What are your experiences using CSM squads as troops in 8'th

[Iron Father Ferrum]

 

I've found my larger choppy squad does well. Armed with BP/CCW and escorted by a Lord they hack their way through enemy infantry quite ably and attract a bit of attention too, all without breaking the bank I think I need some larger games to get more from the shooty squad as their current build of longer range weapons is just making do, I'd prefer them to be a fire support squad with special weapons (plasma, probably). I'll port the heavy weapons to a Havoc squad or two when I have some more points to play with as that's a better place for them.

 

Why not use Khorne Berzerkers? And if their role is fire support, why not take Noise Marines or Havocs? 

 

 

 

1. Zerks, Noise Marines, and Havocs don't have objective secured.

 

2. CSMs are cheaper than Zerks and NMs.  Havocs. . . see Point #1.

[ChazSexington]

 

Why not use Khorne Berzerkers? And if their role is fire support, why not take Noise Marines or Havocs?

I'm just starting out with the two heavies, the plan is to move them to Havocs in larger points as they do it better. I'm running on EC Legion rules and I want to keep the Slaaneshi theme, so no Berserkers for me. Noise Marines will feature eventually, but they were a bit up in the air when I started out so I haven't assembled anything yet. I want to run infantry heavy lists so I'm not going to be short of detachments and my more expensive units will want cheaper ones to take some of the flak so CSM will have a place to help keep numbers up.

 

All that aside, the gods GW are fickle so loading up on NM for example may fall foul of something somewhere in time so I prefer not be lopsided. Plus there is the all important fluff of my warband to consider CSM Troops feel ok to me in 8th, especially with character support, so I think they have a place as a cheaper alternative to the fancier units.

 

 

Ah, alright, getcha. I run CSMs because I stripped my Havocs and Helbrute at the end of 7th and I'm still in the business of getting them painted. I don't want to run Khorne Berzerkers, Noise Marines or the like purely due to being incredibly unfluffy (Alpha Legionnaire here).

 

 

 

I've found my larger choppy squad does well. Armed with BP/CCW and escorted by a Lord they hack their way through enemy infantry quite ably and attract a bit of attention too, all without breaking the bank I think I need some larger games to get more from the shooty squad as their current build of longer range weapons is just making do, I'd prefer them to be a fire support squad with special weapons (plasma, probably). I'll port the heavy weapons to a Havoc squad or two when I have some more points to play with as that's a better place for them.

 

Why not use Khorne Berzerkers? And if their role is fire support, why not take Noise Marines or Havocs? 

 

 

 

1. Zerks, Noise Marines, and Havocs don't have objective secured.

 

2. CSMs are cheaper than Zerks and NMs.  Havocs. . . see Point #1.

 

 

Zerks, Noise Marines, and Havocs don't leave anything alive and they are not cheaper once you take into account their damage output. Zerkers fight twice per Fight phase for the cost of 3 points a model. Noise Marines have hilarious amounts of firepower and can shoot twice (which has made Noise Marines an Alpha Legion tourney staple due to the Infiltration stratagem). Havocs cost the same, but can take way more dakka (and can also take MoS, thus firing twice too). 

 

Sure, none of them have objective secured, but take 2 HQs and 3 minimum squads of Cultists (120pt). A Chaos Lord for your Noise Marines/Havocs/Berzerkers for a delicious re-rolling to hit when you're double tapping their shooting or chopping, then take a Sorcerer for Prescience or Death Hex, a Daemon Prince, an Aspiring Champion, or a Dark Apostle... If you can ensure there's nothing left alive, who needs ObSec?

[bozo69pd]

 

 

 If you can ensure there's nothing left alive, who needs ObSec?

 

My Death Guard will always be left alive. One of my favorite past times in 8th so far is to blanket the table and laugh for hours while the Eldar allies try to shoot me down. Last month I even let the guy have a full 7 turns, and was generous with soul burst range just to give him a chance when we rolled up Relic mission. Plus with this shiny new codex I have even more powers! Mwoiahahahaha!

Edited September 19, 2017 by bozo69pd

[Panzer]

 

If you can ensure there's nothing left alive, who needs ObSec?

Pretty sure my Crisis blobbed with Shield Drones will survive Noise Marine salvos relatively well. ;)

[Mekhitar]

It's actually a pity about csm; I used to run 2 full squads of 10 with pistol and sword, double specials, and a power weapon on the champ, in every list. Right now it's too hard to justify anything of the sort... and I like infantry heavy lists.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Chaz, this is a game of dice - yours and your oponents'. Chance plays so large a part that you can't "ensure" a :cuss ing thing in this game. In 3rd Edition I once passed 23 straight 4++ saves on a Seer Council *without* Fortune.

 

Also, you can point to the cost-per-kill on Zerks and NMs, and I can point to the cost-per-death on CSMs. Losing Zerks hurts more than losing CSMs...and people will be more likely to shoot at your Zerks than they are at my CSMs. Sometimes flying under the radar is a better strategy than trying to bomb the radar.

[Closet Skeleton]

Sigh, looks like this thread will just go the same way as the previous two despite technically having a different topic.

 

 

Also, you can point to the cost-per-kill on Zerks and NMs, and I can point to the cost-per-death on CSMs. Losing Zerks hurts more than losing CSMs...and people will be more likely to shoot at your Zerks than they are at my CSMs. Sometimes flying under the radar is a better strategy than trying to bomb the radar.

That's part of why I have an okay experience with my CSM. In a balanced list they're what you have left in the last two turns.

 

All you Cultist fans are really under-estimating the value of T4 3+. Yes I've seen both cultists and CSM units vanish at in a moment but when luck is on your side CSM will survive and no matter how lucky you are Cultists will not.

 

Cultists can only hold ground you opponent doesn't actually want. CSM will on occasion hold out even when your opponent tries to kill them. Is that worth triple the points? Sometimes not; Cultists are great screens and CSM are too expensive for that job.

 

If you want to say 'are csm worth taking in a optimised list' then why even bother asking that question but if you want to know if csm are so terrible that even in friendly lists you're committing suicide by taking them then the answer is no. The line between fluffy list and mid tier tournament list is so thin right now that you can totally win games by taking quite a few CSM.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Had a squad of 10 hold up a flank relatively well with cultists dying all around them. Not too expensive either.

 

Something I am going to test on the table soon:

 

Iron Warriors could get some mileage out of a 20 man bolter-armed "Hammer of Olympia" squad, marked with Slaanesh, using a Warlord with Cold and Bitter, plus Warptime and Endless Cacophony. Combined with the Legion Trait which helps to mitigate the craziness that you will see from Blight Haulers, camo-cloaked Scouts, etc., you can wipe things like Conscript blobs pretty quickly, while ignoring Morale. Also helps get use out of Iron Without, Iron Within or Veterans of the Long War when that Stratagem affects 20 men at a time.

 

Black Legion could do something similar with a big squad near Abaddon and Let the Galaxy Burn. Word Bearers might be able to do it with certain builds.

 

I'd advise against attempting it with other Legions for the most part.

 

CORRECTION: It was a squad of 6 that held my flank, but they were in cover.

Edited September 19, 2017 by GreaterChickenofTzeentch

[Khornestar]

IMO Rhinos are crucial to enhancing the effectiveness of any power armored unit worth taking, considering how easily they're killed. Not that I've played a ton of games with them.

[WarriorFish]

I'm sticking to Marines not just for theme purposes, as Closet says that MEQ statline is solid and in number can be something people still aren't equipped to deal with even in 8th. Cultists die like the chaff they are so I'd consider them as a supplement to CSM numbers rather than a replacement, where they could probably do some good work.

[the jeske]

Chaz, this is a game of dice - yours and your oponents'. Chance plays so large a part that you can't "ensure" a ing thing in this game. In 3rd Edition I once passed 23 straight 4++ saves on a Seer Council *without* Fortune.

 

Also, you can point to the cost-per-kill on Zerks and NMs, and I can point to the cost-per-death on CSMs. Losing Zerks hurts more than losing CSMs...and people will be more likely to shoot at your Zerks than they are at my CSMs. Sometimes flying under the radar is a better strategy than trying to bomb the radar.

ok, but this an example in what favor. Neither csm nor zerkers are going to reach melee, so why would it matter which one costs more or less, if the army in the end is bad. On the other hand shoting NM kill more models then csm, and while yes losing a nm hurts more then a csm, NM can at least limit the incoming fire, if you go first, what are the csm going to do ? survive 4-5 turns of shoting while sitting on objectives ? they won't. And if your claiming that csm are the objective holders while the strong stuff takes care opponents army, if you take cultists[cheaper then csm] your having more points to spend on the strong stuff, so again csm have no niche.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

And I'd also like to point out that this thread isn't supposed to be another "CSM vs other Troops" thread.  This thread is supposed to be a discussion of players' practical experiences with CSMs on the table.

 

So let's stick to the topic and leave the arguing over theory and efficiency out of here.

[ChazSexington]

 

 

If you can ensure there's nothing left alive, who needs ObSec?

Pretty sure my Crisis blobbed with Shield Drones will survive Noise Marine salvos relatively well.

 

 

Rock, paper, scissors ;)

 

Won't fare that well against a T1 Khorne Berzerker or Warp Talon charge ;)

 

Also, I always knew there something fishy about you - you play Tau! ;)

 

Chaz, this is a game of dice - yours and your oponents'. Chance plays so large a part that you can't "ensure" a ing thing in this game. In 3rd Edition I once passed 23 straight 4++ saves on a Seer Council *without* Fortune.

 

Also, you can point to the cost-per-kill on Zerks and NMs, and I can point to the cost-per-death on CSMs. Losing Zerks hurts more than losing CSMs...and people will be more likely to shoot at your Zerks than they are at my CSMs. Sometimes flying under the radar is a better strategy than trying to bomb the radar.

 

That it's a game of dice means it's a game of statistics (and tactics and strategy). While a single Cultist with a CCW and pistol may kill 10 Terminators over the course of 2 turns theoretically, it's highly unlikely and certainly doesn't mean the Cultist is better. I've failed 3 of 4 LD 10 checks in a row 7th as well, but I'm not likely to every experience that ever again in my life.

 

And why would you even bother with CSMs? The 3 point difference for twice the killing, maiming, and burning every Fight phase is well worth it. Take them as a Vanguard Detachment with a Chaos Lord and they will statistically fare better than a Battalion of 3 CSMs and two HQs, point for point. 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

=][= I'm not kidding around.  This thread is for practical experience with CSMs, not trying to debate their merits vs. other Troops choices.  Quit it. =][=

[adreal]

When I first started in 8th I found 10 man squads with double special to be alright, nothing special.

 

Now when I started 8th I was versing a ultramarine player who also ra 10 man squads in rhinos, so in that sense they are balanced.

 

I ran a squad of 5 in a tournie recently, and they were meh, so for me, a fluffy game yeah I'll run squads of ten, they are alright, but competitively I'll leave them on the shelf

[Syrakul]

I think as long as the enemy has other more important things to worry about around the CSM, like dreads, FW stuff, preds etc the CSM can stick around.

Even if a nearby enemies shooting is more efficent killing CSM over those hard targets my opponents are sometimes still in the erronious opinion that 'anything can kill anything! Its 8th!' They take the bait and shoot my armor and waste their potency. CSM survive another turn. If CSM are in the unfortunate position of being an obvious target of opportunity then yes they get shredded.

At least with getting to select your own casualties, end of game when squads are depleted they retain their deadliest gear, so opponents must deal with them in full or have potential plasma/meltas hanging around causing problems. Another reason Ive had good results with 10 CC with dual meltas, and since BL traits have kicked the +1 LD does work to stop morale being an issue.

[Mekhitar]

What weapons do folks give csm? The one time I tried them (an early game) I ran double missile launchers and was not impressed - it felt like havocs were just better if I wanted that role.

 

Right now I run 2 squads of havocs (4 plasma, 4 lascannons), and a bunch of noise marines. I keep 1 troop slot open, usually for cultists, but am thinking of replacing that with a large unit of csm to throw forward with the walkers as distraction, denying overwatch, and locking as much in as I can. I realize the cultists do this cheaper, but for aesthetic reasons I would rather do it with fellows in power armor.

 

Do you think it is worth it to break up my plasma havocs and put 2 each in csm squads, for example? What have people run?

[micahwc]

I'm thinking about infiltrating 20 CSM with 2 missile launchers on a mid field objective tonight in a game. 20 marines with 2 missile launchers and a combi-bolter on the champion is 312 points, which is a lot. I play Alpha Legion so I can infiltrate them onto  a mid field objective for 1 command point, and anything more than 12" away is -1 to hit them.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I'd toss in an IoV too.

[Panzer]

I'm thinking about infiltrating 20 CSM with 2 missile launchers on a mid field objective tonight in a game. 20 marines with 2 missile launchers and a combi-bolter on the champion is 312 points, which is a lot. I play Alpha Legion so I can infiltrate them onto  a mid field objective for 1 command point, and anything more than 12" away is -1 to hit them.

Such a unit would also work especially well to deny reserves on a rather large part of the board. Just make sure you place it before your opponent places his Infiltrators. ;)

[Dr_Ruminahui]

I've only played one game of 8th, with a 10 man squad with plasma and lascannon.  It didn't do much - I used it as a support unit behind my lines versus orks, and due to my inability to hit and wound anything with the lascannon, I kind of wish I had thrown them into the huge scrum in the middle of the table.

 

That said, once I model up some more troops units  - some noise marines -(my army is Emperor's Children) and another 20 cultists to add to my existing 20 I don't think I'll play my CSM squad much.  Indeed, if I like how my noise marines do (I haven't fielded any yet) I may convert my CSM into noise marines.

 

Anyway, getting a game or 2 in tomorrow, so I should have a better idea of how they do after that.

Edited September 22, 2017 by Dr_Ruminahui

[Withershadow]

One of the most successful builds in 3rd edition was the 5-man las/plas marine squad spam.  Granted we can't put in that many heavy weapons, but I wonder if the proper approach to basic Marines is to bring a LOT of them.  If you compare them to elite units, they predictably fall short, but they are cheaper, and unlike the cheaper still cultists, they can actually do stuff.

 

My Horus Heresy Alpha Legion's tactical section has 2 tactical squads, a 10-man plasma support squad, and a 10-man combi-plasma headhunter squad.  I could conceivably break that up to bring 6x5-man tactical squads with a combi-plasma and plasma gun, and then have a 5-man squad with 4 plasmas and another 5-man squad with 4 combi-plasmas.  May be worth a shot as the core of an army.

 

I also noticed that Raptors are not "temporarily out of stock", but simply "no longer available" on the webstore.  New models sometime next year?

[Theis]

Just logged into the GW US Website, and they, Raptors, are showing as currently available. Yesterday they were "Temporarily out of stock." Potentially a temporary thing while they were updating inventory?

Edited September 22, 2017 by Theis

[Withershadow]

Mail order trolls snorting warp dust again.

[CptMetal]

I think MSN is the Way to go. Limits the impact of morale and gives you more special weapons due to combi weapons ob the champion. Basically 2 special on a 5 dudes squad. Or a heavy and a special.

That's the way I would play them. Sorry, don't have actual free time for years

MSU. Stupid Auto correct.