7th edition...formations and characters

[9x19 Parabellum]

Yes I know this is probably going to ruffle some black bird feathers...but bare with me..

 

I'm playing a 7th edition game tomorrow night. 1k points...

 

I'm going to do a battle demi-company (with a jump pack chaplain) and a Shadowstrike Kill team.

 

Can the jump chaplain join the Vanguard Vets and share in their "On time and On target" special abilities?

 

Since I only started playing RG like..a few weeks before 8th edition dropped, I was never really able to enjoy a lot of the 7th edition Space Marine stuff.  Sorry for the question, as I'm sure this was asked like 5 years ago.

[Damo1701]

Short answer is no, not unless he is part of the formation.

 

I can't remember what makes up the SSKT, which is why I can't remember if a character is part of it.

 

You also need to consider the wording of the formation special rule. If it states it's just the Vanguard, then they would lose it if a character joins them.

[9x19 Parabellum]

Thanks Damo.

 

SSKT is 1-3 units of vanguard veterans and 2-4 units of scouts.

[Damo1701]

No probs

[thewarriorhunter]

No feathers ruffled, I say play what you want. I am curious that as to why you're playing a game of 7th?

[9x19 Parabellum]

No feathers ruffled, I say play what you want. I am curious that as to why you're playing a game of 7th?

 

I started a thread a couple weeks ago called 8th edition blues...but it got shut down by mods...prematurely if I may levy a small protest.  But there were a couple instances where things got nasty (not by me..I was too busy painting for HHotE to reply to my own thread).

 

So...if everyone promises to play nice, I'll go into it.

 

Basically, I played about 30 games of 8th. I liked it at first, but increasingly began to find it lacking.  My buddy and I call it "Candyhammer". There are just a lot of things we don't like about it.  The one size-fits-all solution with cover, the lack of facing on vehicles (and the measuring of firing from any part of the model), assaulting after shooting any kind of weapon, are a couple examples.  We are just finding it to be a very....less tactically interesting version of the game based on how WE play 7th edition.  That is to say, we are not ones to spam D weapons, riptides and Skyammer Annhilation Forces.  We have a gentleman's understanding about power creep and abuse so the imbalance problems of 7th edition don't quite affect us as much.

Anyway, I will continue to play 8th at my FLGS, but for me and my buddy, it's 7th edition (although we are likely to adopt some stuff from 8th that we like as well).

[thewarriorhunter]

gotcha, I remember that thread now. I wasn't actively participating in it because I don't have a lot of games of either edition under my belt.

 

I always like to hear why people revert to the previous edition.

 

I think having a friend that you can agree with things on is the way to play.

[Mileposter]

Basically, I played about 30 games of 8th. I liked it at first, but increasingly began to find it lacking.  My buddy and I call it "Candyhammer". There are just a lot of things we don't like about it.  The one size-fits-all solution with cover, the lack of facing on vehicles (and the measuring of firing from any part of the model), assaulting after shooting any kind of weapon, are a couple examples.  We are just finding it to be a very....less tactically interesting version of the game based on how WE play 7th edition.  That is to say, we are not ones to spam D weapons, riptides and Skyammer Annhilation Forces.  We have a gentleman's understanding about power creep and abuse so the imbalance problems of 7th edition don't quite affect us as much.

Sounds like what a my regular group did for 7th. We hated formations. The 7th edition ruleset was good, but we hated the way formations fundamentally altered the balance of play. So we played what we called "Oldhammer" (I now know there was actually a project somewhere called Oldhammer, we didn't know that at the time) where we used the 7th edition base, but a lot of the old 4th-5th Force Org balances and reserves rules. It's rather minimalist, but it's what worked for us.

 

Regarding the original question, this is a rather interesting case. The 7th Ed Character rules and Formation rules do say that IC's from one formation can join units of another Formation, but their Formation rules do not apply to them. So to answer question one: Can he join them, answer is yes.

 

Character rules also say that the IC is treated as being a part of that unit for all rules purposes. The 'On Time' formation bonus says that Unit may arrive. he is part of that unit, so it seems to me that he would be able to arrive as they would - a yes.

 

Charging rules, however, say that when a unit charges, each model must be able to charge - and since the IC doesn't get the 'On Target' Formation bonus, he's not able to charge, so the unit wouldn't be able to make use of 'On Target' while he's there. So - a no.

 

That's how I'm reading it, anyway. Seems pretty straightforward.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

 

Basically, I played about 30 games of 8th. I liked it at first, but increasingly began to find it lacking.  My buddy and I call it "Candyhammer". There are just a lot of things we don't like about it.  The one size-fits-all solution with cover, the lack of facing on vehicles (and the measuring of firing from any part of the model), assaulting after shooting any kind of weapon, are a couple examples.  We are just finding it to be a very....less tactically interesting version of the game based on how WE play 7th edition.  That is to say, we are not ones to spam D weapons, riptides and Skyammer Annhilation Forces.  We have a gentleman's understanding about power creep and abuse so the imbalance problems of 7th edition don't quite affect us as much.

Sounds like what a my regular group did for 7th. We hated formations. The 7th edition ruleset was good, but we hated the way formations fundamentally altered the balance of play. So we played what we called "Oldhammer" (I now know there was actually a project somewhere called Oldhammer, we didn't know that at the time) where we used the 7th edition base, but a lot of the old 4th-5th Force Org balances and reserves rules. It's rather minimalist, but it's what worked for us.

 

Regarding the original question, this is a rather interesting case. The 7th Ed Character rules and Formation rules do say that IC's from one formation can join units of another Formation, but their Formation rules do not apply to them. So to answer question one: Can he join them, answer is yes.

 

Character rules also say that the IC is treated as being a part of that unit for all rules purposes. The 'On Time' formation bonus says that Unit may arrive. he is part of that unit, so it seems to me that he would be able to arrive as they would - a yes.

 

Charging rules, however, say that when a unit charges, each model must be able to charge - and since the IC doesn't get the 'On Target' Formation bonus, he's not able to charge, so the unit wouldn't be able to make use of 'On Target' while he's there. So - a no.

 

That's how I'm reading it, anyway. Seems pretty straightforward.

 

 

The topic was debated many times when 7th edition was the current edition, and every time the debate landed on "Technically he can join the units, but then neither he nor those units get to use either ability"

 

For all intents and purposes, in this case, it does not work.

 

The best way to think about it is that Formation grants two abilities: A new way to deploy (without deviation) and the ability to charge afterwards (bypassing the core rules). The character (Chaplain in this case) simply has neither of those rules, so while technically he could join them, he wouldn't have those rules, thus prohibiting them from using them while he is attached.

[Mileposter]

Except there is nothing in the core rules of 7th saying that him being a part of the unit means they won't be able to be deployed, as the rule doesn't stipulate like scout and infiltrate does.

 

Caveat here, I did not have a chance to check the reserves section, to see if there was some complication there.

 

If not, then there's nothing I have seen this far to support the assertion that the Chaplain must have the rule for thunit to be deployed as such. Open to such things - just haven't seen it.

[9x19 Parabellum]

So, for what it's worth, I decided to change my HQ. I did not end up taking a Jump Pack Chaplain. Instead, I took a Biker Captain and attached him to the unit of bikes.

 

Worked better anyway, as my Vanguard Veterans really bombed tonight.  We rolled a massive 10" on scatter, bounced into some Skitarri Vanguard, and went back into ongoing reserves.

 

Tonight was a horrible defeat for the Raven Guard, I'm afraid :-(

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Errata/Warhammer_40000/Space_Marines_EN.pdf

 

Excerpt:

 

 

Q: The Skyhammer Annihilation Force. Can Independent Characters join this Formation? If so, do they gain the special abilities bestowed upon the Formation?

 

A: Independent Characters can join this Formation in the usual way, but they will not gain the special abilities bestowed upon the Formation. This means that if the Independent Character joins an Assault Squad from this formation, for example, that squad won’t be able to use the First the Fire, then the Blade special rule to charge in the turn they arrive. A Character cannot be deployed with this Formation if they do not have the ability to arrive on the same turn as the Formation. 

 

 

I don't believe we ever got an FAQ for Angels of Death (where Shadow Strike Kill Team is located) before 8th edition dropped, however the wording and conditions are very similar between both the SAF and SSKT. Logic would dictate that this FAQ response could easily be applied to the SSKT (at least in my opinion). However if you could illustrate to me how they would be treated differently, I would be interested to hear it.

 

Also worth noting I don't have any 7th Edition materials in front of me, so I am operating off of memory, so its definitely feasible I could be mis-remembering.

[Mileposter]

I'd say that FAQ ruling pretty much shows the intent of the ruling. Were it me arguing for my own game? I'd leave it there and cede to your original stance.

[9x19 Parabellum]

Yes, thanks.  That's what I wanted.  I had seemed to remember arguments both in favor of, and against the whole IC joining formations thing. That FAQ pretty much seals the deal.  Hence, why i dropped the Chappy and went to the Cappy.

[Claws and Effect]

The FAQ ruling was meant to curb people doing things like attaching multiple characters to a unit with a special deployment rule and abusing that ability to have a deathstar that can charge on the first turn.

 

If formation rules applied to attached special characters, there is nothing stopping you from attaching 5 jump captains to a unit of Vanguard and using On Time and On Target to stick them in melee turn 1.