Arguments against Guilliman's new order

[DogWelder]

What are arguments that could be made, both from in universe characters and from an objective fan standpoint, that Guilliman's influence on the Imperium has been negative since his return?

 

Personally I believe that Guilliman's return is good for the Imperium and the reforms he is introducing are desperately needed in order to break down the stale and corrupt structures of the Imperium and bring about a dynamic and innovative wave of changes that would result in the Imperium becoming more fair, efficient, practical in order to meet the myriad threats it is currently facing. 

 

According to the new books, most Imperials in-universe thinks this way too. So far I haven't been able to find any in-lore arguments against Guilliman and his changes to the Imperium made in good faith. Where there is opposition, it is always presented as being dishonorable in nature or more concerned with maintaining tradition over the greater good of the Imperium. 

 

For example, in 'Dark Imperium', his reformation of the 500 Worlds of Ultramar and stationing of 10,000 Ultramarines and Ultramarine Successors within his personal empire was massively popular with the citizens of Ultramar with only some selfish planetary governors and governesses being dissatisfied. Similarly, the only people who opposed his re-appointment of the high lords seem to be doing so out of a need to protect their personal wealth. 

 

So I'm curious, what would be some logical arguments against Guilliman and his actions/position within the Imperium? One that some dissatisfied Imperials and 'traditionalists' would have that can be backed up by evidence? It would be pretty bland if this was a black/white issue.

 

[Kinstryfe]

You've kind of stated yourself that in the fictional narrative they've created, there aren't a lot of good arguments that won't be petty or self serving. The only one I could imagine gaining any real traction from both good or bad places would be a "Humanity First" movement, arguing that since humanity has had to rule itself for over 9,000 years, a Primarch and Astartes have no right to rule over an empire of humans. Seeing Guilliman return, reconquering worlds and installing Astartes as either governors or peacekeepers has to sit ill with many of the current governorships, and I could see them rallying to keep their Imperium free of superhuman influence.

 

Not that I would advocate that position in-setting, but I could see it arising and gaining some traction.

[Adeptus]

The reason the legions were originally broken down into chapters was because a large concentration of forces can be easily led astray by a single commander. This reason is still legitimate and still stands. If Guillimans 10,000 Astartes in the Ultramar region were to go rogue, it would be an unacceptable loss to the Imperium. From an in-universe point of view, it's an unacceptable risk IMO.

[graysparrow]

Here's an argument any Inquisitor worth their badge of office should be making, or at least thinking.  

 

Big Bobby G's 'resurrection' is Heresy of the highest order.   A dead primarch's body was defiled and re-animated by xeno witchcraft and the thing that claims to be Cawl's blatant tech-heresy.  The newly risen puppet goes on to claim dominion over the entire Imperium, rubber stamp Cawl's blatant tech-heresy, and order it's dissemination into every space marine chapter.  At best, primaris marines are vile heresy planted in the heart of each chapter to erode their traditions and corrupt them from within..  At worst,, they're sleeper agents awaiting the signal to attack their so called brother astartes in a violent take over.  In truth, it's probably both, as well as something worse.  

 

 

There has to be a critical yarn shortage in the Imperium now from all the kittens the Inquisition would be having over this. 

[Lexington]

I don't think the Dark Imperium storyline was been written with enough distance from the marketing department to have those kinds of in-universe arguments plausible. From an Imperial perspective, everything he's done has been an enormous success! He's pushed back Chaos, pulled the Imperium out of technical stagnation, beat back an apparently enormous Chaos invasion and probably baked an apple pie for every Imperial citizen in between.

 

It makes it easy for GW's sales boys to have a fairly perfect, noble leader for the Imperium - cast in plastic, ready to be purchased and assembled at your local Games Workshop retail location - but it's done some incredible damage to the breadth and verisimilitude of the setting.

Edited September 26, 2017 by Lexington

[Bjorn Firewalker]

It makes it easy for GW's sales boys to have a fairly perfect, noble leader for the Imperium - cast in plastic, ready to be purchased and assembled at your local Games Workshop retail location - but it's done some incredible damage to the breadth and verisimilitude of the setting.

Remember when the Grey Knights slaughtered a bunch of Adepta Sororitas and then bathed in the Sisters' blood, in order to protect themselves from a Daemon of Khorne, i.e., the Blood God?

 

Considering the damage already inflicted upon the setting, I don't see how Guilliman's presence can make things worse.

Edited September 26, 2017 by Bjorn Firewalker

[Arganias]

In the Dark Imperium book, Guilleman has made waves with some of the worst people in the Imperium. What is keeping him in power is equal parts his successes and his "divine" birthright. If G-man had a significant failure, those Inquisitors, administrators, and other power seekers would be spreading doubt like crazy. G-man actually hasn't changed that much of the bureaucracy of the Imperium, mainly because of the imminent threat of Chaos during and immediately after the Indomitus Crusade.

 

If another loyalist Primarch comes back, he'd have as much right to rule as G-man if someone ambitious, like the Lion comes back.

 

My personal hope for the direction of the lore is that the Lion comes back, and takes control of the Imperium Nihlus. Where G-man is trying to bring progress and reason into the Imperium. On the other hand, the Lion would continue the status quo so long as it keeps his side of the rift winning wars. I picture Imperium Nihlus keeping a lot of the classic, blocky aesthetic of 40k Imperium, while G-man's becomes a little more sleek, but not divorced from the classic look too much.

 

How many people actually know how G-man was resurrected? Serious question, I hadn't read in depth on that part of the story.

[the jeske]

For example, in 'Dark Imperium', his reformation of the 500 Worlds of Ultramar and stationing of 10,000 Ultramarines and Ultramarine Successors within his personal empire was massively popular with the citizens of Ultramar with only some selfish planetary governors and governesses being dissatisfied. Similarly, the only people who opposed his re-appointment of the high lords seem to be doing so out of a need to protect their personal wealth.

 

 

yeah, man you station an army that civilians have a close to 0 chance of hurting, and  then check how offten in official documents those civilians complain. In a sociaty where if you complain your classed as a hertic and shot [if your lucky].

[EdT]

"Watchers of the Throne" covers this very nicely (and does a wonderful job of making Guilliman's return feel 'fluffy' and in keeping with the setting- read it!). Here's the view of one of the more sceptical High Lords...

 

“He is a primarch. You know your forbidden history – they were fratricidal lunatics, prepared to tear the entire galaxy apart to pursue their feuds. We designed the Lex (Imperialis)- _He_ designed the Lex – precisely to stop them doing it ever again. He cannot take control... They say that this Imperium is a rotten corpse, a shell of what it once was. I’ve never believed that. We’re greater now than we’ve ever been, and these trials are no different to the ones we overcame before. We’re hardier, we’re tougher, we’ve faced the dark for longer than he ever did. His age is over. We’re the inheritors of the mantle.”

[Ishagu]

I expect that High Lord had been removed and stripped of all authority.

 

Guilliman is in the unique position to have walked with and talked with the Emperor, and knows more of his intention than anyone else sitting amongst the High Lords.

[Robbienw]

Some were replaced after gulliman had his 'chat' with the emperor, but they are still in place to run the imperium. Obviously their power and authority is reduced now guilliman is Lord Commander.

[Kinstryfe]

Which does raise the point, does the Imperium exist to serve the Emperor, or did the Emperor truly pass off rulership to humanity. If he passed off rulership, then Guilliman having talked to a living Emperor 9000+ years ago is kind of moot. If the Imperium exists for the purpose of serving The Emperor, then it is a key point. Seeing as how Guilliman is now Lord Commander of Terra, I'd say the Imperium currently exists to advance The Emperor's agenda. Whether that's good or bad I imagine varies a lot (or is irrelevant) depending on ones lot in life.

[Volt]

The Legion Guilliman is running around is bloody stupid because of its organization and concentrating of Astartes forces when, more than ever, they need to be spread about. The thing that makes this new narrative shift really bloody stupid is that the entire justification for Guilliman writing the Codex is now more true than ever, yet he is suddenly ignoring his own fantastic advice and instituting a new system that is moronic during the Great Crusade (more the organization of the legions than the nature of the legions themselves) and is absolutely stupid now (Primaris legion-style organization which is terrible and having a large legion of marines running around instead of distributing them over a wider swath of territory).

 

Other than that quibble I like Guilliman coming back, as frankly when you have a ridiculously overqualified superhuman to act as a leader, no human should even be allowed to assume any leadership position over him because of the blatant superiority for the job. Mortals simply have no business in governing the Imperium unless they happen to come from the Adeptus Mechanicus (in which case they aren't mortal anymore).

[Blindhamster]

In Dark Imperium he specificially notes that he feels his breaking of the legions was wrong now.

The reason he's pulled the 500 worlds back together is because he has realised that Ultramar is a beacon of hope, and imagine how much more it could have been had he not crippled and broke it apart in the first place.

He specifically hasn't recreated a legion, keeping individual chapters with their own chapter masters etc. What he has is no different to what Dante has (Had!) at Baal for their last stand, all the successors together, except Guilliman doesn't have them all, just a tiny fraction. In fact, in theory Dante commanded more marines than any imperial commander has commanded for millenia. And it wasn't enough to save one system.

Edited September 26, 2017 by Blindhamster

[Sete]

If I was Helbrecth I would go to the Phalanx grab Dorns bony hand and slap it across Guillimans face.

[Charlo]

"Watchers of the Throne" covers this very nicely (and does a wonderful job of making Guilliman's return feel 'fluffy' and in keeping with the setting- read it!). Here's the view of one of the more sceptical High Lords...

 

“He is a primarch. You know your forbidden history – they were fratricidal lunatics, prepared to tear the entire galaxy apart to pursue their feuds. We designed the Lex (Imperialis)- _He_ designed the Lex – precisely to stop them doing it ever again. He cannot take control... They say that this Imperium is a rotten corpse, a shell of what it once was. I’ve never believed that. We’re greater now than we’ve ever been, and these trials are no different to the ones we overcame before. We’re hardier, we’re tougher, we’ve faced the dark for longer than he ever did. His age is over. We’re the inheritors of the mantle.”

 

This is very cool and a GREAT look into the highlords in a realistic way.

[DogWelder]

"Watchers of the Throne" covers this very nicely (and does a wonderful job of making Guilliman's return feel 'fluffy' and in keeping with the setting- read it!). Here's the view of one of the more sceptical High Lords...

 

“He is a primarch. You know your forbidden history – they were fratricidal lunatics, prepared to tear the entire galaxy apart to pursue their feuds. We designed the Lex (Imperialis)- _He_ designed the Lex – precisely to stop them doing it ever again. He cannot take control... They say that this Imperium is a rotten corpse, a shell of what it once was. I’ve never believed that. We’re greater now than we’ve ever been, and these trials are no different to the ones we overcame before. We’re hardier, we’re tougher, we’ve faced the dark for longer than he ever did. His age is over. We’re the inheritors of the mantle.”

 

'We’re greater now than we’ve ever been, and these trials are no different to the ones we overcame before. We’re hardier, we’re tougher, we’ve faced the dark for longer than he ever did'

 

While I certainly appreciate them giving Guilliman some political pushback for the sake of the general story...what kind of drugs was this guy taking? 0.0 Half the Imperium is more or less cut off by a huge warp storm, Terra was just invaded by a massive Khorne army, the Imperium is getting desperate for resources and are resorting to strip mining entire worlds, Chaos now has a galaxy-wide front against the Imperium etc. etc.

 

If it wasn't for Guilliman and the Primaris Marines this guy would currently be Abaddon's enslaved back-scratcher. He reminds me of one of the High Lords from the Beast Arises series who were so confident in human superiority to the point where they didn't recognize they had been beaten even when an Ork was standing in the Imperial palace, laughing at how pathetic the High Lords were. 

Edited September 26, 2017 by DogWelder

[Cryptix]

In Dark Imperium he specificially notes that he feels his breaking of the legions was wrong now.

 

The reason he's pulled the 500 worlds back together is because he has realised that Ultramar is a beacon of hope, and imagine how much more it could have been had he not crippled and broke it apart in the first place.

 

He specifically hasn't recreated a legion, keeping individual chapters with their own chapter masters etc. What he has is no different to what Dante has (Had!) at Baal for their last stand, all the successors together, except Guilliman doesn't have them all, just a tiny fraction. In fact, in theory Dante commanded more marines than any imperial commander has commanded for millenia. And it wasn't enough to save one system.

Little nitpick at that last part: Legions did have Chapter masters and chapters, they were the orginizational structure under the legion in the hierarchy. So a bunch of chapters made a legion, etc.

[Urriak Urruk]

You could make the argument that without Guilliman's return, the Daemon Primarchs would stay out of the materium (for simply disinterest).

[Blindhamster]

 

In Dark Imperium he specificially notes that he feels his breaking of the legions was wrong now.

 

The reason he's pulled the 500 worlds back together is because he has realised that Ultramar is a beacon of hope, and imagine how much more it could have been had he not crippled and broke it apart in the first place.

 

He specifically hasn't recreated a legion, keeping individual chapters with their own chapter masters etc. What he has is no different to what Dante has (Had!) at Baal for their last stand, all the successors together, except Guilliman doesn't have them all, just a tiny fraction. In fact, in theory Dante commanded more marines than any imperial commander has commanded for millenia. And it wasn't enough to save one system.

Little nitpick at that last part: Legions did have Chapter masters and chapters, they were the orginizational structure under the legion in the hierarchy. So a bunch of chapters made a legion, etc.

 

 

Thats a valid point! Also means that Guilliman isn't the first one to reform a legion by that logic though

[Jareddm]

 

"Watchers of the Throne" covers this very nicely (and does a wonderful job of making Guilliman's return feel 'fluffy' and in keeping with the setting- read it!). Here's the view of one of the more sceptical High Lords...

 

“He is a primarch. You know your forbidden history – they were fratricidal lunatics, prepared to tear the entire galaxy apart to pursue their feuds. We designed the Lex (Imperialis)- _He_ designed the Lex – precisely to stop them doing it ever again. He cannot take control... They say that this Imperium is a rotten corpse, a shell of what it once was. I’ve never believed that. We’re greater now than we’ve ever been, and these trials are no different to the ones we overcame before. We’re hardier, we’re tougher, we’ve faced the dark for longer than he ever did. His age is over. We’re the inheritors of the mantle.”

 

'We’re greater now than we’ve ever been, and these trials are no different to the ones we overcame before. We’re hardier, we’re tougher, we’ve faced the dark for longer than he ever did'

 

While I certainly appreciate them giving Guilliman some political pushback for the sake of the general story...what kind of drugs was this guy taking? 0.0 Half the Imperium is more or less cut off by a huge warp storm, Terra was just invaded by a massive Khorne army, the Imperium is getting desperate for resources and are resorting to strip mining entire worlds, Chaos now has a galaxy-wide front against the Imperium etc. etc.

Cognitive dissonance in politics is one of the fundamental truths of humanity.

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

So i have skimmed through this thread and have yet to find this argument: he is not the Emperor. Only a primarch. A holy creation but one that has proven corruptible in the past something the Emperor has never proven to be.

[Lay]

 

Remember when the Grey Knights slaughtered a bunch of Adepta Sororitas and then bathed in the Sisters' blood, in order to protect themselves from a Daemon of Khorne, i.e., the Blood God?

Considering the damage already inflicted upon the setting, I don't see how Guilliman's presence can make things worse.

 

That's one random battle vs the new status quo.

[Daigo Cannon]

Guilliman gathering a force to defend the 500 world and the edict of gathering a "Legion", is done because over the history, Ultramar has stand up as the most prosperous system, even the emperor recognized Ultramar is better organized and kept than solar, the idea of building something new over the foundation of Ultramar than the current imperium is the more practical decision.

 

It was a re assignation of tasks, the chapters gathered for this duty kept their organization and officers, it is only they know work in unison to protect Ultramar.

 

If I'm correct, just Cawl, Tiberius, Celestina and Yvrainne know Rob had to die to be resurrected, in the official propaganda of the imperium it is just know that he woke up and heal from his stasis internship. In heresy era those marine near their dying Primarch suffered a psychic backlash when they died, this did not occur so only those watching closely at Cawl and Yvrainne know that little secret.

 

Even from Imperium Secundus, ruling is not a priority for Guilliman, he did it on Ultramar as it was Konor's Empire and to honor the memory of him. The problem with Rob stepping down, is only for another primarch to appear needs to be fit to rule, as shown in the past he does not trust on the Lion always having a hidden agenda, Russ is to wild.  

[Plaguecaster]

You could make the argument that without Guilliman's return, the Daemon Primarchs would stay out of the materium (for simply disinterest).

Not really as the daemon primarchs invaded the imperium regularly when they felt like it way before Guilliman was revived