Cawl

[Mellow]

Forgive my ignorance.

 

Has he ever featured in any lore previously to the new stuff? Or is he just a new addition to introduce new plot lines?

[Sete]

New. But I'm sure he will shoehorned somewhere.

[Ascanius]

Newly invented for The Gathering Storm I: Fall of Cadia and fleshed out a little in the novel Dark Imperium. I wouldn't be shocked if he cameoed on Terra in one of the final Heresy novels.

[Xisor]

The Codex: Adeptus Mechanicus entry on him is much more evocative and... a bit more plausibly lifelike? It certainly makes more sense why we're only just seeing him.

 

(Though, shy of Arkhan Land, not many techpriests were terribly notable down the ages - not next to Dante and Lord Solar Macharius and Sebastian Thor etc. It's only really in the last few years they've credibly obtained celebrity status rather than cult status, so to speak.)

Edited September 25, 2017 by Xisor

[Felix Antipodes]

Newly invented for The Gathering Storm I: Fall of Cadia and fleshed out a little in the novel Dark Imperium. I wouldn't be shocked if he cameoed on Terra in one of the final Heresy novels.

While they may shoehorn him into the final HH novels, I think it more likely they save him for the rumoured Scouring series where they could show how he came to Guilliman's attention.

[b1soul]

Someone as instrumental as Cawl probably deserves his own novel or series

 

It's also a bit strange that Cawl is the only 10,000 year old magos...you'd think that multiple members of the Mechanicum would augment themselves into human brains inside machines capable of functioning almost indefinitely

[helterskelter]

With all the infighting with the mechanicum/ad mech cawl was probably one of the few sensible enough to get out of the way and stay there.

[Sandlemad]

The AdMech codex made an interesting point that he has had his mind wiped or data-corrupted or improperly backed up to one degree or another multiple times over his 10k lifespan. It makes him less infallible* but also leaves space in his background open to expansion. You could essentially slot him in almost anywhere and chalk it up to a blank spot in his memory. It's a kind of fun but it's also a pretty transparent writerly trick to drop this 10k-old guy into the imperium's 10k-old history.

 

I have to agree with Xizor though re: how well known Cawl is. There's still more that could be done with him. So much of the rush to identify Cawl as the same dude as Arkhan Land is down to the two of them being the most fleshed out members of the Mechanicum/Admech in GW background. Even Land was relying on a short (if very evocative) few paragraphs from an IA article before Master of Mankind came out. And yeah, Cawl's barely been expanded into a three-dimensional character himself.

 

* The codex does state that he's not the only master of masters (i.e. magos with genius ability in multiple disciplines, from genetics to archaeology to shipbuilding) in the galaxy or even on Mars, just that he is the most active and prominent in the wider Imperium. There's also no way he's the oldest techpriest. There's surely still half-fossilised and half-senile ancient magi on Mars, built into the architecture of forge-temples and not inclined to periodically stomp around the galaxy on crusade.

Edited September 25, 2017 by Sandlemad

[HeritorA]

The AdMech codex made an interesting point that he has had his mind wiped or data-corrupted or improperly backed up to one degree or another multiple times over his 10k lifespan. It makes him less infallible* but also leaves space in his background open to expansion. You could essentially slot him in almost anywhere and chalk it up to a blank spot in his memory. It's a kind of fun but it's also a pretty transparent writerly trick to drop this 10k-old guy into the imperium's 10k-old history.

 

Knowing that you have some doubts BL and GW will go for that?

[Mellow]

I’ve not read any of that but that all sounds like it has great potential for someone to flesh out with a novel about what he’s been up to and what difficulties he’s had in the political landscape of Mars. (After the joy of TBAs political stuff I do enjoy it)

 

Wonder if he’ll ever be expanded on!

[HeritorA]

I’ve not read any of that but that all sounds like it has great potential for someone to flesh out with a novel about what he’s been up to and what difficulties he’s had in the political landscape of Mars. (After the joy of TBAs political stuff I do enjoy it)

 

Wonder if he’ll ever be expanded on!

sadly he will. I can now see where the new direction goes. It is one event - and 10 fillers for it (with all respect to Wraight - CT and EL are good but they are fillers to GS)

[Ascanius]

So much of the rush to identify Cawl as the same dude as Arkhan Land is down to the two of them being the most fleshed out members of the Mechanicum/Admech in GW background.

 

I've been having this argument on reddit all week! It's so dumb.

[b1soul]

Regarding the mind-wipes...

 

This could mean that Cawl's original consciousness died thousands of years ago and that in effect, Cawl has been multiple a succession of different consciousnesses throughout history

[Sandlemad]

Regarding the mind-wipes...

 

This could mean that Cawl's original consciousness died thousands of years ago and that in effect, Cawl has been multiple a succession of different consciousnesses throughout history

 

You could treat it like the ship of Thesus / grandfather's axe paradox, yeah. Haley has already been playing around with the idea of true or copied Cawl identities in Dark Imperium with the Cawl Inferior; which one's real, which one has the link to the original archmagos, etc. Looks like something that will be developed in the sequels.

 

EDIT: Just realised Xizor already said all this, and better, in the AdMech forum.

Edited September 25, 2017 by Sandlemad

[Mellow]

Are sequels planned?

[Sandlemad]

Are sequels planned?

 

Haley mentioned that Dark Imperium is the first part of a series, yep: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/06/13/writing-of-dark-imperium/

 

No particular details but it certainly felt like a 'book one'.

[Mellow]

That fills me with joy to read that. :)

[b1soul]

@Sandlemad

 

I hope Dark Imperium is the beginning of a long-running series like Gaunt's Ghosts

[LOYAL-TRAITOR]

Someone as instrumental as Cawl probably deserves his own novel or series

 

It's also a bit strange that Cawl is the only 10,000 year old magos...you'd think that multiple members of the Mechanicum would augment themselves into human brains inside machines capable of functioning almost indefinitely

i dont think they are willing to imply the means to stay alive that he will.

Die or live long enough to become a heretic

[HeritorA]

Are sequels planned?

Sadly.

 

 

@Sandlemad

 

I hope Dark Imperium is the beginning of a long-running series like Gaunt's Ghosts

Hope not - quality is subpar - not the best Haley work.

 

 

Someone as instrumental as Cawl probably deserves his own novel or series

 

It's also a bit strange that Cawl is the only 10,000 year old magos...you'd think that multiple members of the Mechanicum would augment themselves into human brains inside machines capable of functioning almost indefinitely

i dont think they are willing to imply the means to stay alive that he will.

Die or live long enough to become a heretic

 

He will not become a heretic - he is schism creator inside Mechanicus. He is a heretek for them. But a loyalist for the general Imperium.

[Mellow]

In your humble opinion

[cheywood]

While I agree Dark Imperium wasn't perfect, especially towards the last third of the book, I think that has more to do with Haley having to showcase both the Primaris and Nurgle than any failure of his as a writer. The next book hopefully won't have the same expectations on its shoulders as other writers create Post-GS content. I'm excited to see what Haley does with Cawl in particular. A solo book about his Conclave Acquisitorius could be very exciting as well. Edited September 26, 2017 by cheywood

[HeritorA]

In your humble opinion

Yes, thank you. I knew I could count on you to help me with the stuff I forgot

 

While I agree Dark Imperium wasn't perfect, especially towards the last third of the book, I think that has more to do with Haley having to showcase both the Primaris and Nurgle than any failure of his as a writer. The next book hopefully won't have the same expectations on its shoulders as other writers create Post-GS content. I'm excited to see what Haley does with Cawl in particular. A solo book about his Conclave Acquisitorius could be very exciting as well.

Haley should write DG as he sees them - not the caricature models GW trying to sell us now. They are not the clowns to giggle and laugh. They wer and would be CSM (Space Marines). And they have organization and beliefs. Not in the moustache evil of grinning to GrandPa Nurgle enemies.

[MrDarth151]

 

@Sandlemad

 

I hope Dark Imperium is the beginning of a long-running series like Gaunt's Ghosts

Hope not - quality is subpar - not the best Haley work.

 

 

Frankly, I think Haley was focused on his Blood Angels more than on the Dark Imperium, having read it and Dante back to back. The latter is far better than the former.

 

Though I'm naturally biased towards Blood Angels, so make of that what you will.

 

If anything, I think we should try to flesh out the Indomitus Crusade first, but that's just my opinion.

[HeritorA]

 

 

@Sandlemad

 

I hope Dark Imperium is the beginning of a long-running series like Gaunt's Ghosts

Hope not - quality is subpar - not the best Haley work.

 

 

Frankly, I think Haley was focused on his Blood Angels more than on the Dark Imperium, having read it and Dante back to back. The latter is far better than the former.

 

Though I'm naturally biased towards Blood Angels, so make of that what you will.

 

If anything, I think we should try to flesh out the Indomitus Crusade first, but that's just my opinion.

 

Indeed - though 'Dante' has many flaws, 'human' parts of the novel was amazing.

Devastation on Baal on the other hand would be a grandiouse heroic success or would flop solidly, cause it is a non-stop action of SMs. And SMs and Haley does not work very well in the general scope of things