What are your experiences using CSM squads as troops in 8'th

[Mik-l]

Have you guys been running CSM squads as their primary troop choice? How have you been running them, and have you had any succes with them?

 

I much prefer them to the other troop choices thematically, thought the other troops choices might be more effective. I would like to run several small units of marines with varying load-outs. I was considering small units of 5 equipped for varying purposes. Each with a combi-weapon or plasma pistol on the champion, and a special/heavy weapon each. two squads could even share a rhino for transport.

 

I will be running a Night Lords legion, that way several small units disembarking from a rhino's could stack their leadership effects from Night Lords stratagem and an icon of Despair.  At the same time, rapid firing plasma and flamers on the enemy units in the negative leadership bubble, to force further casualties in the morale phase.

[Cryptix]

I've been running 10 man squads with double plasma and Power Sword and Combi-Plasma, they're a good supporting unit to blow a bole in enemy bubble wrap. Don't expect much and you might get surprised like I did when they started a chain reaction of exploding venoms :P

[Withershadow]

Large big unit can benefit more from psychic buffs and stratagems, although perhaps elite units are a better target for these abilities.

 

Smaller units have a larger resistance to morale, are more flexible where they go, and give you an additional Sgt. (thus extra special and power weapon). In your particular case, you also get the leadership shenanigans.

[Syrakul]

I was breaking up my Havoc ML into larger CSM squads of 10 with two Heavy weapons, so they have the benefit of objective sitters, battalion fillers, and likely holding those weapons until the squad is fully wiped.

 

multi-MSU spam benefits from deploying together in a single Rhino, getting two champs (extra combi-plasma and extra melee weapons) and some targetting shenanigans from certain enemy weapons (what used to be templates, psychic shooting and debuffs) and if you get your own buffs from HQ bubbles not missing out there either.

 

taking 3 units of 5 with combi-plasma/power sword/plasmagun and a lord in two Rhinos can be as cheap as 550? with some lord gear, a PF or so and some Havoc launchers or combi weapons for the Rhinos it can be 600 or so points.

[the jeske]

nothing csm do, can not be done better by some unit in the csm code. If they have a niche of their own, I have not been shown it yet[not that I wouldn't, having csm in a csm army would be cool]. 

[norngahl]

Guess 10 with 2 Lascannons as objective holders are propably the best use for them. The are outshined by other melee units and they are outshined by Medium range. But 2x10 with 2 Lascannons are Not as much of a juicy target as 4x lascannon havocs. In BL with Icon you habe to Focus a lot of fire to cause extra causalities.. I habe lost 40 Men blobs of renegades just due to LD Checks. 5+ or 2+ when in Cover is a totally different world. Even if you have 40 wounds, they won't last as Long as 10 plain marines..

[the jeske]

well the question is if take 10 of them you still need the same chaff and the same buff units, you would require with havocks or predator, but the 2 las came in a very point inefficient 10 csm form. They just cost too, and one unit is never enough as support goes, So you to double or triple it and then havocks/preds are just cheaper and more efficient. And you can't really advance with two las csm squads[won't be doing anything if tranported in rhinos, AL traits are as always the most efficient way to deploy our dudes, but there really are better targets infiltration then 10 csm. A few termintors are going to be just as shoty, and will work better in melee].

 

Maybe on some sort of LoS blocking table with huge walls[to make raptors worse then csm] they could do ok, but PMs and zerkers would probably still be more efficient.

[Dallas Drake]

I use CSMs in my Black Legion army. I like Cultists both thematically and in the game but I want CSMs in my CSM army.

 

What CSMs bring is a unit that can take and hold objectives effectively. 10 or 2x5 with special weapons and a champ with a combi weapon is a touch over-priced but still pretty decent. I personally think they need a Rhino, plus another combi-weapon and a havoc launcher is more good needed shooting. I've been using 2x5 man squads in 1 Rhino.

 

For Black Legion the stratagem Let the Galaxy Burn is fantastic for when you get into double tap range & can get a charge off. 1CP is cheap to get re-rolls on all hits.

[Praetoria]

In my Black Legion I have been running 3 5 man units, 2 with lascannons and 1 with missile launcher. I have found they dont really get targeted that much, as I have units that tend to teleport in on turn one and become more of a focus. Good for holding objectives, though dont stand up to being shot by a scorpius, as I found out :- /

[Galron]

I almost always have at least three squads in my IW. I have a lascannon in one squad with no other upgrades. The other two have plasma and plasma combis on the sgt and variable guys in them. They do ok. I use them as bait units and objective holders while my havoks do the actual damage.

[Withershadow]

I think the relative "meh"-ness of the basic CSM and to a certain extent even Cultists (no leadership mitigation except Apostle's +3 bonus, which is still no guarantee of not losing lots of extra dudes), means most "competitive" lists will be from one of the four main legions.  Still, at least cultists are pretty cheap at 40 points per unit, and it's not too difficult to take 3 for that battalion command bonus and then just focus on elites/FA/heavy support, taking additional focused detachments for those slots when needed.  The cultists can just be spread out to guard against deep strikes and just be disposable.

 

For example, the commonly-mentioned small units in Rhino:

5 Chaos Marines, Champion with power sword and combi-plasma, plasma gun - 97

5 Chaos Marines, Champion with power sword and combi-plasma, plasma gun - 97

Chaos Rhino, Havoc launcher, 2x combi-bolters - 85

 

That's 279 points!  For 240, you can take 6 units of cultists and be on your way to a brigade.

 

Still, it's not too terrible, that's two objective secured units, who when within 12" deliver 24 bolter shots, D6 havoc shots, and 8 plasma shots.  Without any support or re-rolls, they can kill ~6 MEQ, or ~12-13 GEQ.  If there's a lord or daemon prince around, those numbers go up to ~8 and ~14-15, respectively.  Okay, I guess?

 

Do people also take marks on these units, and an Icon?

[ChazSexington]

I think Troop choices, unless they can be taken in large, Fearless units, are a terrible choice. 

 

Units of CSMs, once they've lost 4 men in a round, will statistically lose one more just to battleshock (2 for the price of one, if you will). This prohibits the use of large, Legion-strength units. If you go up to 10, you can take heavy and special weapon, but it's effectively just an ineffective Havoc squad with ObSec. Due to the cost of autocannons relative to a bolter, CSMs aren't point effective. You can alternatively compare them with Noise Marines (whom then get Endless Cacophony).

 

If you go bolt pistol and chainsword, well... Khorne Berzerkers already do that much, much better. 

 

If you want to hold something, well, then you take Plague Marines. 

 

Rhinos can be taken by all the mentioned units, so they don't even factor into this. 

 

Unless weaponry was made 50% more expensive, I'm struggling to see why we should ever take CSMs competitively. 

[CrimsonReign]

lost the option to be swiss army marines (bolter pisol chainsword) 
marks no longer do anything 

chaos marines are back to being tactical marines, which are okay

if your detachment choices allow, havocs are always better (same cost, can take more weapons)

otherwise cult troops all got cheaper and are back to being troops for their legion 

[Excessus]

being troops for their legion 

 

This is an important fact. For their legions.

 

The rest of us will have to do with CSM, and while they're not extremely cost-efficient they do well at what they do and I love taking mine. Don't be quick to count out obsec. 

[Panzer]

This whole topic shows perfectly why I was hoping for a 25% troop requirement per army or a similar rule in the core rules. With something like that you won't have the problem of just taking Havocs or whatever instead of a proper troop unit. T'au would have to take a good amount of Firewarrior or Kroot, CSM would have to take Cultists or CSM, Loyalist marines would have to take Scouts or Tacticals and so on.

[Excessus]

Units of CSMs, once they've lost 4 men in a round, will statistically lose one more just to battleshock (2 for the price of one, if you will).

 

How does the math work there?

[CrimsonReign]

 

Units of CSMs, once they've lost 4 men in a round, will statistically lose one more just to battleshock (2 for the price of one, if you will).

 

How does the math work there?

 

ld 8 (with champ)

loose 4

roll of a 4+ is 50% chance

4+ 4 = 8 (no loss)

roll of 5+ is 33% (1 loss)

 

so killing 5 means 50% chance of additional casualties 

 

choosing which models come off first essentially means the squad leadership is 8 not 7

[Excessus]

Don't forget the dirt cheap icon to save another life ;)

[ChazSexington]

 

Units of CSMs, once they've lost 4 men in a round, will statistically lose one more just to battleshock (2 for the price of one, if you will).

 

How does the math work there?

 

 

3.5 average on a die, LD 8 on Champ. 8 - 3.5 = 4.5 

 

4 or 5 dead, and you lose 2 for each one that dies. 

 

Icon of Vengeance increases it to 5 or 6, but you then lose the ability to take the other Icons and Marks, thus possibly losing access to key stratagems, e.g. Endless Cacophony on Slaanesh Havocs.

Edited September 18, 2017 by ChazSexington

[DreamIsCollapsing]

This whole topic shows perfectly why I was hoping for a 25% troop requirement per army or a similar rule in the core rules. With something like that you won't have the problem of just taking Havocs or whatever instead of a proper troop unit. T'au would have to take a good amount of Firewarrior or Kroot, CSM would have to take Cultists or CSM, Loyalist marines would have to take Scouts or Tacticals and so on.

 

Since the begining of 8th we already got ObjSec on troops AND specific stratagem getting boosted when used on "troop" squad. And we have to get some experience with full codex army : Maybee getting 3/6 troops is worth it to get some great stratagem. As a chaos player i wouldnt dare go on table without at least 6 point (but i'm an Ec player who can fill his troops with cultist and noise..).

 

I agree, getting a 25-33% troop requirement would have been easier. Works well for HH it seems. But games is atm too worried about the frustration of some players (the ones who think an army without troop is somehow logical..) to put this kind of limitation.

 

 Long story short : The best news in 8th is the constant realignement of rules. I'll expect some bonus for troop on chapter approved.  

[Excessus]

There really isn't an average roll on a single dice roll, there is exactly the same chance of rolling a 1 as a 6...

 

4 dead and 9 Ld means you need to roll a 6 for it to be happening something in the first place...or am I wrong here?

[Panzer]

There really isn't an average roll on a single dice roll, there is exactly the same chance of rolling a 1 as a 6...

 

4 dead and 9 Ld means you need to roll a 6 for it to be happening something in the first place...or am I wrong here?

You know what's meant tho. It's not exactly the average result but the expected result instead.

But yes you are right there. If 4 die on a LD9 unit you'd need to roll a 6 before any more die. Battleshock really is not that fatal unless you have a really squishy low LD unit.

[Excessus]

 

You know what's meant tho. It's not exactly the average result but the expected result instead.

 

 

Not on a single die, you cannot expect any number more than any other number on a single die. When multiple dice are rolled, sure you can start expecting results.

 

However, you can expect to pass or fail a test, that's something else.

[Panzer]

Okay maybe you don't know what's meant. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[micahwc]

I haven't tried it yet in a game, but on paper I like a 5 man squad with plasma gun and combi-plasma on the champion. 93 points for 2/4 plasma shots. Not as efficient as Havoks, but they take up a troop slot with something that isn't horrible.