Death Company: Bolter and Chainsword

[Aothaine]

Hey everyone!

 

So I've been looking into Death Company a lot more recently. I don't want to dive into building this group yet as I wanted to run the idea by everyone here and see what they think about it. So what I'm thinking about doing is getting 45 Death Company with Jump packs/Bolters/Chainswords to drop in on turn one with a bare-bones captain. I'm trying to build multiple groupings of units/tactics so I can just plug and play with them. I have always loved that CSM could use Bolters and Chainswords but they can't now. Anyway, some info below about the drop.

 

Death Company drops in first turn just inside double tap range. I know, that is just shy of 12". "But wait!" you are thinking to yourself right now. "They will just be shot to pieces, leadership is going to be an issue, their only in power armor, etc... "  Something I have come to discover this edition is that you are going to lose units and you need to find their strength and play to that. Death Company have a very unique strength in that they are one of the few units that can equip themselves in this way. So how does a list like this work?

 

Three max size squads of Death Company with Jump packs/Bolters/Chainswords drop in. You take away a lot of the threat and guarantee that you get at least one turn of maximum firepower. 90 shots at 3+(Reroll 1s) S4 0 1. Now you may be thinking to yourself that this isn't going to do much. But remember we can now split-fire at will. I think people are also stuck in the you need to kill the unit that you shoot at mentality. We no longer need to do that. With morale and the way it works now all we need to do is 4-8 kills per units based off their leadership. There are a few armies out there that can prevent leadership losses with auto passes. But usually those armies get shredded by mass fire and need it to prevent even further losses. 

 

Now you might be thinking to yourself that sure, you get that many shots but the moment the unit takes fire and gets charged it is gone. That is not necessarily true. You have to keep in mind again that units are also built for a specific purpose. The Bolter&Chainsword with Jump pack allows the unit to fall back and double tap anything that has charged it or just focus on something else and let the rest of your forces pick off the big gribbly that decided to assault your Death Company.

 

"The Shame! Using Death Company as a shooty army!" I know, I know. But they are pretty damned good at this role on paper and if you can back them up with some anti-big gribbly firepower/units then they should easily be able to focus down the units that your opponent is bringing to the table. Not to mention that should the opportunity arise the unit can assault and do so in a very manly fashion. I'm talking Old Spice manly fashions here and you get to watch your opponents face as those 5-10 remaining Death Company pull in 20-40+5-10(chainsword) attacks at str 4 which is wounding most things on at most 5s. If you charge a T8 gribbly with these guys you're doing it wrong. Sure you can gear them out to take T8 out very easily but other units can do it for less fewer points.

 

These three units come in at 900 points even. This gives you 1100 points to focus on other units and their delivery systems. Also want to mention that they have a 3+ save that can be 2+ on the right board with a 6+FNP. I know that most people consider the 6+FNP as entirely useless but it is pretty damned better than not having FNP at all.

 

I'm also thinking about using this with min/sized tac squads with lascannons in Razorbacks with twin-lascannons, or perhaps dropping in two stormravens with two Death Company Dreadnoughts, a priest and maybe librarian, there are a lot of options here but what ever is taken it needs to have some anti-big gribbly firepower.

 

What do you guys/gals think?

[SanguinaryHarlequin]

I ran my DC with the Chainsword and Boltgun set up in my last game against a Deathguard Army. I had 10 + Lemartes in support, so not a massive amount of them. It completely changed them though, I would never run them with bolt pistols again. It gave 10 guys 60 401 attacks on the charge then rather than 50. The idea of shooting in close combat is cool but mostly never pays off because your opponent almost always pulls out of combat anyway, unless you surround them. So you don't lose anything and most things will likely die anyway that you shoot and charge even with 10 guys. You could throw in a JP Captain but I still think you gain more from Lemartes. While the shots are good they aren't your main hitting power.. A nice added bonus. That's the way I see it anyway

 

My friend who plays the DG is already pretty scared of the DC threat as they can take down some serious stuff even with Chainswords. Took down Typhus and his Demon Prince in 'one' turn in the game before. Charged me with his Demon prince, failed to kill anything, got eaten. Then they charged Typhus and a terminator squad and killed them too. Now with the boltguns he likes them even less, he was pretty surprised they could do that too.

 

Scaling this up probably wouldn't be a terrible idea, especially with some good gun line support. The math hammer does pan out on the field from my experience. Your opponent will soon be trying to kill them off if he wasn't scared of them before. It makes them a range and melee threat, which when paired with Lastacs with lasbacks in the rear field makes a nasty mess. Not only do they already have a lot of hard to shift lascannons on the field now they have this blob of death causing troubles too. I haven't had the chance to run them like this with the priest but I want to try it out, S5 will be good for the wounds. The librarian works well another +1A is scary good on these guys and some smite protection can be nice too. All in all some good ideas here which have worked well for me in recent games against Codex armies, which should be naturally stronger by that fact.

[Palwatch]

If you throw in a Sangunary Ancient to the mix, making sure the DC never have to take leadership checks, you have something very scary. Although you might struggle against termy/2+ heavy armies.

 

If i was running it I would have a Sang Ancient (or astorath as a hq) and a Sang priest with a JP close by to make all those chainswords S5

 

If you have some points left over, throw in some plasma pistols.

 

A single 15 man unit also has teh potential to tie up a lot of enemy units if you multi charge

[brother_b]

How to model DC like this? Bolter in one hand and chainsword in the other, a la Rambo holding that M-60 one handed?

[Dont-Be-Haten]

It sounds cool. It is a huge point sink to have half your total points in reserve with the amount of alpha strike there is.

 

Interestingly there is an ongoing discussion as to if units in dedicated transports count as 1 drop or multiple. If you go second it's going to be a disadvantage, with the amount of alpha strikes out there, and high rates of fire Will still be issues. you almost certainly need a presence on the board and 1100 points does not go as far as it once did.

 

So other side of the coin and all that.

[olcottr]

I have actually seen this way of using DC to great effect in previous editions, because they had Relentless back when you couldn't charge after rapid firing.  It was a big advantage. Now, regular Tac Squads can do the same thing but cheaper. I think using the JPs in 8th edition would be a great way to bring it back.

[Aothaine]

It sounds cool. It is a huge point sink to have half your total points in reserve with the amount of alpha strike there is.

 

Interestingly there is an ongoing discussion as to if units in dedicated transports count as 1 drop or multiple. If you go second it's going to be a disadvantage, with the amount of alpha strikes out there, and high rates of fire Will still be issues. you almost certainly need a presence on the board and 1100 points does not go as far as it once did.

 

So other side of the coin and all that.

 

Yeah that was something I was kind of concerned about. Which is why I think the storm raven idea is not as good as it might look. Las-tacs in Las-razors is where it is at I think. You get obsec, three lascannons hitting on 3+ for 205 points. 

 

I'm happy to hear that I'm not the only person that is seeing how good Death Company can be when they are geared out for a different purpose. Anyway I'll keep looking around for other ways to use them, but I honestly feel that this is the best way. If you want a specialist unit you should just go with company vets, but these units of 15 are blenders at ranged and melee. Also, the Sang Guard Ancient is a great idea! With correct positioning you can even get to use his mask to give the opponent the -1 leadership. I like it a lot more than the bare-bones captain for reroll 1s. Morale immunity is huge in this edition. So you drop him in with a Sang priest. Golden.

[olcottr]

Also keep in mind that casualty selection is huge in this edition.  You could put a couple of "hidden" power weapons in there that will last until the end.

[Aothaine]

Also keep in mind that casualty selection is huge in this edition.  You could put a couple of "hidden" power weapons in there that will last until the end.

 

Once you start down that road you begin to make them too expensive imho. Power swords are not too bad but they add up real quick.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

 

It sounds cool. It is a huge point sink to have half your total points in reserve with the amount of alpha strike there is.

 

Interestingly there is an ongoing discussion as to if units in dedicated transports count as 1 drop or multiple. If you go second it's going to be a disadvantage, with the amount of alpha strikes out there, and high rates of fire Will still be issues. you almost certainly need a presence on the board and 1100 points does not go as far as it once did.

 

So other side of the coin and all that.

 

Yeah that was something I was kind of concerned about. Which is why I think the storm raven idea is not as good as it might look. Las-tacs in Las-razors is where it is at I think. You get obsec, three lascannons hitting on 3+ for 205 points. 

 

I'm happy to hear that I'm not the only person that is seeing how good Death Company can be when they are geared out for a different purpose. Anyway I'll keep looking around for other ways to use them, but I honestly feel that this is the best way. If you want a specialist unit you should just go with company vets, but these units of 15 are blenders at ranged and melee. Also, the Sang Guard Ancient is a great idea! With correct positioning you can even get to use his mask to give the opponent the -1 leadership. I like it a lot more than the bare-bones captain for reroll 1s. Morale immunity is huge in this edition. So you drop him in with a Sang priest. Golden.

 

The T7 is good and all, but when you are staring down a horde of Gene Stealers that can move, move + advance + charge, you can get tabled turn 1. Or Smite spammed to death. If you're looking at 2-3 storm ravens/hawks; as well as all the other crazy first turn strikes; not a whole lot that 900 points is going to do in reserve when facing those things down. If I played against this list I would always burn a CP just to re-roll a chance at seizing, just to get turn 1 won, and then look to see what happens between being able to table you because of your lack of boots on the board, or if I could weather a turn of bolter storm.

[Thrown Pommel]

One idea I'm thinking of is a big 15 man unit backed up by a librarian and Lemartes. Unleash rage for +1 attack is huge for Death Company with chainswords, and Shield of Sanguinius gives them a 4+ inv. save. Could make them into a very good distraction unit.

[Helias_Tancred]

I love your concept!  ... and I may have to try it out? Keep us up to date on how it performs for you if you indeed do this?

[Aothaine]

 

The T7 is good and all, but when you are staring down a horde of Gene Stealers that can move, move + advance + charge, you can get tabled turn 1. Or Smite spammed to death. If you're looking at 2-3 storm ravens/hawks; as well as all the other crazy first turn strikes; not a whole lot that 900 points is going to do in reserve when facing those things down. If I played against this list I would always burn a CP just to re-roll a chance at seizing, just to get turn 1 won, and then look to see what happens between being able to table you because of your lack of boots on the board, or if I could weather a turn of bolter storm.

 

Placement is key at this point then. Also I agree that the 2-3 storm ravens are not going to work with this list. You will want las-tac w/ twin lascannon razorbacks for more bodies on the field. You wouldn't place them all in one spot. You spread them out and start them on your back line working to prevent deepstrikes as much as possible. Force your opponent to choose a side. If they separate to assault all aspects of your forces the Death Company can drop in and double tap. Bolters do amazing work on Genestealers and all horde assault armies. This is exactly what the Bolter + Chainsword build is for. It makes the units flexible. Also, if the tyranids race across the board and happen to get into assault with you turn 1 they are not doing it with every unit. This will spread their lines and give you beautiful attack points and the ability to drop in and flank the Genestealers. These units don't even need to assault as they are three attacks each when they are assaulted. This lets you drop in, double tap then overwatch. If you don't think this is worth it look at the hurricane bolters. They do work. The same concept applies here on a platform that can be a beast in assault. 

 

I normally wouldn't split a list into separate components like Dedicated Range and Ranged/Assault but the Bolter & Chainsword combo just works too well and gives the units resiliency with the squad sizes and sanguinary ancient backing them up. The key thing to remember here is that you are performing a Shock Attack with anti-heavy ranged support over your entire back line. You can easily fit in four min las-tacs and four Twin-lascannon Razorbacks. That is 12 lascannon shots. Nothing to sneeze at. They all have obsec as well. Then you take the sanguinary ancient and drop him with the Death Company, and drop a priest with the Death Company as well. The other units will not need bubbles as they will be too spread out. 

 

If you can table four Razorbacks and 16 marines that are spread out all over my back line then I tip my hat to you. 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

 

 

If you can table four Razorbacks and 16 marines that are spread out all over my back line then I tip my hat to you.

Not trying to be abrasive here but I've seen this happen in my meta.

 

I think your on to something, and I like your list. I have a problem with looking at lists from my meta. I have everything to make this list so I could proxy a variant to test out against the player base.

[Aothaine]

You are not being abrasive. That is just a lot of wounds to cause on the back line in turn one. What is your meta like?

[Dont-Be-Haten]

You are not being abrasive. That is just a lot of wounds to cause on the back line in turn one. What is your meta like?

Magnus ksons smite spam, 2(3) Knights with 2(3) Storm Ravens <Imperium> army, Smite Spam Tyranids, Horde nids with Trygons/Mawlocs and sporracytes, Tau with Taunar list, Predator Spam list, and then the normal stuff for non event, competitive games.

[Panzer]

Dunno. It definitely makes Deathcompany a little bit more viable than taking them with just Boltpistols but at the end of the day it's still just some Bolter shooting.

I mean it's not like they ever get on the level of Noise Marines with Assault3 cover ignoring Bolter per model which can also be doubled with the Slaaensh Stratagem ... and even there I'd replace their S4 shooting with better Missile Launcher whenever I can because mass S4 doesn't help against everything.

Or even T'au who can easily take a ridiculous amount of S5 shooting that at least wounds MEQ on 3+.

 

tl;dr taking Bolter on DC is not a bad idea but no winning strategy.

[Remtek]

Drop in jump vets with stormbolters, 4 shots a piece. Still not great, but your doing the same for less. Elite armies are in such a bad spot atm :(

[Arkhanist]

 

If you can table four Razorbacks and 16 marines that are spread out all over my back line then I tip my hat to you.

Not trying to be abrasive here but I've seen this happen in my meta.

 

I think your on to something, and I like your list. I have a problem with looking at lists from my meta. I have everything to make this list so I could proxy a variant to test out against the player base.

 

 

You can't table someone until the 2nd battle round (sudden death, pg 215). If you go first, you deep strike at least some of the death company - potentially your whole army is on the table for your alpha strike. If the opponent goes first, worst case they wipe out your on-table units in their turn 1 and you then deploy the DC in your turn 1 of the 1st battle round. OK, you're not in a good position with half your army dead, but if the enemy can easily wipe out half your points in one round of shooting, you were probably stuffed no matter what.

 

Sure, if you keep all the DC twiddling chainswords off-table while the rest of your force is getting shot up you're at risk being tabled battle round 2, but that's a risk with any army with a large tactical reserves contingent - and given units off the board aren't doing any damage, is a bad idea generally.

 

Flyers don't count towards units on the table since the FAQ thus the plan for razorbacks etc, but you'll always get the chance to deploy your deep-strike units in round 1 without getting tabled.

[Aothaine]

 

 

If you can table four Razorbacks and 16 marines that are spread out all over my back line then I tip my hat to you.

Not trying to be abrasive here but I've seen this happen in my meta.

 

I think your on to something, and I like your list. I have a problem with looking at lists from my meta. I have everything to make this list so I could proxy a variant to test out against the player base.

 

 

You can't table someone until the 2nd battle round (sudden death, pg 215). If you go first, you deep strike at least some of the death company - potentially your whole army is on the table for your alpha strike. If the opponent goes first, worst case they wipe out your on-table units in their turn 1 and you then deploy the DC in your turn 1 of the 1st battle round. OK, you're not in a good position with half your army dead, but if the enemy can easily wipe out half your points in one round of shooting, you were probably stuffed no matter what.

 

Sure, if you keep all the DC twiddling chainswords off-table while the rest of your force is getting shot up you're at risk being tabled battle round 2, but that's a risk with any army with a large tactical reserves contingent - and given units off the board aren't doing any damage, is a bad idea generally.

 

Flyers don't count towards units on the table since the FAQ thus the plan for razorbacks etc, but you'll always get the chance to deploy your deep-strike units in round 1 without getting tabled.

 

 

 

Good points made here.

 

Drop in jump vets with stormbolters, 4 shots a piece. Still not great, but your doing the same for less. Elite armies are in such a bad spot atm

 

Company Veterans are good. But they cannot fill the same gaps that Death Company can fill. CVs are max 5-man. DC is max 15-man. The perceived and actual threat from the DC is much better imho.  Also want to point out that DC can be assaulted and still win the fight. There will always be a counter to everything. You just need to come to the resolution that if you are dropping in 45 DC equipped with Bolters/Chain swords and charge a knight with them, or charge a T'au gun-line your using them wrong. The jump-packs are to get the units with max size into the most advantageous position to then drop double-tapped bolters into your targets while maintaining significant pressure on your enemy allowing you to take back field objectives with good anti-heavy support from those back line units. 

 

This will most likely be my second Flesh Tearers list as my first one is based on Alpha Striking with Heavy Flamer dev squads backed up with DC dreads, librarians and stormravens. I just wanted to get everyone's thoughts on the Bolter+Chainsword aspect of Death Company as most conversations I see about Death Company people are tossing in power swords, thunder hammers etc... and I just don't think that anti-tank is their best role anymore.

 

40k has always been a numbers game and getting 45 rapid firing bolters on my opponents flank on my first turn sounds pretty damn good. As well as the units being able to deploy in other areas if necessary to secure objectives etc.. 

 

Though if we get a mandatory rage, run to nearest enemy on a d6 roll, rule applied to them and lose the ability to control their distance and movement then it might fall apart pretty easily.

 

But I am also building my entire army with the Primaris bodies. Now that those are out I see no reason at all for me to use the older, smaller, miniatures. Though I still need to buy some just for the more decorative pieces, weapons, shoulder pads etc..

[GrunTeufel]

I started kitting them out with bolters since the start of 8th and never looked back since. They come on the board, shoot a target, charge another one (lemartes charge reroll is great) and they almost always come out on top. Shooting a pistol in combat really isn't all that helpful compared to being able to do twice the damage in the shooting phase. And if they have jump packs they can always retreat and shoot some more which is also a neat option to have.

[Crimson Ghost IX]

Great discussion here fellas.

 

45 jump pack DC models with bolters might be getting a little crazy with the cheese wiz for me personally, but I am picking up what you are putting down Aothaine. Great stuff !!

DC need a bump from the codex to be right again, but they are totally usable as is in my opinion.

 

From a lore standpoint I really do like the idea that we BA are mostly not all crazed maniacs on a last ride to glory still. SO other units should be good too.

 

Some thoughts:

I think 3x9 in Rhino is also pretty gnarly with say Corbulo, Mephy, Capt (Tycho the Everliving?) Chaplain, etc riding along.

(Armour does fun things to enemy target priority, not to mention stun locking stuff with charging rhinos).

(Get out, dakka, charge and count the dead before rinse and repeat).

(Those Rhinos also might cover / take some fire off the support line as things develop).

 

I can't leave home without a chunk of hidden power weapons on the death company myself.

(Because Chaos Marines... and the occasional need to go Smurfing etc...).

 

Chaplains are sexy with DC.

 

I am looking forward to hopefully having a jump pack / transportable LT option in a codex someday.

[tychobi]

Sounds cool fluffy and fun.  If your meta is not super competitive it is a great choice for casual gaming.  Don't expect to tear up the tournament circuit with it. 

[durdle-durdle]

Post some batreps with this style list, I'd like to know how you do!

[DeathcompanyDante]

I had one ages ago with my mate who plays guard. Ran three rhinos with bolter dc, (maybe 8-10 strong?), with a priest and libby nearby. As far as i can remember they cut through the conscripts and then got to his battle tanks and mortar teams and caused mayhem. Think the game was a draw on victory points but i do remember the dc cutting through his centre in the first couple of turns. By the end of the game they had been whittled down and charged by rough riders but i just remember being satisfied by what they had achieved. To be fair he wasn't proactive in dealing with them but i don't think he expected 80-100 conscripts die so quickly. The rhinos took the overwatch and on the second turn charge the two units were brutalised and withdrew. The battle tanks opened fire but he didn't kill many and the priest brought back a couple. They then gunned down most of the remaining conscripts and charged the tanks, he lost one instantly to hammers and fists and the other two lasted another 1-2 turns. He then counter charged with rough riders from reserve which blunted my attack but by that point the damage had been done. Think thats an accurate account of what happened but if i play him again ill put it more in depth. It wasn't really competitive was just for fun with proxy models for a lot of the guard so i didn't bother taking photos. But 30 napoleonic polish lancers doubling as rough riders was both impressive and terrifying.