Cultists... Uses?

[Charlo]

So I'm not sure I see the point of DG Cultists?

 

For the sake of a couple of Auto-gun/ flamer shots, Pox Walkers get buffed by Typhus, have DR and a few other useful abilities that just seem to make them a mile better choice!

 

Can anyone clarify what Cultists are best used for?

[Azekai]

They are slightly cheaper than poxwalkers, but you get what you pay for. It is very easy to toss some rapid-fire bolter shots and have the cultists die/run for the hills.

A bargain barrel back-line objective campers they might have some use, but I default to poxwalkers. I like zombies and morale immunity makes me giggle.

[MoGuy]

Cultists are cheaper and benefit from the DG Legion Trait, being able to fire their Heavy Stubbers on the move and having 18" RFR with their Autoguns. Their uses are just a little bit different from their Poxwalker brethren:

 

In order to actually gain something from Poxwalkers, they have to move towards the enemy and engage in melee. If you sit 20 Poxwalkers on a backfield objective, that's 120 points that aren't doing anything.

 

Cultists on the other hand can hold those objectives and are reasonably useful against deepstriking units. 

 

Poxwalkers are your never-breaking tarpit that can swarm midfield objectives, Cultists are screening units that can sit in your backlines.

[Toomanyprojects]

Damn useful when combined with the shroud of flies strategy, as they can advance, double fire their autoguns at 18" and prevent the plague marines following from being shot at

[Mack]

Damn useful when combined with the shroud of flies strategy, as they can advance, double fire their autoguns at 18" and prevent the plague marines following from being shot at

Other than double tapping their rapid fire weapons, you can do cloud of flies on Poxwalkers to screen advancing PM.

 

I think where they shine is as back field objective holders. they at least can shoot deepstriking units. If you have enough of your army advancing forward, then they are cheap units out of the action holding objectives which is how I plan to use them and will probably draw little attention with your hard hitting units advancing. In short, I would rather have cultists holding backfield objectives than poxwalkers who are the better screen for advancing units as far as DG units go.

[Toomanyprojects]

My personal view (and this is subjective based upon my preferred playstyle and only a couple of games) is that its actually more useful to have a screening force that can shoot a bit, and that the DG trait is kind of wasted on poxwalkers as they have no ranged weapons and as a skirmish screen theyre unlikely to actually see combat in order to inflict casualties.

[bozo69pd]

If you have DG detachment cultists can you still use the generic CSM stratagem on them that respawns the whole unit on a table edge? That thing is sick.

[Panzer]

My guess is that they are only there so people who already had a decently sized CSM/DG army but don't want to buy too many of the new models at once can still play their army. Same with the generic HQ options. :P

Or...you know...for fluff reasons because not all Death Guard Cultists are automatically Poxwalker. ^^

[Toomanyprojects]

No to the cultists coming back I'm afraid, you can only use DG stratagems with a DG detachment and that one isnt there.

 

That being said, 'The Dead Walk Again' strategem (+1 poxwalker for every infantry model killed within 7" friend or foe) allows poxwalkers to recruit much faster than they usually do. So maybe a front line of cultists followed by poxwalkers and finally the DG. Has a hell of a punch when it hits home and will probably endure long enough to deliver it

Edited September 21, 2017 by Toomanyprojects

[Arkhanist]

No to the cultists coming back I'm afraid, you can only use DG stratagems with a DG detachment and that one isnt there.

 

That's not necessarily true I think; you only gain access to strategems if a detachment (composed entirely of the appropriate keyword) is in your army. So if you have a CSM detachment (black legion, say) and a DG detachment, you get access to black legion, generic CSM, DG and universal strategems. Each strategem lays out what keywords and/or units it can be used on - but nothing saying that they can only be used on the detachment that qualified in the first place, if the strat is more generic on the keywords. 

 

Death Guard and Black Legion both have strategems that specify they only apply to BL or DG keyword units, but not all of them do. If I remember correctly (don't have the book to hand) tide of traitors only specifies that it applies to chaos cultists. Assuming that's the case, RAW at least, there's no reason you can't use it on DG cultists if you have a CSM detachment, and there's nothing that indicates that wasn't intended that I can think of.

 

If you were a mono Death Guard army though, you definitely wouldn't be able to use any CSM (or indeed, any other army) strategems that weren't in the DG list.

[Charlo]

Thanks guys - muchos helpful.

 

I think if I'd want backfield I'd bring some Renegades & Heretics for funsies rather than cultists!

[bozo69pd]

 

No to the cultists coming back I'm afraid, you can only use DG stratagems with a DG detachment and that one isnt there.

 

That's not necessarily true I think; you only gain access to strategems if a detachment (composed entirely of the appropriate keyword) is in your army. So if you have a CSM detachment (black legion, say) and a DG detachment, you get access to black legion, generic CSM, DG and universal strategems. Each strategem lays out what keywords and/or units it can be used on - but nothing saying that they can only be used on the detachment that qualified in the first place, if the strat is more generic on the keywords. 

 

Death Guard and Black Legion both have strategems that specify they only apply to BL or DG keyword units, but not all of them do. If I remember correctly (don't have the book to hand) tide of traitors only specifies that it applies to chaos cultists. Assuming that's the case, RAW at least, there's no reason you can't use it on DG cultists if you have a CSM detachment, and there's nothing that indicates that wasn't intended that I can think of.

 

If you were a mono Death Guard army though, you definitely wouldn't be able to use any CSM (or indeed, any other army) strategems that weren't in the DG list.

 

This, I see the case for both arguments. I definitely need to get this figured out.

 

 

 

That being said, 'The Dead Walk Again' strategem (+1 poxwalker for every infantry model killed within 7" friend or foe) allows poxwalkers to recruit much faster than they usually do. So maybe a front line of cultists followed by poxwalkers and finally the DG. Has a hell of a punch when it hits home and will probably endure long enough to deliver it

 

I was thinking the exact same thing. Have the Formation go:

 

Cultist Blob (from CSM detachment)

Pox Walker Blob (target of cloud of flies and The Dead Walk Again)

Typhus

 

The only legal target is cultists who by dying make more pox walkers, then when cultists get low on models respawn them on the opponents table edge with Tide of Traitors stratagem.

[C'rumzoz Plaguecrest]

What size blobs of cultists do you guys use for sitting on back objectives?

[Charlo]

DG cultists CANNOT use a strategem from the Vanilla Chaos Codex.

 

That's common sense people come on!

[radionausea]

It says very clearly that if your army is battlefield, and contains detachments of the appropriate army (death guard in death guard codex, CSM in the CSM army) you gain access to the stratagems.

 

If the stratagem from either codex can be applied to a unit I see know reason why it can't be applied. Tide of Traitors to DG cultists is applicable as they have the right pre-requisites

[Azekai]

Claiming 'Death Guard' are not Chaos Space Marines is boneheaded. They are a subset of CSM, so relevant CSM strats can be used.

[radionausea]

I wouldn't go so far as to say boneheaded as I can certainly see where Charlo is coming from. Different stratagems from different codices would make *sense* not to be applicable to units from the other codex. But that's not the case.

It'll end up giving some armies access to far more stratagems than others.

Tyranids will have one codex of stratagems as will T'au. Eldar might have more than one codex worth. And stratagems are really good so having access to more might be unbalanced.

[Panzer]

Claiming 'Death Guard' are not Chaos Space Marines is boneheaded. They are a subset of CSM, so relevant CSM strats can be used.

Well yes and no.

The CSM Codex specifically says that your army needs to have at least one "Chaos Space Marine Detachment" included and be Battle-forged to get access to the Stratagems. Now "Chaos Space Marine" is not a faction keyword (that would be Heretic Astartes) but the name of the Codex.

So you do need a Detachment with stuff from the Chaos Space Marine Codex to unlock all those Stratagems and then you need to see what each Stratagem specifically says on what kind of unit it can be used (Heretic Astartes Character, Heretic Astartes Infantry, Chaos Space Marine Character, etc.)

 

Edit: offtopic question...how do I remove "likes" given? No offense but sometimes (rarely) I happen to accidently like a post while scrolling on my phone lol

Edited September 21, 2017 by sfPanzer

[radionausea]

btw and off topic, do you play at HATE, Charlo? I'm going to come along for the first time next Wednesday.

[Arkhanist]

I take back my previous thinking you may be able to use CSM strategems on DG cultists now I've got home to check on the books. In the blurb at the start of the Lost and the Damned section which covers the legion traits, stratagems etc.

 

"These rules include the abilities below and a series of Stratagems...Note that the Death Guard and Thousand Sons Legions deviate significantly in terms of organisation and therefore cannot make use of any of the rules or abilities listed in this section; instead they have bespoke rules and abilities detailed in their own codexes."

 

Regardless of whether it's generally possible to use strats on a different detachment or not, that seems pretty clear for no Tide of Traitors for DG cultists. Going the other way, all the DG strats specify the DEATH GUARD keyword bar Fire Frenzy, which CSM have anyway.

[Azekai]

I take back my previous thinking you may be able to use CSM strategems on DG cultists now I've got home to check on the books. In the blurb at the start of the Lost and the Damned section which covers the legion traits, stratagems etc.

 

"These rules include the abilities below and a series of Stratagems...Note that the Death Guard and Thousand Sons Legions deviate significantly in terms of organisation and therefore cannot make use of any of the rules or abilities listed in this section; instead they have bespoke rules and abilities detailed in their own codexes."

 

Regardless of whether it's generally possible to use strats on a different detachment or not, that seems pretty clear for no Tide of Traitors for DG cultists. Going the other way, all the DG strats specify the DEATH GUARD keyword bar Fire Frenzy, which CSM have anyway.

Whoops. Looks like I am eating crow on this one. Sorry to have doubted you, Charlo and Panzer.

 

I thought there was a bit of overlap between the codices, but apparently not. '...cannot make use of any of the rules or abilities listed' is pretty self explanatory. Death Guard are, indeed, not CSM. Seems pretty silly, but they are likely wanting to tamp down on these sorts of shenanigans. 

[Kimbo]

What size blobs of cultists do you guys use for sitting on back objectives?

Im curious of this aswell! Anyone?

[radionausea]

"These rules include the abilities below and a series of Stratagems...Note that the Death Guard and Thousand Sons Legions deviate significantly in terms of organisation and therefore cannot make use of any of the rules or abilities listed in this section; instead they have bespoke rules and abilities detailed in their own...

Good find!

[bozo69pd]

Thanks a ton guys. I will stick to using the particular stratagem for the particular detachments.

 

 

 

What size blobs of cultists do you guys use for sitting on back objectives?

Im curious of this aswell! Anyone?

 

I use 10 man for backfield, because you do not want to waste points on a unit that may never see combat or a single shot fired. Also, msu cultists in cover don't really have to worry much about morale if they just lose 1 cultist here or there.

 

I use a blob of 20 or 30 if they are slogging up the board but then they will have support.

[Charlo]

I think if you are in the mindset of previous editions where yes, "Death Guard" were essentially an army build using the Chaos Marines codex.

 

Nowadays though it is very much it's entirely own army. Same way that Blood Angels are compared to Ultramarines.

 

btw and off topic, do you play at HATE, Charlo? I'm going to come along for the first time next Wednesday.

 

If you mean Hackney Area Tabletop Enthusiasts, then yes mate I do!

 

I should be down next Wednesday too pursuing some fleeing Word Bearer's off planet with my Talons for the 30k campaign ;)