What are your experiences using CSM squads as troops in 8'th

[CrankyOldITGuy]

 

Chain axes? On normal chaos Marines?

 

Is that possible?

No, no it's not. ^^

On the champion. For 1 point I love it as an upgrade.

 

Anyone have any experience with axe + chainsword or dual chainsword champs?

 

Looking myself at a pair of 5 man squads squeezed into a rhino with a flamer each and one of the load outs above on the champs. Riding up beside a a second rhino full of berzerkers with a dark apostle (renegades legion if it helps).

[the jeske]

Well csm shouldn't be doing melee, so it is waste of point on them. For berzerkers It is ok, although personaly I would rather give the champ something with more hiting power. But if there are points problems, it is a valid load out for zerker asp champions.

[CptMetal]

The only thing with more hitting power is another Berzerker. I'd love to see a Berzerker wielding champion!

[Angmarred]

Csm are objective takers. At some point they're going to get charged. I have found flamer plus chain axe on the champ to be a nice cheap loadout

[Panzer]

The best objective takers tho are cheap ones who are immune to morale or simply by killing any contesting unit the opponent may have placed there. As we all know, death is the best debuff effect.

[bozo69pd]

Considering objectives capture is counted by first Objective Secured, then quanity of models, that makes me think MSU 5 man squads are basically a waste unless that is not their primary purpose. I would never consider a Chaos Marine squads primary purpose to be damage output either. Gonna have to take them in hordes boys.

[Azekai]

Considering objectives capture is counted by first Objective Secured, then quanity of models, that makes me think MSU 5 man squads are basically a waste unless that is not their primary purpose. I would never consider a Chaos Marine squads primary purpose to be damage output either. Gonna have to take them in hordes boys.

I think you take things like cultists or poxwalkers in hordes for your objective holding, and you use small units of CSM in a more elite role. Just taking more expensive bodies so you can contest against cheaper hordes seems like a losing proposition. The CSM squads are for damage and easy troop slots, and the large units of chaff are there to contest/die usefully.

[bozo69pd]

 

Considering objectives capture is counted by first Objective Secured, then quanity of models, that makes me think MSU 5 man squads are basically a waste unless that is not their primary purpose. I would never consider a Chaos Marine squads primary purpose to be damage output either. Gonna have to take them in hordes boys.

I think you take things like cultists or poxwalkers in hordes for your objective holding, and you use small units of CSM in a more elite role. Just taking more expensive bodies so you can contest against cheaper hordes seems like a losing proposition. The CSM squads are for damage and easy troop slots, and the large units of chaff are there to contest/die usefully.

 

Yup. However I think with our CSM dex and stratagems I could make a blob Chaos Marine army wielding chainswords supported by Daemon Princes, Exalted Champion, and Dark Apostle that would put up a pretty good scrap against Orks, Necrons, Nids, and Dark Eldar. Just because it is one of the weakest units in our Codex, doesn't mean you can't have a fun balanced game against some of the weaker armies right now.

 

Sometimes people want to play with their gimpy armies without crying because they see God Mode across the table.

Edited September 28, 2017 by bozo69pd

[Panzer]

 

 

Considering objectives capture is counted by first Objective Secured, then quanity of models, that makes me think MSU 5 man squads are basically a waste unless that is not their primary purpose. I would never consider a Chaos Marine squads primary purpose to be damage output either. Gonna have to take them in hordes boys.

I think you take things like cultists or poxwalkers in hordes for your objective holding, and you use small units of CSM in a more elite role. Just taking more expensive bodies so you can contest against cheaper hordes seems like a losing proposition. The CSM squads are for damage and easy troop slots, and the large units of chaff are there to contest/die usefully.

 

Yup. However I think with our CSM dex and stratagems I could make a blob Chaos Marine army wielding chainswords supported by Daemon Princes, Exalted Champion, and Dark Apostle that would put up a pretty good scrap against Orks, Necrons, Nids, and Dark Eldar. Just because it is one of the weakest units in our Codex, doesn't mean you can't have a fun balanced game against some of the weaker armies right now.

 

Sometimes people want to play with their gimpy armies without crying because they see God Mode across the table.

 

If you think Orks, Necrons, Nids and Dark Eldar count as one of the weaker armies right now, try play Blood Angels or T'au with their current rules. :D

[bozo69pd]

People in my area sold those dumpster armies long ago sfPanzer lol. I think Tau will be decent again when they get their codex though.

[Panzer]

Yeah I'm pretty sure that every army will be at least decent once they get their Codex.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

I played against necrons this past WE with my chaos - first game they essentially tabled me in 2 turns, second game they wiped out most of my units while I took out a unit of scarabs.  They certainly didn't seem underpowered to me.

[tdemayo]

I use them pretty much the same as in previous editions. I'm partial to squads of 10, with bolters, two plasmas, in a rhino with a havok launcher. Maybe a cc weapon or combi for the champ. Yeah, it's sorta mediocre at everything, but it's cheap, fairly durable, has long and short range capablity, mobility and armored protection. Two or more squads jumping out and overlapping rapid fire onto something makes a reasonably effective counter strike against many units. Sometimes it's good just to have more power armored bodies on the field. Weight of numbers can win games. (Cultists are cheaper but they die a lot faster too. Sometimes you want squishy and sometimes you need crunchy.) Edited September 28, 2017 by tdemayo

[Sheesh Mode]

Considering objectives capture is counted by first Objective Secured, then quanity of models, that makes me think MSU 5 man squads are basically a waste unless that is not their primary purpose. I would never consider a Chaos Marine squads primary purpose to be damage output either. Gonna have to take them in hordes boys.

My experience does not match your assumption. 5 Chaos Space Marines armed with a powersword and flamer, mounted in a rhino are good for flank deployment and objective control. Marines are strong enough to force an opponent to dedicate some portion of power to actually kill them all which means they are not shooting at your heavier units. Furthermore, attacking the flanks means your opponent will need to consider them in their game plan as ignoring a marine and a rhino can result in dead Devastators, or distracted landraiders. 

 

Players simply need to be more creative in their use of Chaos Space Marines rather than assuming arithmetic is sufficient.

[the jeske]

ok, but that is true when, when you play against a marine army that is using rhinos msu and not razorbacks. And it has to have 0 alfa strike[what only happens in case of gunlines] power, because with csm msu squads your support section will not be protected [or the points have to come from somewhere, so maybe the support isn't as strong, or there is no counter unit or the army plays without some sort of caster etc].

 

But w40k is not made out of marines only. Swarm nids are doing alt right. IG are great and getting a new codex. Demons are still strong.

Against those armies a 5 man flamer power weapon csm squads doesn't do much.

 

 

also on a separate note. Flamers ?

[Excessus]

Because the enemy squads will always be at full power, right? :P

[adreal]

I think we can all agree that csm squads are not powerhouses, they can do some things okay, but we either have cheaper options (cultists) or better (havocs). Its a shame, but moving away from the standard CAD or the formations have given us little need for csm competitively.

 

I like the idea of csm squads, and in narrative games or at a games workshop store, I'll use them, but i have a semi competive club that I game at, csm get left behind, which is a shame.

 

Maybe making them cheaper might work out, but that might upset the balance games workshop is trying to achieve

[bozo69pd]

I think we can all agree that csm squads are not powerhouses, they can do some things okay, but we either have cheaper options (cultists) or better (havocs). Its a shame, but moving away from the standard CAD or the formations have given us little need for csm competitively.

 

I like the idea of csm squads, and in narrative games or at a games workshop store, I'll use them, but i have a semi competive club that I game at, csm get left behind, which is a shame.

 

Maybe making them cheaper might work out, but that might upset the balance games workshop is trying to achieve

I was thinking of running big hordes of them again, and how Abaddon or an IW warlord have a ignore moral bubble. Does anyone know does this bubble work for other legions too, or only Black Legion/Iron Warrior?

 

Another thing I was thinking about with CSM is you are basically taking them for power armor and bolters. Death Guard legion trait buffs rapid fire range to 18" which could be useful if you just want lots of bolter shots to whittle at more infantry. I know most people would say JUST BRING PLAGUE MARINES, but do you think there would ever be a time where you actually wanted more bolter shots?

[Closet Skeleton]

Death Guard can't take regular CSM, only Plague Marines, Cultists and Pox Walkers.

 

Abaddon's immune to morale aura works on everyone but his reroll hits one only works on Black Legion so that doesn't matter much.

 

IW warlord trait only works on IW.

[CptMetal]

Does it work on iron warriors cultists too?

[bozo69pd]

Does it work on iron warriors cultists too?

Yes.

 

 

Death Guard can't take regular CSM, only Plague Marines, Cultists and Pox Walkers.

 

Abaddon's immune to morale aura works on everyone but his reroll hits one only works on Black Legion so that doesn't matter much.

 

IW warlord trait only works on IW.

Darn did not notice that about DG. Well IW flying DP with exoskeleton supported by IW fearless marines may not be so bad against certain armies. Too bad his bubble is only 6" though (Abaddons is 12")

[Stross]

The more I play, the more I dissapointed with csm squads. But I feel more regret about Chosen guys. They just normal csm, who can carry more weapon, like Havocs, but that is it! No invulnarable, no special abilities, they can't even carry both melee and ranged weapon. And they cost 19 points each. 

The only thing I can use them: to give them combi-flamers and use against hordes. 10D6 avtohit shots - it is monstrous!

Maybe Chosen unit could be more reliable a bit, if it was Troops in Black Legion like in 7'th edition. 

As for normal csm... Alpha legion can make them a bit more reliable (-1 to hit, appearance all around in the map). Fabius can buff them. 

And they MUST play against loyalist in hand to hand, because without DTFE they can do even less,  even with two chainswords or lightning claws (I didn't find that it is forbidden to give them pair of them) with Dark Apostle behind them. 

As for Chosen once again. I gave them pair of claws and move them into genesteales. Each now cost 31 point. Genestealers cost 15 or 12, depends on type. And they STILL could not kill them, even charging first, having decent rolls, having Dark Apostle behind them, reroll for wounds and 3-4 attacks. This is how bad it is. 

[Paradigm]

I've had pretty decent luck with chosen and more with havocs. But the regular marine squads are hopelessly outclassed this edition. The first few games I played they did ok. But after playing quite a few more, I stopped taking them altogether. They don't have enough firepower, staying power, or mobility to be truly useful in most games.

 

I wish they could take something with precision shooting then they'd be in every list. Too bad the daemon-eye bolter isn't a thing on the tabletop.

[Sheesh Mode]

The Chaos Space Marines are meant to be cheap and durable attackers for objectives. I use stratagems liberally and thus am willing to sacrifice power for adaptability. I find the argument against Chaos Space Marines is typically one of poor comparison as it attempts to compare units with different roles and identify how Chaos Space Marine troops can accomplish a role they are not specialized for. This is identical to the 7th edition debates regarding Sternguard and Tactical Marines which were clearly built to do different things. 

I regularly field a Black Legion Blitzkrieg, and Chaos Space Marine squads form the flanks of my advance. They force my opponent's attention by being durable and threatening enough to pose a threat if allowed to move behind the enemy line. Yet, are affordable enough that I can aim them towards objectives and contest them against comparable points of disposable infantry. Chaos Space Marines are built to hold what I have gained and survive j u s t long enough for me to benefit. Losing the miniatures is irrelevant if I have won.

[Paradigm]

That seems like an outside the box way to use them, typically I'd put a strong unit on the flank and use the marines to hold the line while the more dangerous unit pulls attention, or walks the line, so to speak, if the marines get the attention. That's how I usually do things with my Night Lords. Cultists all over midfield, taking objectives, and something big and dangerous on a flank to force their attention. An Achilles with plasma havocs inside lately, supported by vindicator laser destroyers or bikers or both. I deepstrike raptors in to take some pressure off both parts of the army and/or cripple anything that can reliably handle the Achilles.

 

A strong center with weaker but still dangerous flank seems like an interesting way to use them. You still take the havoc rhinos or switch to combi?

 

I admit, it isn't always comparing apples to apples with CSM, but the issue is usually that the CSM don't have a strong role. They have obsec, but so do cultists, they can take specials but so can havocs, they can be choppy, but arent very choppy. Idk. I get that you've made them work for you, and I appreciate that, there is just always a hole in my list when I take them. When I was taking marines instead of cultists, they'd do more damage, but there just wasn't enough bodies to make them last long enough to matter.

 

I am interested to hear more about what you are doing with them, though. Using them on the flank might be a better option it'd certainly reduce the amount of fire they draw.