What are your experiences using CSM squads as troops in 8'th

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Yeah, I was wondering at MSN - Minimum Sized Nurgle? :P

[the jeske]

One of the most successful builds in 3rd edition was the 5-man las/plas marine squad spam.  Granted we can't put in that many heavy weapons, but I wonder if the proper approach to basic Marines is to bring a LOT of them.  If you compare them to elite units, they predictably fall short, but they are cheaper, and unlike the cheaper still cultists, they can actually do stuff.

 

the  problem with minimax is that A 5 dudes with a lascanon in csm form are not better then 5 havocks B you still need chaff so there is points being saved. C real large numbers of csm squads [6+ plus transports] make it harder to get turn 1, which means our opponents can alfa strike more often. D because there are more efficient armies that do msu, good armies are going to have good anti msu section, which would hurt an army build only around being msu.

 

Plus on a more meta side. las msu or las plas in 3ed were so good, because we could rhino snipe, and VP were being awarded in a different way then today.

[Panzer]

I think MSN is the Way to go.

Really? I prefer ICQ tho. :P

[Syrakul]

 

One of the most successful builds in 3rd edition was the 5-man las/plas marine squad spam.  Granted we can't put in that many heavy weapons, but I wonder if the proper approach to basic Marines is to bring a LOT of them.  If you compare them to elite units, they predictably fall short, but they are cheaper, and unlike the cheaper still cultists, they can actually do stuff.

 

the  problem with minimax is that A 5 dudes with a lascanon in csm form are not better then 5 havocks B you still need chaff so there is points being saved. C real large numbers of csm squads [6+ plus transports] make it harder to get turn 1, which means our opponents can alfa strike more often. D because there are more efficient armies that do msu, good armies are going to have good anti msu section, which would hurt an army build only around being msu.

 

Plus on a more meta side. las msu or las plas in 3ed were so good, because we could rhino snipe, and VP were being awarded in a different way then today.

 

A. Getting bodies on the table over Havocs is the goal here, so B, the multiple squads add up to become chaff. C with deployment in transports (2 squads in 1 transport) its one deployment. D. armies like eldar, skitarri, with dedicated role MSU like scorpions, ruststalkers etc.are often fragile (and susceptable to bolter death), or pay the points for their skills, or are not troops when it comes to detachment filling and objective holding.

Edited September 23, 2017 by Syrakul

[micahwc]

Used two squads of 5 with a missile launcher each tonight. They did okay. Did some damage to a frag cannon deathwatch squad, killing all but two. Lasted until turn 4 and held up some death watch until they died.

 

12 Cultists killed a Corvus with an auto pistol shot. Mostly they kept the enemy drop pods away from my heavy support

[Closet Skeleton]

Just logged into the GW US Website, and they, Raptors, are showing as currently available. Yesterday they were "Temporarily out of stock." Potentially a temporary thing while they were updating inventory?

 

They'll be getting reboxed for 8th ed, that's all.

[Lord Abaia]

 

 

Just logged into the GW US Website, and they, Raptors, are showing as currently available. Yesterday they were "Temporarily out of stock." Potentially a temporary thing while they were updating inventory?

They'll be getting reboxed for 8th ed, that's all.

This is what I'm hoping for. I'm happy with everything in the current Raptor box except for the 25mm bases.

[Schlitzaf]

Just to slightly derail this for a moment. I am writing up an analysis comparing Tactical Squad Variants. As Basic Chaos Marines is a one of the more notable Tactical Variants (others being Crusader Squads, and Grey Hunters. Through the post also discuss Strike, Deathwatch Veterans and Intercessors. And hopefully Cult Troops), wanted to ask for some thoughts from actual Chaos players.

 

And I want to compare/need a couple of things. 'Optimal Loadoat' (most bang for buck), the most common/'standard loadout (not most points efficient persay but the most/a very commonly used loadout). And then I will try and have a section to 100/150/200 Points for each variant kind of unit you would see.

 

(If you want an example for my Templars, Optimal is 5 Man Crusader MSU Shooty (Hvy/Spec/Spec) and Melee (Pow/Spec/Spec&Pow) and common builds will be Melee&Shooty at 6-4, and Tide 7-(5 to 7). With then a section showing the Squad at roughly 100/150/200 points).

 

I'd appreciate if I could get an example of the optimal and "common" loadouts (the 100/150/200 I'd figure I can handle on my own. Sense those are more raw stats comparison then units you'll see in actual gameplay).

[micahwc]

Problem for chaos is that everything our troops can do our elites or heavy support can do better, so for under 100 points you have 5 marines, maybe with a missile launcher. We don't spend 200 points on troops if we can avoid it because Havoks cost the same but get 4 special/heavy weapons.

[Iron Skull Mask]

In my last two games with my Iron Warriors I used two 5-man CSM Squads and a large blob (one game 35; 29 in the other) of autogun culttists (Which are great while staying in touch with an IW warlord and can later be refilled and teleported via stratagem). I think you need troops to get the batallion for those extra 3 Command Points. Stratagems are pretty important for CSM imo. Be it having your artillery helbrute or havocs fire twice, refilling and teleporting your cultists, swaping smite for death curse (or sth else) or casting an additional spell or just your occasional reroll that might change everything. 

 

So what did I do with my CSM? In one game I armed both squads with a lascannon and a combi-flamer and put them in Rhinos with havoc launchers (pretty good this edition). They happened to hang around in my own deployment zone and fire their lascannons. While I wasn't too happy with that, it was OK. A lascannon can do some decent damage. In the second game I armed one squad with a melter and a combi-melter and put them in a Dreadclaw, together with 5 Berserkers. I then used them for a backfield deep strike assault, forcing my opponent to move some of his units back the way they had come to deal with it. I wasn't too happy with the result. I should have deep struck them near his Monolith or put them in a Rhino driving the melter-squad close to the Mono. The other squad I armed with a single lascannon to fire from the backfield.

 

In my opinion 5-man squads are still the way to go, as they are quite cheap and can pack some decent firepower due to being allowed to take a heavy weapon again, or when armed with a plasma or melter and a combi-weapon of the same sort. They are pretty much as survivable as last edition, but when riding in Rhinos and teamed up with other units, they can do quite some damage. Melters can blow up vehicles, while plasma effectivly kills power armored enemies (even more reliably than last edition, if you don't supercharge them). I also still like the Idea of arming them with a rocket launcher and a flamer-combi. This makes them very flexible and allows them to threaten any target. CSM can never go up against a hard target alone and should always fight together with other units. Of course they now can wrestle objectives from non-obsec units again, as that rule has returned, which also makes them a bit more useful. (On a side note, I don't think the Icon is worth it for 5 guys and to be honest, not even for ten, since a decent opponent will always try to concentrate enough firepower on one unit until enough damage is inflicted to kill it either on the spot or with the morale check). 

Edited September 27, 2017 by Iron Skull Mask

[Panzer]

So what did I do with my CSM? In one game I armed both squads with a lasgun and a combi-flamer and put them in Rhinos with havoc launchers (pretty good this edition). 

I bet they weren't too happy to get just a Lasgun instead of their usual Bolter. :P

[Iron Skull Mask]

[Schlitzaf]

Actually having other units be better, Havocs/Chosen/Raptors vs Chaos Marines is actually part of the point of the comparison, how much more efficient does it come out to be. Also the 100/150/200 points are less about units more of a vague sense assuming reasonable upgrade count, how many attacks can you expect out of those intervals. Those points are not about units you actually take but more about how the other units will compare at their optimal loadout vs x point of equivalent units

[Angmarred]

I've been running 2 5 man squads with Flamer/Chainaxe in a rhino. They basically roll up next to my Berserkers in a second think and be a nuisance. They can do a little bit of damage to try and bail out he Zerks. They can charge a scary dread or tank to take it out for a few turns. They need to be addressed at some point because of ObSec. I mostly bring them for "fluff" reasons but have been pleasantly surprised with their effectiveness

[CptMetal]

Chain axes? On normal chaos Marines?

 

Is that possible?

[Panzer]

No, no it's not. ^^

[Closet Skeleton]

Chain axes are on the champion equipment list. So its more likely than CSM with lasguns at least.

[Galron]

With my Iron Warriors, I am planning on giving the 20 and their lord riding in a Spartan a spin. I have the models already painted and built from 30k so it isn't like I have to build anything special to give it a go. due to points I am filling the other 2 required troops with cultist scum, mostly to bubble wrap my renegade artillery park. A pair of havoc squads with MLs and a Dorrito dread complete the army so it has a fairly small body-count.

 

As much as it pains me to give a Mark to my undivided marines, I will make them mark of Slaanesh so I can double tap their bolters like their old Pride of the Legion ability. Especially potent with the lord standing there letting them reroll 1s to hit. I think off hand there is a stratagem letting me reroll 1s to wound if I remember right. So that one turn of shooting will be nasty for someone.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

+1 to wound rolls, actually. Veterans of the Long War. Edited September 25, 2017 by Iron Father Ferrum

[chillin]

In my BL army csm are pretty good. Ld 9 and when you use the BL stratagem on them, they reroll ALL failed hits, not just the 1's.

[chillin]

I run them 1 of 3 ways

* 5 man - special weapon

* 10 man bolters - 2 plaz, champ with plaz pistol

* 10 man bp&cs - 2 melts, champ with 2 CS

Edited September 26, 2017 by chillin

[Schlitzaf]

Thanks on everyone's answer, time permitting, I hope to have the post in 2-3 weeks! Thanks again

[micahwc]

I think perhaps the most efficient use of chaos marines as troops is 2 groups of 5 chaos marines, with a plasma gun and a combi-plasma on the champion. It compares to a group of 10 havoks with 4 plasma guns. 10 Havoks with 4 plasma guns is 182 points, or 197 if you add a combi-plasma on the champion. 2 groups of 5 marines with plasma and combi-plasma is 186. So 4 more points than the 4 plasma Havok squad, and it uses up 2 of your required troop slots. I'll try it out tonight and report back on how well it works.

 

I've had good luck running them in a 5 man group with a missile launcher. They are relatively survivable as no one wants to waste too much firepower on 5 marines, and a missile launcher is useful.

[Panzer]

I think perhaps the most efficient use of chaos marines as troops is 2 groups of 5 chaos marines, with a plasma gun and a combi-plasma on the champion. It compares to a group of 10 havoks with 4 plasma guns. 10 Havoks with 4 plasma guns is 182 points, or 197 if you add a combi-plasma on the champion. 2 groups of 5 marines with plasma and combi-plasma is 186. So 4 more points than the 4 plasma Havok squad, and it uses up 2 of your required troop slots. I'll try it out tonight and report back on how well it works.

 

I've had good luck running them in a 5 man group with a missile launcher. They are relatively survivable as no one wants to waste too much firepower on 5 marines, and a missile launcher is useful.

The difference here tho is that you don't have to take a unit of 10 Havocs. You could just take 2x5 with 4 Plasma each for few more points. Also a unit with 4 Plasma is better than two units with 2 Plasma each since benefits better from unit buffs like the Slaanesh Stratagem or VotLW or psychic powers.

I agree that it's a good use for Chaos Marines if you really want them or have to take them for some reason, tho it still falls short compared to Havocs.

[Angmarred]

Chain axes? On normal chaos Marines?

 

Is that possible?

No, no it's not. ^^

On the champion. For 1 point I love it as an upgrade.