Icarus Array - Redundant or Superb?

[yellabelly]

With the introduction of the Protector Doctrina Imperative, I'm trying to decide what that does for the Icarus Array.

On the one hand, why take one? Flyers can be dealt with pretty effectively with our new stratagem. Even the hard to hit flyers will be facing a 2+ to hit most likely with re-roll 1s, given the widespread data tethers doubling the ad mech boost. So take a Neutron Laser instead, and drop a CP if you need rid of a troublesome flyer.

Or, does the volume and variety of firepower the Icarus Array offers make it a must have on a dunecrawler? You can still hit everything (flying or not) on 2s with the stratagem.

Thoughts?

[Silentz]

Good point. 

 

I think AdMech Command Points are going to be very valuable, though.  I feel like if you don't take an Icarus Array because you know you can kill flyers with CP's then you're also saying that in games vs flyers, you're going to go in with a 1 or 2 CP handicap over normal. 

 

I'd rather do the latter... take the Icarus and then choose to spend 1CP to fire it at a ground unit.   Note that I hadn't realised you could do that until you said it!    

[banis]

A thing to consider in the icarus vs neutron debate is that the icars is not only better against flyers..but also anything with the fly keyword(which is a lot now a days). It is also better vs infantry and it is a lot less likely to overkill a target compared to the neutron. The damage from the icarus is also more dependable, where the neutron tends to "go high or go low". Against targets with a good inv and/or a T value below 8, the neutron starts to even out compared with the icarus. 

I am not trying to say that the neutron is bad.. But that both units are valid options. 

[yellabelly]

I must admit, I usually find my Neutron swallows a CP or 2 when I whiff the dice rolls during a game. I'm thinking I might try two onagers, one Neutron and one Icarus and see how they get on. I don't think you can go wrong with either now they have the capability of reliably hitting against both air and ground troops.

[Charlo]

I think with all the buffs to accuracy we have combined with the plethora of units with Fly means the Icarus will always have some good targets.

 

Ten Shots with a nice range of Strength, AP & D will always do you well.

 

Plus it looks BALLER AS HELL.

[A D-B]

There's a lot of T'au, Dark Eldar, and Eldar on my tabletop. <Fly> is all over the show. Can't imagine the local tech-priests leaving home without a shipful of Icarus arrays as basic protection.

[Heliomanes]

If you bring good old Brontosaurus Carl along, the Icarus Onagers start acting similarly to kastelan robots. Plenty of shots and a reroll to hit. Fills a different niche than the neutron laser version, but they aren't bad at all.

[DanPesci]

My current list im thinking about has me taking 3 Onagers -  2 neutron, 1 icarus.

 

I love my neutron lasers, but as folk have mentoned, there's enough stuff with the fly keyword (and ways to buff it against non-fly if needs be) to pretty much always make bringing an icarus a decent choice.

[Vel'Cona]

My current list im thinking about has me taking 3 Onagers -  2 neutron, 1 icarus.

 

I love my neutron lasers, but as folk have mentoned, there's enough stuff with the fly keyword (and ways to buff it against non-fly if needs be) to pretty much always make bringing an icarus a decent choice.

 

I like this solution.  Cover all your bases.

[Charlo]

Considering the Icarus Array is only 10pts more than the Twin Phospher too and while you lose cover and a single equivalent power shot, you get TWO extra guns, so a LOT more shots/ range/ damage flexibility for a negligible to hit penalty.

[Prot]

Yea I was just going to say when I read the title that it's the way the fly keyword works that really helps the Icarus. But a lot of people have covered that.

 

In my experience all new codices have these super tempting ways to entice you into burning CPs. But really it's easy to squander them and I always go back to needing that laser damage reroll or that last save reroll. I'd prefer to not use CPs on flyers.

[MagicHat]

If you face Necrons, you might struggle against their vehicles with a neutron. Icarus do not care.

 

Plus what all the others said.

[Yoda79]

I have been testing most of my games to find exactly the spot where my onagers will be enough. I found that in order to say i can effectively make a good list overall i need 3 neutronagers.

 

Now the icarus is superb but atm you need to focus on robots. That said there are options.

 

If you run an outrider or need fast units for detach ments balistarii twin lasc can fill the role so 2 neutronagers 1 icarus at least +1 lasc bal.

 

If you believe you are fine with 2 neutron and one icarus at least get 4+ arquebus it can fill that last wounds icaruz will not with str 7-6.

We used icarus since it was also an option for hordes Nd it is but atm we increase the number of robots so you switch from icarus.

 

My advice

3 neutron no icarus.

2 N 1 icarus + balistarii or 4* snipers minimum.

48 range heqvy toughness and there are heavy transport lists you ll need all the help you can get. Thats the spot i found average ro pass most enemy lists. 2 antitanks will be minimum on enemy lists and i dont plan to kill knights on 3 rounds when dice not with me.

 

And your rangers have 30 range and more robots and neutron got 2* stubber same price with new codex and dragoons will kill a ton in melee.

[banis]

I have been testing most of my games to find exactly the spot where my onagers will be enough. I found that in order to say i can effectively make a good list overall i need 3 neutronagers.

 

Now the icarus is superb but atm you need to focus on robots. That said there are options.

 

If you run an outrider or need fast units for detach ments balistarii twin lasc can fill the role so 2 neutronagers 1 icarus at least +1 lasc bal.

 

If you believe you are fine with 2 neutron and one icarus at least get 4+ arquebus it can fill that last wounds icaruz will not with str 7-6.

We used icarus since it was also an option for hordes Nd it is but atm we increase the number of robots so you switch from icarus.

 

My advice

3 neutron no icarus.

2 N 1 icarus + balistarii or 4* snipers minimum.

48 range heqvy toughness and there are heavy transport lists you ll need all the help you can get. Thats the spot i found average ro pass most enemy lists. 2 antitanks will be minimum on enemy lists and i dont plan to kill knights on 3 rounds when dice not with me.

 

And your rangers have 30 range and more robots and neutron got 2* stubber same price with new codex and dragoons will kill a ton in melee.

The thing about neutron v icarus is that most people think the icarus is crap vs armour... lets say they both fire against a knight styrix.. the neutron onager will average 1,9 unsaved wounds and the icarus will do 1,8. Not that huge of a difference and the icarus is way better against alot of other targets. 

[Yoda79]

I used icarus extensively. Prior to codex. What you fail to understand atm is the extreme point limit we are into as ad mech. So onager skitarii we got canticles we got Cawl we got thech priest we got skitarii gems all buff hit rolls. All and its generally good. The only thing buffing our wound rolls is neutron. If you go vs a toughness 10 building filled with lascannons you ll understand. And if you face toughness 8 knight for example you precious icarus wont do it. And yes so far icarus has been the best for me as well but we cant add more robots more stubbers more troops and keep spaming shots. I dont have another good high strength weapon un less you use lasc or plasma .

 

So easy to say if i got 3 neutrons i can deal with anything directing 1-2 gems . If i got an icarus i cant do much to wound higher tough. Thats about it.

 

And as i said i used them extensively. Atm you can do without but still not a big issue either way you go. 2 neutron 1 icarus 3 neutron most likely and at current meta will provide almost same results if inside Cawl. Maybe a bit less for icarus for hordes 4+ bs. If you find your self vs tau fliers most games go for it. I jist said how much antitank works for me and how i react.

If your local games inclide tons pf skirmiss air etc sure. But keep in mind onager perform the same or close till tough 6-7 and air else they dont. Icarus remains one single platform and you will have to target all wewpons same target. Dont forget that. And in practise dual stubber was more effective for me as antihorde targeting low troops than icarus that usualy waste half shot when killed a target.

 

So equal only when face multi big units air withlow toughness and as said you can aim those with other guns as well. And again i would have no problem playing icarus and i did so far. But atm in my list i got no more room sorry. If i used 4 onagers yes one would be icarus.

Edited September 22, 2017 by Yoda79

[beefeb]

1 Icarus, 2 neutronagers is my favourite combo.  The Icarus is so multi faceted targets wise and the neutrons are just awesomesauce....they do really well in games I have deployed them in.

[lancerusso]

Yoda79, you've got list limits because you're playing mars.

 

IMO, another forge world might do you better. You don't need to bring cawl, you have doctrina imperatives now, as well as rerolls from canticle and normal tech priests. I definitely think another onager is better than cawl.

 

I've been seeing a lot of success with a squad of three autocannons ironstriders. They minced 5 termies in overwatch, and thats without using the cognis stratagem