Traitor Primaris Chapter Selection

[Icarus1138]

Let's say the new Lord Commander has decided to try sponsoring a single new chapter of Primaris marines made from "traitor" gene-seed as a test case, and you're assigned to select the legion to be used. Which of the 9 do you use, and why?

 

Things to consider: Which would potentially provide the most benefit? Which could function best in a very suspicious Imperium? Which would be the least likely to cause incidents? For the purposes of this question, assume the chapter knows its origins and history, but doesn't initially share the culture of their parent legion.

[Kinstryfe]

III - Inbuilt geneseed degradation issues. Pass.

IV - High success rate. Relatively low rate of mutation. Possible.

VIII - Low rate of mutation, common psychological issues potentially related to geneseed psychic potential. Pass.

XII - High rate of inherent aggression, even before reunification with Primarch. Minimal inherent flaws Possible.

XIV - High durability, minimal inherent flaws. Possible.

XV - Extremely high rate of geneseed failure. Hard Pass.

XVI - Stable geneseed, no inherent flaws aside from high rate of facial conformity. Possible.

XVII - Stable geneseed, extremely high rate of conformity to spiritual influence. Extremely stubborn in the face of ideological conflict.

XX - Medium stability and rate of mutation. Less pure than IV, VIII strains at minimum. Minimal benefits, redundant as most Astartes are secretly XX operatives.

 

I would cut out the IIIrd, XVth, XVIth, and XXth to start. Two lineages are prone to degradation, one is less pure than other safer alternatives, and I can't imagine any circumstance where the Imperium would risk using the XVIth. The VIIIth could have certain applications, but the tendency toward presience is a wildcard that may make them a bad choice for a first experiment. The XIIth and XIVth both have inherent skills, aggression and durability, that could be extremely valuable in Primaris Marines, and either would be a fine source for a first test. The XVIIth get special mention as they would make ideal Astartes operating with emphasis on the Imperial Cult, and could make particularly effective crusaders. Ultimately though, I would have to go with the IVth. They performed well pre-unification in a variety of circumstances, have high implantation success rate, and an average rate of mutation, with minimal inherent flaws in the geneseed.

[Cryptix]

III - Inbuilt geneseed degradation issues. Pass.

IV - High success rate. Relatively low rate of mutation. Possible.

VIII - Low rate of mutation, common psychological issues potentially related to geneseed psychic potential. Pass.

XII - High rate of inherent aggression, even before reunification with Primarch. Minimal inherent flaws Possible.

XIV - High durability, minimal inherent flaws. Possible.

XV - Extremely high rate of geneseed failure. Hard Pass.

XVI - Stable geneseed, no inherent flaws aside from high rate of facial conformity. Possible.

XVII - Stable geneseed, extremely high rate of conformity to spiritual influence. Extremely stubborn in the face of ideological conflict.

XX - Medium stability and rate of mutation. Less pure than IV, VIII strains at minimum. Minimal benefits, redundant as most Astartes are secretly XX operatives.

 

I would cut out the IIIrd, XVth, XVIth, and XXth to start. Two lineages are prone to degradation, one is less pure than other safer alternatives, and I can't imagine any circumstance where the Imperium would risk using the XVIth. The VIIIth could have certain applications, but the tendency toward presience is a wildcard that may make them a bad choice for a first experiment. The XIIth and XIVth both have inherent skills, aggression and durability, that could be extremely valuable in Primaris Marines, and either would be a fine source for a first test. The XVIIth get special mention as they would make ideal Astartes operating with emphasis on the Imperial Cult, and could make particularly effective crusaders. Ultimately though, I would have to go with the IVth. They performed well pre-unification in a variety of circumstances, have high implantation success rate, and an average rate of mutation, with minimal inherent flaws in the geneseed. 

Little problem with the World Eaters, they only got aggressive with Angron and the Butcher's Nails - before that, they were like tamer Space Wolves. (if I had to make a comparison) Its one of the interesting points of the heresy, the Vlka Fenryka and the Warhounds were on the same scale of savagery but in different directions - the Wolves started out as mutated savages and became ordered warriors with the arrival of Russ and the stabilization of their geneseed, while the World Eaters were ordered warriors with a slight tendency towards close combat but when the Butcher's Nails were implanted they became, well, frothing berserkers :P

[Kinstryfe]

Ah, the stuff I'd read gave me the impression that they were still CC inclined, which would still be useful if making a chapter of hounds. If that's not the case, then change my opinion to "ok choice, but don't offer anything special".

20 years of ever-changing lore on the heresy tends to sometimes leave the ole brain a lil mixed up.

[Cryptix]

Ah, the stuff I'd read gave me the impression that they were still CC inclined, which would still be useful if making a chapter of hounds. If that's not the case, then change my opinion to "ok choice, but don't offer anything special".

20 years of ever-changing lore on the heresy tends to sometimes leave the ole brain a lil mixed up.

I said Tamer Space wolves, not the bloody Limping Fists :P

 

And besides, pretty much every Space Wolf was a proto-Wulfen then so...

[Kizzdougs]

As much as I dislike the Primaris Marines I'll bite...

 

III - Inbuilt geneseed degradation issues. Pass. The damage/sabotage to the III Legion geneseed was repaired once they were reunited with the Primarch (unless there is something in the 40k fluff to say otherwise (I only really concern myself with 30k fluff these days)). Only slight mutations such as occasional albinism and violet eyes remained (so no worse than the Raven Guard, Salamanders etc.). Of course I'm pretty biased, but I recon that III Legion geneseed would be a perfectly viable choice.
IV - High success rate. Relatively low rate of mutation. Possible. This would probably be my vote after the III. 
VIII - Low rate of mutation, common psychological issues potentially related to geneseed psychic potential. Pass. Agree.
XII - High rate of inherent aggression, even before reunification with Primarch. Minimal inherent flaws Possible.Agree.
XIV - High durability, minimal inherent flaws. Possible. Agree.
XV - Extremely high rate of geneseed failure. Hard Pass. Avoid at all cost! Ps. How does this work with the Blood Ravens if they are actually a XV Legion derivative? Is there geneseed corrupted by Tzeentch?
XVI - Stable geneseed, no inherent flaws aside from high rate of facial conformity. Possible. A strong contender, but unlikely because they were the Warmaster's Legion.
XVII - Stable geneseed, extremely high rate of conformity to spiritual influence. Extremely stubborn in the face of ideological conflict. Possible, but there are better options.
XX - Medium stability and rate of mutation. Less pure than IV, VIII strains at minimum. Minimal benefits, redundant as most Astartes are secretly XX operatives. I recon that XX geneseed would be a perfectly viable option. Before the Heresy they were described taller than the warriors of other Legions, and I don't remember them having any defects or mutations to their geneseed. Of course we know next to nothing about the XX geneseed there could be some hidden fault or characteristic that we're not aware of.

 

Also, I recon it would be a terrible idea for the new Chapter to be aware of their Traitor origins...

Edited September 19, 2017 by Kizzdougs

[Kinstryfe]

To the above, 40k IIIrd Legion geneseed at least is highly degraded, to the point where Bile had to figure out a way to splice in the Canis Helix to stabilize or repair some of the damage. I make the assumption that if the other chaos aligned legions are still possessing stable geneseed, the IIIrd was likely more prone to mutation over time. It's also possible that it's entirely the results of their own tinkering, but if I'm making the call based on unclear causes, I'd err on the side of caution.

 

Blood Ravens as stable 1kSons, I don't have an explanation for. Maybe they were far away enough from Ahriman's rubric that it worked as intended for them?

 

XXth, to my knowledge, have never had huge flaws in their geneseed other than being a little tall for Marines. They are known to have chaos-inspired mutations that they cultivate and cover to reveal in combat for shock value. I agree that they are likely an ok candidate. The only thing that would concern me with our out-of-universe knowledge is knowing that they can do the whole blood transference of memories thing with their Primarchs, which could get weird in the right circumstances. Still, I'd say they're a much better candidate than several legions, but I'd still probably choose from a couple other legions first.

[Kizzdougs]

To the above, 40k IIIrd Legion geneseed at least is highly degraded, to the point where Bile had to figure out a way to splice in the Canis Helix to stabilize or repair some of the damage. I make the assumption that if the other chaos aligned legions are still possessing stable geneseed, the IIIrd was likely more prone to mutation over time. It's also possible that it's entirely the results of their own tinkering, but if I'm making the call based on unclear causes, I'd err on the side of caution.

 

Blood Ravens as stable 1kSons, I don't have an explanation for. Maybe they were far away enough from Ahriman's rubric that it worked as intended for them?

 

XXth, to my knowledge, have never had huge flaws in their geneseed other than being a little tall for Marines. They are known to have chaos-inspired mutations that they cultivate and cover to reveal in combat for shock value. I agree that they are likely an ok candidate. The only thing that would concern me with our out-of-universe knowledge is knowing that they can do the whole blood transference of memories thing with their Primarchs, which could get weird in the right circumstances. Still, I'd say they're a much better candidate than several legions, but I'd still probably choose from a couple other legions first.

Regarding the Emperor's Children gene-seed: Yeah, I would hazard a guess that the degradation of their gene-seed is due to the combination of exposure to the Warp whilst in the Eye of Terra, extreme levels of warp-tainted drug use, and intentional surgical alterations. Even before the Heresy kicked off Fabius was implanting the Emperor's Children with genetic and biological material from a Slaanesh tainted xenos race. This is what Betrayal says about the IIIrd Legions gene-seed:

 

Much is still extant in documentation of this Legion's founding, and from the data it is apparent that the mark of the Legion's gene-seed and its conditioning produced warriors with finely sculpted physiques, a noble bearing, and finely controlled thought processes, with psychological tendencies driven towards personal achievement and competition to prove individual superiority. The only abnormality registered was the occasional incidence of albinism, and a shift in iris colour to violet in some recruits. Such minor effects of the gene-seed implantation and conditioning process did nothing to distract from the aura of aesthetic refinement that clung to the IIIrd Legion, even in the first years, and they were held up as an archetype to be lauded and by whom others were judged. (Betrayal, p. 103).

 

This was before the Heresy and before the experimentation. I would imagine that any new Chapters created from Traitor Legion gene-seed would utilise uncorrupted gene-seed (otherwise what would be the point?). Like I said before, I'm pretty bias towards the Emperor's Children, but I feel fairly safe in saying that their uncorrupted gene-seed (from the stocks on Mars) would be perfect for the creation of a new Chapter.

 

 

Regarding the Blood Ravens: I'm not worried about Ahriman's Rubric. I thought that Magnus made a pact with Tzeentch to stop the flesh-change that was devastating the Legion prior to his discovery?  I would assume that the consequences of that pact would follow his bloodline still. I could definitely be wrong about this though :P

 

 

Regarding the Alpha Legion gene-seed: Yeah, you're right that we don't know enough about the Alpha Legion's gene-seed to really make a call either way. The Index Astartes article describes them as "Tall and strong, much reminiscent of their Primarch, and... possessed of a cunning intelligence." Extermination doesn't tell us too much either, only that:

 

...the extant sample records place the gene-seed implantation success for the XXth pattern as being in the higher end of the recorded spectrum. The evidence would indicate it was certainly far superior to certain other developed types (the difficulties experienced by the VIth and IXth patterns being documented elsewhere). (Extermination, p. 80).

 

Also, couldn't all of the Legions do the Primarch blood trick thanks to the Omophagea? As far as I'm aware they could, but it was the Alpha Legion that most commonly/exclusively used it.

[Aramis K]

Mix them all up.

Why one gene-seed to a formation? Companies with squads from Iron Warriors, War Hounds, Lunar Wolves, Death Guard, and Alpha Legion, would be very powerful. Strength from diversity.

 

Mix in some Space Wolf field police to watch for corruption.

 

If I was taking one line for a new chapter it'd be the Iron Warriors. Solid and dependable. I'd armour them in bright colours so they felt noticed.

[Kinstryfe]

Definitely possible about the Blood Ravens. It's as good an explanation as any. If it is the case, it could have the interesting side effect of making Magnus' sons less prone to other chaotic influence, as Tzeentch would be still protecting them.

 

I'm satisfied with the info on the IIIrd. Consider them approved for implantation. I'd consider them easily one of the top 2 options then.

[Leif Bearclaw]

Depends on what you want your 'test case' to do.

 

If you want to produce a reliable, effective Chapter of Imperial Marines, then IV, XII or XIV. All were solid gene-lines that produced effective Legions, which were ultimately undone primarily by the character flaws of their Primarchs. IV might give you an easier time in the lab, XII a bit more belligerence or XIV a bit more resilient to environment, but those are all relatively minor, you should (assuming the stigma around those gene-lines is wrong) end up with perfectly normal Chapters, ready to get their crusade and purging on in the name of the Emperor.

 

However, if you want your 'test case' to be a proof of concept that the Traitor gene-lines are viable in m42 and dispel the stigma around the lines once and for all, I'd go for XV or XVI. XV, because if you can make the hardest of the 9 a success, that's a good indicator the rest will work too. XVI, because if you can use the gene-seed of the arch Traitor Horus without the Marines succumbing to recidivism and treachery, that's a pretty good argument for 'the gene-seed is fine, it's the men that turn traitor'.

[MoK]

The geneseed for most of the Traitor Legions is fine. TSons might be a bit iffy, but the rest where fine. The Terran and largely Loyalist members of the Legions were fine. It was the influence of the recruits from their new 'home World' and their Primarchs that caused them to turn Traitor. Bare in mind that the tribal traits of the Terran recruits tended to shape a Legions fighting style enhanced by their Primarchs programmed specialism. The new recruits from the Primarchs homeworld added yet another unique trait to each Legion. More like Nuture rather than genetics.

[Blindhamster]

Terrans were technically as likely to turn traitor depending on legion, for scars and dark angels for example, both have a good documented number of terran traitors, likewise, for luna wolves the specific loyalists we know of are not terran.

[Arkangilos]

The Blood Ravens are not confirmed as TS successors, so we can't really use them as a, "well it proves that TS geneseed was stabilized".

[crazyterran]

If Guilliman were to pick any, id imagine it would be the Iron Warriors, as he had a few loyal ones with him on Sotha. Raising a group in the memory of Dantioch, if he was willing to go to such sentiments.

[Kingleir]

Didn't Cawl 'fix' the gene seed, thus none of the negative effects should be included.

[Blindhamster]

he didn't remove traits the emperor wrote into them (implied specifically for canis helix and red thirst for BA)

[hushrong]

I am not totally caught up on new fluff but seeing the huge tear in reality and chaos spilling out I would say IV.

 

Having more superb siege experts who are hard-as-nails fighters makes for a strong bundled-package and having them pressed into services seems like a great idea. If I need them to defend a world they can shore up its defenses and if I need to take one over then they can lay siege. However, as I type that last sentence I can see their original dilemma from the Great Crusade being put on repeat. Note to Guilliman: Be sure to heap some praise on them or they will turn bitter.

[Cryptix]

I am not totally caught up on new fluff but seeing the huge tear in reality and chaos spilling out I would say IV.

 

Having more superb siege experts who are hard-as-nails fighters makes for a strong bundled-package and having them pressed into services seems like a great idea. If I need them to defend a world they can shore up its defenses and if I need to take one over then they can lay siege. However, as I type that last sentence I can see their original dilemma from the Great Crusade being put on repeat. Note to Guilliman: Be sure to heap some praise on them or they will turn bitter.

Now I have a question: if Magnus saw that Cawl put XV legion geneseed into action and managed to stabilize it using his DNA, would he attempt to corrupt them, just kill them, or leave them alone because they remind him of his failure?

[Kallas]

Which traitor legion?

 

The First Legion, of course!

 

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/000/091/TrollFace.jpg

[Ascanius]

If the Blood Ravens were Thousand Sons successors - and I don't think they are, really - it would suggest that someone figured out how to cure the Flesh Change, or perhaps that the Rubric of Ahriman worked on the unimplanted gene-seed stores held by the Adeptus Mechanicus.

 

To my mind, if you were going to do it with any Legion, you should do it with the Luna Wolves - one chapter isn't much of a risk in the grand scheme of things, and you may as well test it with the Legion you're most afraid of.