's not always comfortable to get these conclusions, but again, I applaud the bold choice.

Wait what?!

"We were different. We fought as we had always fought – methodically, precisely, falling into the

numerology of the near future and racing ahead of mortal thought. These warriors were used to slaughter,

either in the Eye against their own kind or against the mortal defenders of His realm, but we had been

made to hunt them. That was perhaps the darkest of the many secrets we carried – that from the very

beginning, from even before the Great Crusade itself, we had been prepared for this and engineered to

surpass them. To the galaxy at large these warriors were the greatest of His created weapons, the apogee

of His martial genius. We considered them only as our natural prey."

- Watchers of the Throne, pg. 163.

Valerian's point of view.

 

Seems fairly clear to me that this is not an opinion or a guess on the part of a character. This is presented as fact, and the author seems to be quite comfortable with laying it on the table.

 

edit for citation.

the funny thing with opinion is that it often presents itself to the opiner as “fact”

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

 

 

 

 

- Kinda a big reveal in there, as Valerian basically flat out says that Custodians were built in part to cull Astartes, once their purpose had been fulfilled. Dropping truth and knowledge bombs! I applaud the bold choice, as GW is often reluctant to conclude definitively on lore matters that have, for a long time, tantalized us. It's not always comfortable to get these conclusions, but again, I applaud the bold choice.   

 

Wait what?!

 

 

"We were different. We fought as we had always fought – methodically, precisely, falling into the

numerology of the near future and racing ahead of mortal thought. These warriors were used to slaughter,

either in the Eye against their own kind or against the mortal defenders of His realm, but we had been

made to hunt them. That was perhaps the darkest of the many secrets we carried – that from the very

beginning, from even before the Great Crusade itself, we had been prepared for this and engineered to

surpass them. To the galaxy at large these warriors were the greatest of His created weapons, the apogee

of His martial genius. We considered them only as our natural prey."

- Watchers of the Throne, pg. 163. 

Valerian's point of view. 

 

Seems fairly clear to me that this is not an opinion or a guess on the part of a character. This is presented as fact, and the author seems to be quite comfortable with laying it on the table. 

 

edit for citation. 

 

 

I want to start off saying I havent read the novel yet. I just finished the Warmaster and plan on tackling this next.

 

That said, the above statement makes no sense to me. The Custodes are simply incapable of culling a Legion on their own. They lack the manpower and training to defeat a Legion on the field of battle. The First Heretic goes into this a bit, the difference between an Astartes vs Custodes, which to me was a deliberate weakness on the part of the Custodes.

 

I can read the above quote as an expression of superiority over the Astartes, but not an implied role. Maybe when I get to that part of the novel more light will be shown on it.

 

Thank you for the reply.

 

JKC

[Scribe]

They would come with additional support, but would be the muscle, to get it done I think.

 

Either way, I didn't read this as a confirmation of that role.

[karden00]

 

 

 

 

 

- Kinda a big reveal in there, as Valerian basically flat out says that Custodians were built in part to cull Astartes, once their purpose had been fulfilled. Dropping truth and knowledge bombs! I applaud the bold choice, as GW is often reluctant to conclude definitively on lore matters that have, for a long time, tantalized us. It's not always comfortable to get these conclusions, but again, I applaud the bold choice.

Wait what?!

"We were different. We fought as we had always fought – methodically, precisely, falling into the

numerology of the near future and racing ahead of mortal thought. These warriors were used to slaughter,

either in the Eye against their own kind or against the mortal defenders of His realm, but we had been

made to hunt them. That was perhaps the darkest of the many secrets we carried – that from the very

beginning, from even before the Great Crusade itself, we had been prepared for this and engineered to

surpass them. To the galaxy at large these warriors were the greatest of His created weapons, the apogee

of His martial genius. We considered them only as our natural prey."

- Watchers of the Throne, pg. 163.

Valerian's point of view.

 

Seems fairly clear to me that this is not an opinion or a guess on the part of a character. This is presented as fact, and the author seems to be quite comfortable with laying it on the table.

 

edit for citation.

the funny thing with opinion is that it often presents itself to the opiner as “fact”

 

 

With respect, good frater, I'd like to know how you interpret that as opinion. 

 

This is not a situation that we can compare to say, the Word Bearers mentioning rumors about the nature of the size of the XIIIth. Nor is it an Ultramarine guessing how many of Guilliman's primarch brothers could rival him in a fight. 

 

The way this passage reads to me seems fairly straightforward. True, the information about the role of Custodians culling marines is presented to us via a first person voice. But it is not a subjective position or statement. He says quite clearly that Custodians "had been prepared for this and engineered to surpass them." 

 

I am not sure how you judge that statement as an opinion. It would be like saying that a Space Marine's assertion that he was created by and fights for the Emperor as his opinion. In the passage, there is no indication that Valerian is making it up. Nor is there anything to indicate that he is alone in his belief. Indeed, the statement reads "the darkest of the many secrets we carried" so, it seems fairly reasonable to me to conclude that based on what is written in the text, this is a belief shared by other Custodians, though, in fairness, there is no indication of how many Custodians he is speaking for. But the context does not rule out that he is speaking for his entire order, and right or wrong (though to be clear, I dont see how this can be wrong, but I cannot claim with certainty that it is factually correct), that is how I read it. 

 

If you think the text demonstrates that this is a matter of opinion, I'd appreciate you pointing that out to me, but it seems to me the author did indeed intend for us to read it the way I have explained it. 

[Marshal Rohr]

It feels like opinion because it cannot possibly be a reality for the reasons Kjaran has pointed out.

 

Edit: needs to be pointed out again, I still love Chris Wraight

[Scribe]

There is to me, a question of timing.

 

Custodians existed Pre Unity. They were designed, and engineered, prior to the creation of Thunder Warriors, Primarchs, and Marines.

 

This has, again to me, a hint of revisionist history.

[mc warhammer]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

- Kinda a big reveal in there, as Valerian basically flat out says that Custodians were built in part to cull Astartes, once their purpose had been fulfilled. Dropping truth and knowledge bombs! I applaud the bold choice, as GW is often reluctant to conclude definitively on lore matters that have, for a long time, tantalized us. It's not always comfortable to get these conclusions, but again, I applaud the bold choice.

Wait what?!

"We were different. We fought as we had always fought – methodically, precisely, falling into the

numerology of the near future and racing ahead of mortal thought. These warriors were used to slaughter,

either in the Eye against their own kind or against the mortal defenders of His realm, but we had been

made to hunt them. That was perhaps the darkest of the many secrets we carried – that from the very

beginning, from even before the Great Crusade itself, we had been prepared for this and engineered to

surpass them. To the galaxy at large these warriors were the greatest of His created weapons, the apogee

of His martial genius. We considered them only as our natural prey."

- Watchers of the Throne, pg. 163.

Valerian's point of view.

 

Seems fairly clear to me that this is not an opinion or a guess on the part of a character. This is presented as fact, and the author seems to be quite comfortable with laying it on the table.

 

edit for citation.

the funny thing with opinion is that it often presents itself to the opiner as “fact”

With respect, good frater, I'd like to know how you interpret that as opinion.

 

This is not a situation that we can compare to say, the Word Bearers mentioning rumors about the nature of the size of the XIIIth. Nor is it an Ultramarine guessing how many of Guilliman's primarch brothers could rival him in a fight.

 

The way this passage reads to me seems fairly straightforward. True, the information about the role of Custodians culling marines is presented to us via a first person voice. But it is not a subjective position or statement. He says quite clearly that Custodians "had been prepared for this and engineered to surpass them."

 

I am not sure how you judge that statement as an opinion. It would be like saying that a Space Marine's assertion that he was created by and fights for the Emperor as his opinion. In the passage, there is no indication that Valerian is making it up. Nor is there anything to indicate that he is alone in his belief. Indeed, the statement reads "the darkest of the many secrets we carried" so, it seems fairly reasonable to me to conclude that based on what is written in the text, this is a belief shared by other Custodians, though, in fairness, there is no indication of how many Custodians he is speaking for. But the context does not rule out that he is speaking for his entire order, and right or wrong (though to be clear, I dont see how this can be wrong, but I cannot claim with certainty that it is factually correct), that is how I read it.

 

If you think the text demonstrates that this is a matter of opinion, I'd appreciate you pointing that out to me, but it seems to me the author did indeed intend for us to read it the way I have explained it.

the same way that russ’ opinion of his executioner status is not “fact”. he may very well believe it down to his canines, but it doesn’t make it incontrovertible

 

all that passage tells us is that this particular custodes believes this. it also implies that many/most of his brothers share that view. the audience can take it, leave it, or wrestle with it as they choose

[Sete]

I don't know why people struggle with this.

[mc warhammer]

I don't know why people struggle with this.

different minds work different ways- i’m not too bothered

 

maybe it would help to replace the word “opinion” with “belief”?

[Sete]

It is stated as a fact. There is background that provides proof to the fact that they have the ability to do it. It is established that they are superior creations.

They culled the TW. They can easily destroy any of the current of the SM chapters.

You can use and replace whatever words you want it still does not change the fact that they are able to do it.

[karden00]

There is to me, a question of timing.

 

Custodians existed Pre Unity. They were designed, and engineered, prior to the creation of Thunder Warriors, Primarchs, and Marines.

 

This has, again to me, a hint of revisionist history.

 

Timing! 

 

Timing does seem important, though I have a different reason than the one you seem to be getting at. Nevertheless, your point is totally taken and seems to me to be solid. 

 

At the time the Thunder Warriors were culled, how many Astartes were running around? Certainly not anywhere close to the amount that were around at the time of the Heresy. 

 

Perhaps Custodians were never meant to be capped at 10,000? 

 

I agree with Kjaran entirely, Custodians could never hope to bring down a legion alone in open war. The 'muscle' would have had to come from elsewhere, or if not, the Custodian Guard would have had to have been dramatically increased. 

 

For the record, did Russ ever explicitly say, in terms equal to "That was perhaps the darkest of the many secrets we carried – that from the very beginning, from even before the Great Crusade itself, we had been prepared for this and engineered to surpass them" that he had executed either of the missing primarchs/legions? I honestly cannot recall, and don't have my sources handy, but the claim made here in Watchers seems rather more concrete than anything Russ or his Wolves ever said. As I recall, those things were kept slightly vague, for obvious reasons. I could be wrong, but I honestly don't recall.  

 

 

Aleya goes out of her way in Watchers to comment on how Valerian had no discernible ego. This seemed to me to be the authors way of telling us that his is a trustworthy voice, when it comes to self reflection, though I wont put words into Wraights mouth, and I must concede this is my conclusion. As a character, he seemed fairly genuine and trustworthy. 

[mc warhammer]

It is stated as a fact. There is background that provides proof to the fact that they have the ability to do it. It is established that they are superior creations.

They culled the TW. They can easily destroy any of the current of the SM chapters.

You can use and replace whatever words you want it still does not change the fact that they are able to do it.

sure, plenty there to support that position if you choose to run with it. it might even be the most likely out of the possibilities

 

but just stating something as a fact, (or stating that something is a fact) doesn’t make it so

 

also, if custodes were created to hunt down astartes to extinction....they’ve ballsed that one up

[mc warhammer]

 

 

There is to me, a question of timing.

 

Custodians existed Pre Unity. They were designed, and engineered, prior to the creation of Thunder Warriors, Primarchs, and Marines.

 

This has, again to me, a hint of revisionist history.

Timing!

 

Timing does seem important, though I have a different reason than the one you seem to be getting at. Nevertheless, your point is totally taken and seems to me to be solid.

 

At the time the Thunder Warriors were culled, how many Astartes were running around? Certainly not anywhere close to the amount that were around at the time of the Heresy.

 

Perhaps Custodians were never meant to be capped at 10,000?

 

I agree with Kjaran entirely, Custodians could never hope to bring down a legion alone in open war. The 'muscle' would have had to come from elsewhere, or if not, the Custodian Guard would have had to have been dramatically increased.

 

For the record, did Russ ever explicitly say, in terms equal to "That was perhaps the darkest of the many secrets we carried – that from the very beginning, from even before the Great Crusade itself, we had been prepared for this and engineered to surpass them" that he had executed either of the missing primarchs/legions? I honestly cannot recall, and don't have my sources handy, but the claim made here in Watchers seems rather more concrete than anything Russ or his Wolves ever said. As I recall, those things were kept slightly vague, for obvious reasons. I could be wrong, but I honestly don't recall.

 

 

Aleya goes out of her way in Watchers to comment on how Valerian had no discernible ego. This seemed to me to be the authors way of telling us that his is a trustworthy voice, when it comes to self reflection, though I wont put words into Wraights mouth, and I must concede this is my conclusion. As a character, he seemed fairly genuine and trustworthy.

russ doesn’t need to state that he executed other legions to hold the belief he was created to be the emperor’s executioner. the latter doesn’t require the former

 

as a recent example of the top of my head: in russ’ primarch book, the lion is bemused when russ expresses this sentiment to him

[Sete]

Well Horus balled that up.

Old legions, they would struggle. Due to the sheer size of one.

40k chapters are just to small to contend against them.

The facts are:

They are superior to Astartes.

They have superior equipment.

It's established they destroyed the TW.

They study and know the tactics of SM chapters.

 

Can they hunt SM to extinction? Not by themselves.

 

Could they do it? Absolutely. They have the Imperium resources at their disposal.

 

Would they do so now? Obviously not. Everything's :cussed.

Primaris might be a bigger challenge.

[karden00]

 

It is stated as a fact. There is background that provides proof to the fact that they have the ability to do it. It is established that they are superior creations.

They culled the TW. They can easily destroy any of the current of the SM chapters.

You can use and replace whatever words you want it still does not change the fact that they are able to do it.

sure, plenty there to support that position if you choose to run with it. it might even be the most likely out of the possibilities

 

but just stating something as a fact, (or stating that something is a fact) doesn’t make it so

 

also, if custodes were created to hunt down astartes to extinction....they’ve ballsed that one up

 

 

I hear you, frater, I do, even if I do disagree in terms of the authors intent. 

Just so we're all clear, I'd like to know how you fully interpreted the passage?

Am I correct to assume that you read it as Valerian's subjective opinion, and do not consider the passage to be something the author intended for us to take as fact? 

[Scribe]

The Custodes, alone, would have been unable to wipe a LEGION. Yes Sete, they are a superior creation, but not TOO far above. Certainly not to a degree of 5:1.

 

If the idea was a long and mostly quiet culling...well yeah, the Custodes could certainly sleep a CHAPTER.

 

Something else to say here, just because our Custode is without ego, does not mean he would be correct in his assessment.

 

10,000 years, is a long time to get some data wrong.

[Sete]

But yet current 40k Custodes believe themselves superior to their 30k predecessors.

If anything, I want more fluff about them. The 40k ones I mean.

[karden00]

I don't want to make this tedious, or invite bad blood, but all other circumstances aside, it seems to me that the author intended for the reader to take this with a fair degree of certainty. It was not a boast, nor was it unsupported by factual evidence (the passage occurs as a Custodian reflects on bringing serious pain to a very large number of Astartes...) 

 

mc warhammer, I get your example with Russ v Lion, but I am not sure how much that should have a bearing on what is stated in the text.

 

Can we all agree that sometimes BL is deliberate in placing ambiguity, and sometimes they are deliberate in where there is none? 

 

Where in the text is there enough evidence to say that what Valerian states is more opinion than fact? 

[mc warhammer]

 

 

 

It is stated as a fact. There is background that provides proof to the fact that they have the ability to do it. It is established that they are superior creations.

They culled the TW. They can easily destroy any of the current of the SM chapters.

You can use and replace whatever words you want it still does not change the fact that they are able to do it.

sure, plenty there to support that position if you choose to run with it. it might even be the most likely out of the possibilities

 

but just stating something as a fact, (or stating that something is a fact) doesn’t make it so

 

also, if custodes were created to hunt down astartes to extinction....they’ve ballsed that one up

I hear you, frater, I do, even if I do disagree in terms of the authors intent.

Just so we're all clear, I'd like to know how you fully interpreted the passage?

Am I correct to assume that you read it as Valerian's subjective opinion, and do not consider the passage to be something the author intended for us to take as fact?

i read it as valerian’s sincere belief. i read the content of that belief as a possibility. a really interesting one

 

russ’ subjective belief in his creation loses something if it’s presented as anything less than a passionate sense of purpose. “i am the emperor’s executioner, every world i burn is for vengeance. they are condemned and we are the sanction. i think. i’m open to opinions.”

 

authorial intent is beside the point for me, but if that’s important for you: authors here have often expressed that a lot of what they write is intentionally open to interpretation. was russ created to be the executioner? possibly. did russ’ encounter with the lion go exactly as memory details it? mostly. did the emperor think of the primarchs as weapons or sons? it’s complicated

 

is alpharius dead? yep. but not.

[Sete]

I see what you meant MC. And I can agree with that point of view. Was misunderstanding what you meant.

I thought you were referring to the readers belief and not the character.

 

Well it's 4am and I need my beauty sleep. Cya later lads.