What are your experiences using CSM squads as troops in 8'th

[bozo69pd]

OK lets not even talk about the crappola 25% core rule. That was WHFB which I invest a couple hundred bucks in, hated the core requirement, and trash canned that game. Then GW trash canned that game too. I don't play HH either, I don't care for all requirements and such.

 

I think with 8th houserule that before you get any of the other detachments first you need to have a battalion or brigade.

 

I was actually doing some math at GW yesterday, and we had figured out Chaos Marines can be good if you are playing DG and you really really want MSU bolter spam. DG lets you rapid fire at 18" which is pretty cool actually. If you are fighting some T3 xenos with poor armor bolters are decent.

 

I'm not sure if you can get enough bolter kills for how many wounds horde can spam though. If that is the case Chaos Marines need a points reduction.

[Panzer]

If I wanted something like Bolter spam I'd much rather take Noise Marines for 24“ Assault3 cover ignoring Bolter which can shoot twice due being a Slaanesh unit tho lol

 

 

Also it's great that you dislike a minimum percentage troop requirement, but not everyone thinks like that and I'd argue it would be a good change for the game itself. ;)

[bozo69pd]

If I wanted something like Bolter spam I'd much rather take Noise Marines for 24“ Assault3 cover ignoring Bolter which can shoot twice due being a Slaanesh unit tho lol

 

 

Also it's great that you dislike a minimum percentage troop requirement, but not everyone thinks like that and I'd argue it would be a good change for the game itself.

Right, I agree with you. However as a mono nurgle player I refuse to touch such party happy noise marines. I was just pointing out about army restrictions that sometimes Tournament/House rules are necessary because you can't please everybody. Although I am sure as a Slaanesh player you surely try :p

Edited September 18, 2017 by bozo69pd

[Withershadow]

Nurgle loves noise marines, back when they created a psychic cacophony around them, GUO's would happily hum along.

 

But "just bring Noise Marines" is not really applicable if you're trying for at least a battalion for stratagems and you aren't playing the Big Four.

[the jeske]

why you take AL , take NM and cultists a DP for counter charge and a lord for re-rolls plus either havocks or pred section depending on points being played and your done. It is not going to win GT, but it is a valid tier 2 list, and it is not like chaos marines can do much better without trying some skew list [or being "technicly" csm ala magnus, demons out of the wazoo and some bikers being the csm part of the list].

[bozo69pd]

why you take AL , take NM and cultists a DP for counter charge and a lord for re-rolls plus either havocks or pred section depending on points being played and your done. It is not going to win GT, but it is a valid tier 2 list, and it is not like chaos marines can do much better without trying some skew list [or being "technicly" csm ala magnus, demons out of the wazoo and some bikers being the csm part of the list].

Are bikers doing ok right now Jeske? I have had mine shelved since 8th started. Cuz I could totally do Morty + bikes and zombies all day.

[Withershadow]

Bikes seem very solid to me this edition.

 

They are extremely fast with a 14" move and guaranteed 6" advance.  Their combi-bolters get 4 shots in rapid fire range.  They get two special weapons that they can fire along with the combi-bolters.  They are T5 which means almost everything in the game will wound them on a 3+ at worst (it takes like a Knight or something else that hits S10+ to wound them on 2+), and they have 2 wounds each.  They can also swap the bolt pistols for chainswords for 2 attacks in melee.  27 points per model, not bad at all.

[Panzer]

I think bikes are underwhelming when you try to use them as main damage dealer. They are extremely good to rain some S4 dakka on targets (3/6 S4 shots per model without special weapon) and since they are extremely fast&durable they are good to soak up overwatch or generally just bind some shooty unit without FLY keyword. Keep them cheap and disposable I'd say.

[TrexPushups]

Bikes check off fast attack slots for brigade seekers and give you something to score line breaker with while giving you light firepower vs back field objective holders.

[Panzer]

Bikes check off fast attack slots for brigade seekers and give you something to score line breaker with while giving you light firepower vs back field objective holders.

So do Raptors. ^^

[TrexPushups]

Raptors don't shoot as well and they are a lot slower if your opponent shuts down their jump deploy through controlling space.

 

But they have both have their place.

[Withershadow]

Chaos Bikers don't carry a bolter, so it's 2-4 shots, +1 for bolt pistol if you didn't swap it for a chainsword.

 

Raptors are alright, too.  Fearsome Visage combos well with the Nurgle Icon.  Raptors are 10 points cheaper per model, and if taken MSU can spam a lot more special weapons.  In melee both are about the same as far as non-battle shock damage output.

[Panzer]

Ah right it's just a pistol and no full bolter, my bad. Doesn't change anything about my post tho. I see them more of a utility unit instead of a beatstick unit. If I want a unit with some special weapons/okay-ish melee together with good mobility I'd go with Raptors over Biker 9 out of 10 times. The FLY keyword also helps in favor of Raptors there.

[Withershadow]

You're missing the durability aspect in there, but fair enough.  You get what you pay for.  Bikes cost almost 2x more because they are much more durable, have more shooting, and are way faster.  The fly keyword can be a double-edged sword, as they don't really have the melee capability to do much to true flyers short of tying them up and forcing them to "fall back" over them.  Lots of guns that love shooting at flying units, too.

Edited September 18, 2017 by Withershadow

[DreamIsCollapsing]

Chaos Bikers don't carry a bolter, so it's 2-4 shots, +1 for bolt pistol if you didn't swap it for a chainsword.

 

 

You cant shot a pistol with other weapons. So still 2 to 4 shots more or less special weapon. 

 

Due to the FAQ, you can get a combi-bolter on Biker Champ, getting 4 to 8 shot for a single models.. And still get a chainsword or other melee equipments. 

[ChazSexington]

There really isn't an average roll on a single dice roll, there is exactly the same chance of rolling a 1 as a 6...

 

4 dead and 9 Ld means you need to roll a 6 for it to be happening something in the first place...or am I wrong here?

It's the average result, statistically. Normal CSM Aspiring Champions have a Leadership of 8 too. I wrote that after the 4th, it's two for one

 

LD 8 - (5 dead + 3.5 average roll) = 50% chance of extra dead. After that, it's averaging at 2 for 1, with the 5th being dependent on rounding. 

 

Obviously, you can lose up to 7 without losing any more (technically), but we're not working with 1 being a statistical die roll. 

 

 

If I wanted something like Bolter spam I'd much rather take Noise Marines for 24“ Assault3 cover ignoring Bolter which can shoot twice due being a Slaanesh unit tho lol

 

 

Also it's great that you dislike a minimum percentage troop requirement, but not everyone thinks like that and I'd argue it would be a good change for the game itself. 

 

I agree - I would want a narrative and a matched play restriction. Narrative, whatever you want. Matched play would use much tougher restrictions to avoid blatant abuses.

Edited September 19, 2017 by ChazSexington

[Closet Skeleton]

I tried two units of 5 with heavy bolter and a unit of 10 with plasma guns against 4 knights. The plasma guns were okay at chipping off wounds as until the knights stopped being distracted by other stuff and wiped them out, the heavy bolter units were useless. I ended up killing 3 and a half knights and being quite ahead on maelstrom cards.

 

Then I put in 20 cultists so I could use two units of 10, one with two heavy bolters and power axe champion and one with two plasma guns and power fist and plasma pistol champion.

 

Played knights again. The plasma gun unit were a useful speed bump for a turn that helped me take out three knights. The heavy bolter squad hung back in cover and did nothing and keeping them safe probably lost me the game because an extra speed bump would have been useful. I killed 3 and 3/4 knights but lost being well behind on kill points.

 

Second game vs ultramarine and guard soup. Heavy bolter squad just hung around one board edge slowly winning fire fights with scions and ratlings that I didn't want to waste my melee units on while there was a devastator castle blasting away at me. Plasma squad supported my daemon prince and did really well, but I needed them to because a lot of units got shot to pieces on turn 1. They killed a eversor assassin, a unit of scions and a assault squad.

 

Third game vs Raven Guard Battalion the plasma squad won me two objectives with the help of warptime and shot some depleted units to pieces but mostly just chipped off the odd model. The heavy bolter squad stayed in a ruin most of the game and held up a 5 man aggressor unit that snuck up behind me and then died when the advance objective made me move them.

 

They definitely did stuff that Cultists could not have done (they had cultists around to show that) and they got me command points, which havoks would not have. Objective secured didn't come up.

 

I used 3 bikers with 2 flamers and combi-flamer and black legion tactics so they can advance all the time spraying bolterfire about. They did okay as a throw away unit but are not a 'smart' investment of the 110 points. That T5 can tie units up but that's very variable.

 

First game the distracted a knight for 1 combat phase.

 

Second game everyone but the champion died turn 1, he then survived for ages slowly taking out 2 min sized scion units and a ratling unit.

 

Third game they held up 5 sniper scouts, a landspeeder and a multimelta attack bike for most of the game before dying.

 

I was actually doing some math at GW yesterday, and we had figured out Chaos Marines can be good if you are playing DG and you really really want MSU bolter spam. DG lets you rapid fire at 18" which is pretty cool actually. If you are fighting some T3 xenos with poor armor bolters are decent.

 

That's not legal; DG only get plague marines, cultists and pox walkers as troops.
 

nothing csm do, can not be done better by some unit in the csm code. If they have a niche of their own, I have not been shown it yet[not that I wouldn't, having csm in a csm army would be cool]. 

 

Theory hammer isn't really on topic with this thread.

Edited September 19, 2017 by Closet Skeleton

[Excessus]

 

There really isn't an average roll on a single dice roll, there is exactly the same chance of rolling a 1 as a 6...

 

4 dead and 9 Ld means you need to roll a 6 for it to be happening something in the first place...or am I wrong here?

It's the average result, statistically. Normal CSM Aspiring Champions have a Leadership of 8 too. I wrote that after the 4th, it's two for one

 

LD 8 - (5 dead + 3.5 average roll) = 50% chance of extra dead. After that, it's averaging at 2 for 1, with the 5th being dependent on rounding. 

 

Obviously, you can lose up to 7 without losing any more (technically), but we're not working with 1 being a statistical die roll. 

 

 

 

And I keep saying there is just as much probability of rolling a 2 as a 4 on a single dice-roll. There is no average result on rolling one dice. 

 

If you roll two dice, the probability of rolling a 7 is higher than any of the other results so you can factor in that when calculating. But with a single dice the probability of rolling any number isn't higher than any other number so you can't really factor it into calculations like that...

 

But to each his own I guess, I won't stop you from counting like that. But the gods know I won't be. 

[WarriorFish]

I've found my larger choppy squad does well. Armed with BP/CCW and escorted by a Lord they hack their way through enemy infantry quite ably and attract a bit of attention too, all without breaking the bank :) I think I need some larger games to get more from the shooty squad as their current build of longer range weapons is just making do, I'd prefer them to be a fire support squad with special weapons (plasma, probably). I'll port the heavy weapons to a Havoc squad or two when I have some more points to play with as that's a better place for them.

[Syrakul]

 

 

There really isn't an average roll on a single dice roll, there is exactly the same chance of rolling a 1 as a 6...

 

4 dead and 9 Ld means you need to roll a 6 for it to be happening something in the first place...or am I wrong here?

It's the average result, statistically. Normal CSM Aspiring Champions have a Leadership of 8 too. I wrote that after the 4th, it's two for one

 

LD 8 - (5 dead + 3.5 average roll) = 50% chance of extra dead. After that, it's averaging at 2 for 1, with the 5th being dependent on rounding. 

 

Obviously, you can lose up to 7 without losing any more (technically), but we're not working with 1 being a statistical die roll. 

 

 

 

And I keep saying there is just as much probability of rolling a 2 as a 4 on a single dice-roll. There is no average result on rolling one dice. 

 

If you roll two dice, the probability of rolling a 7 is higher than any of the other results so you can factor in that when calculating. But with a single dice the probability of rolling any number isn't higher than any other number so you can't really factor it into calculations like that...

 

But to each his own I guess, I won't stop you from counting like that. But the gods know I won't be. 

 

Well if you said the chance to roll 4, 5, 6 on a single dice is a 1/2 chance, would that be correct? As a amateur Mathhammerer myself I know that sometimes true statistics seem counter-intuitive, so could be the case here...

so 1/2 chance of all saved, 1/6 chance of 1 model, 1/6 chance of 2 models, 1/6 chance of three models dead?

[WarriorFish]

Please take statistical discussion elsewhere, this topic is about experiences with CSM troops in 8th only. Thanks.

[ChazSexington]

Please take statistical discussion elsewhere, this topic is about experiences with CSM troops in 8th only. Thanks.

 

Acknowledged. 

 

I've found my larger choppy squad does well. Armed with BP/CCW and escorted by a Lord they hack their way through enemy infantry quite ably and attract a bit of attention too, all without breaking the bank I think I need some larger games to get more from the shooty squad as their current build of longer range weapons is just making do, I'd prefer them to be a fire support squad with special weapons (plasma, probably). I'll port the heavy weapons to a Havoc squad or two when I have some more points to play with as that's a better place for them.

 

Why not use Khorne Berzerkers? And if their role is fire support, why not take Noise Marines or Havocs? 

[Syrakul]

Fair enough.

On your point about BP/CS I have 10 man squad built with power fist and 2 meltas, with a exalted Champ. following, in a Black Legion list. The point being that in the 1250 pt games I play it feels more multipurpose that they have the capability to advance and shoot meltas against vehicles if it gains them 2D6, giving their CC attacks greater potential against vehicles/elite, and if they end up against Horde they can guarantee more attacks.

 

Ideally in a rhino id take 9 with combi-melta/power fist/meltagun with exalted with combi-melta, so they can all pop out, dish out 3 close range meltas then have rerolling 4's/5's to wound against most troops/elite or vehicles.

Edited September 19, 2017 by Syrakul

[WarriorFish]

Why not use Khorne Berzerkers? And if their role is fire support, why not take Noise Marines or Havocs?

I'm just starting out with the two heavies, the plan is to move them to Havocs in larger points as they do it better. I'm running on EC Legion rules and I want to keep the Slaaneshi theme, so no Berserkers for me. Noise Marines will feature eventually, but they were a bit up in the air when I started out so I haven't assembled anything yet. I want to run infantry heavy lists so I'm not going to be short of detachments and my more expensive units will want cheaper ones to take some of the flak so CSM will have a place to help keep numbers up.

 

All that aside, the gods GW are fickle so loading up on NM for example may fall foul of something somewhere in time so I prefer not be lopsided. Plus there is the all important fluff of my warband to consider CSM Troops feel ok to me in 8th, especially with character support, so I think they have a place as a cheaper alternative to the fancier units.

[Bulwyf]

CSM need to have the option for bolter, bolt pistol and chainsword. As things currently stand everything they do can simply be done better or cheaper for the same result by other units. I never bring CSM to games and noticed none of the other Chaos players in my area does as well.