Arguments against Guilliman's new order

[Shinespider]

 

But I suppose suddently tech heresy and xenos witchcraft are alright to the Imperium.

The imperium at large doesn't know about it though. You're confusing what we know and what is perceived in-universe by only a handfull of characters most of which have interest in allying Guilliman.

 

 

This is important - and the new Admech codex says so specifically - the Official Story of Guilleman's resurrection is that the all-knowing Adeptus Mechanicus did it by themselves. Only a handful of scattered individuals would have any reason to suspect otherwise. 

 

Likewise, Cawl's "tech-heresy" is the kind of internal doctrinal dispute that nobody outside of the Admech gives a damn about. Space Marines and Imperial Guardsmen don't care whether or not their tanks conform to an STC standard. 

[Bryan Blaire]

Frater Cornelius is a heretic! What? Next you are going to tell us that the Imperium should embrace filthy xeno ideologies about holding hands for the greater good or some such rubbish?!

:lol:

 

That's what has always amused me about people talking about the differences between the Tau and human Imperiums - their philosophy is ultimately not different, the Tau just extend their concept to "lesser races" that can join their empire under them, while the human Imperium is also a "do your duty for the greater good", their philosophy is just for Humanity though.

[Ciler]

 

 

But I suppose suddently tech heresy and xenos witchcraft are alright to the Imperium.

The imperium at large doesn't know about it though. You're confusing what we know and what is perceived in-universe by only a handfull of characters most of which have interest in allying Guilliman.

 

 

This is important - and the new Admech codex says so specifically - the Official Story of Guilleman's resurrection is that the all-knowing Adeptus Mechanicus did it by themselves. Only a handful of scattered individuals would have any reason to suspect otherwise. 

In fact, I was trying to tally up who would know of the eldar involvement : I can think of Cawl, Calgar, Celestine and Greyfax. Almarich did witness it but it is very strongly suggested he is no more. Of that lot, Cawl will obviously not betray the secret (since he's taking all the credit) and neither will Celestine (since she's convinced this was the emperor's will). I could see Calgar having reservations, but I imagine he'll be the dutiful solder and obey his primarch unless something goes blatantly wrong in which case he won't need the justification anyway. Greyfax strikes me as the most likely to question Guilliman's resurrection at the end of the day, and she's not much in the grand scheme of things.

 

On the other hand though, Guilliman did meet the Emperor, so it could be assumed that He is OK with the way things went. Besides, there is ample evidence he doesn't mind tinkering with alien/heretic tech when that suits his purpose.

[Bjorn Firewalker]

Likewise, Cawl's "tech-heresy" is the kind of internal doctrinal dispute that nobody outside of the Admech gives a damn about. Space Marines and Imperial Guardsmen don't care whether or not their tanks conform to an STC standard.

They do, but only regarding two issues:

 

1) Does the weapon work?

 

2) Can we keep it working? If the tank runs low on fuel, how can we refuel it? If the gun runs low on ammo, where can we get more? If either suffers battle damage or otherwise breaks down, can it be fixed in time to fight the next battle?

 

The Inquisition may be concerned with an additional issue:

 

3) Is it tainted?

 

But Cawl is a Tech-Priest, NOT a psyker, so Chaos-taint is unlikely to be a concern.

[Volt]

 

 

The Emperor doesn't care about individual people.

 

He cares about humanity as a whole however, it's the only thing he cares about.

 

This is explained in Dark Imperium.

As well as many other heresy novels. The casual disregard with which imperial soldiers are sent to die by the thousands during the crusade - while the emperor is around - clearly demonstrates that no individual life is of value to him.

 

 

Making him the lowest of low in my eyes.

 

A good ruler is Machiavellian, not an empath. If you care deeply about individuals you will be absolutely ruined as a ruler and be unable to make effective, necessary decisions. Especially in something as screwed as the Imperium which is beset on all sides by invaders and infiltrators.

[Shinespider]

 

A good ruler is Machiavellian, not an empath. If you care deeply about individuals you will be absolutely ruined as a ruler and be unable to make effective, necessary decisions. Especially in something as screwed as the Imperium which is beset on all sides by invaders and infiltrators.

 

 

The absolute confidence with which people assert stuff like this is sometimes deeply funny to me, and sometimes deeply concerning.

[librisrouge]

 

He is devising a codex for good governance though. Something that is broad enough to be applied throughout the galaxy. Not sure about its name though.

 

As for the 500, that's kind of what he's trying to do in Dark Imperium. Make Ultramar the 'model' the rest of the Imperium should follow. He even states that he plans to expand his domain far past its original borders in terms of influence and actual size.

 

I think that Guilliman suffers from the same thing a lot of leaders suffer from, the hope of a silver bullet. A single method, technique, or solution that will rid them of problems. Humanity might not be governable according to a single philosophy, even as complex (yet understandably simple, no doubt) a philosophy as Guilliman could devise. The codex astartes was vaste enough that even a dedicated Ultramarine would struggle to understand it, and the lion's share of that information had practical application. If his codex imperialis is even similar, it will be too bulky, too narrow, or, the worse possible result, simply force astartes into unwanted leadership roles until humanity receives their new lords and, highly fallible, masters that'll have to enforce Guillimanian governmental structures upon them (for their own good, of course.) It'll be the worst excesses of the Empire of Iron or the Astral Claws all over again, except these master will not die of old age, they'll need to be fought.

 

Good luck with that.

[Gentlemanloser]

Wait.

 

Did Chaos actually invade? Did they do anything?

 

Wasnt this supposed to be the largest and most successful breach ever?

 

Did Bobby G even need to organise a crusade?

[Lucerne]

Wait.

 

Did Chaos actually invade? Did they do anything?

 

Wasnt this supposed to be the largest and most successful breach ever?

 

Did Bobby G even need to organise a crusade?

Half the Imperium is still in Old Night Mk II and the traitor Legions have carved out pocket empires in realspace or are on a comeback tour.

 

Yeah, I'd say that crusade was needed- and what actually happened was insufficient.

[Gentlemanloser]

But what had that really done?

 

The dark side still has marine chapters doing thier thing.

 

Bobby G can also pop up anywhere needed and save the day.

 

What did the largest incursion of chaos actually do?

 

Apart from weaken Draigos prison and allow him easier access to the real world.

[Bryan Blaire]

But what had that really done?

 

What did the largest incursion of chaos actually do?

Adjusted the setting to a darker place regarding Chaos access to the Imperium and damaged the functioning of it as a "whole", with a few bright spots of light (like it always had), and gave some more access narratively to all the remaining armies in the game that may not have had as much narrative reason for being "anywhere".

 

Oddly enough, being dismissive of the current setting's narrative because it doesn't suit you isn't what the topic is here though, is it? Maybe you should go find some place where it is instead.

[Ascanius]

 

They only way the Imperium is going to have good rulership is if the Big E climbs off the throne, and that's not likely going to happen any time soon.

 

You got a funny idea of "good".

[the jeske]

Well, but if we look at world shaping from this point of view, the change in gravitational forces within the galaxy after the scar suddenly poped up, should have blown most of the planets and made the rest ununhibited dead rocks.

[Gentlemanloser]

Isn't this the exact thread for negative arguements about the setting?

 

Or are my posts not specially about Bobby G and his impact enough?

 

How is the settinng darker? If anything this whole arc is more lighter and fantastical.

 

Bobby G saves the day! With no loss, no setbacks, no tradegy.

 

Those chaos guys. Well, I'm sure they *tried*...

 

But by our shining star nothings really worse and we've got super new tech and super new shiny marines to top it off.

[Ascanius]

 

 

EDIT: A good example of why (in universe) I'd be opposed to Guilliman's rule is the Roman Empire. After Caesar took power and effectively ended the Republic, the Empire continued to struggle on, but it was riven with assassination, coup after coup, rebellions, and for every Augustus or Trajan there was a Caligula or Nero (although really, Nero just suffers from bad publicity. He never 'fiddled' while the city burned.)

 

Except the Roman Empire was an objectively superior civilization to live in as a citizen of lower to middle class compared to the Roman Republic, especially to its end when it became bloated and corrupt. Meanwhile the Empire not only lasted longer, didn't suffer from as gross abuse of property laws, and assassination of the Emperor was often legal means of getting rid of somebody that was really, really bad. Hell if you were a Constantinoplian you could just toss the Emperor out.

 

And just like either the Republic or the Empire, the Imperium only functions because the work is done by masses of slaves.

[Bryan Blaire]

Isn't this the exact thread for negative arguements about the setting?

Um, no, it's hard to imagine that this needs to be spelled out, but the topic is "Arguments against Guilliman's new order", says right on the tin, and the OP even including some indication that what was being sought was actual in-setting reasons. Yes, there have been a couple of diversions, but it hasn't shifted to "Why the setting is bad."

[The_son_of_Dorn]

My argument is this will be more of a moral pyrrhic victory as opposed to physical battle. Evidently few primarchs actually maintained rule over their home-world, let alone quadrant of the galaxy. Although the Imperium of man is still centered at Terra, Gman's realm (although a quarter of the size on a galactic scale) is more unified under his rule than the rest of the galaxy at present.

 

Realistically speaking, If the corrupt elements of the Imperium can be weakened and new individuals put into place who could support the Imperium, Gman would be the best guy to do it, Issue is, the Imperium doesn't really know what it is, or what it stands for. Ergo, Gman and the Ultima stationed empire of Ultrmar  will need to first establish what is first actually possible. Whether  or not they should then follow the possibilities of that outcome is yet to be seen.

 

Short of Fulgrim tempting the current lords of the Imperium into bed with ecstatic pleasure and corruption and then Gman turning up to behead them all, followed by an epic duel with Fulgrim, the situation has no amicable outcome.

[Gentlemanloser]

But that is the reason.

 

The chaos incursion should have been epic. But where is the tension? Where is the drama?

 

There is none. And it's down to Bobby G and his new world order.

 

Half the imperium dark? Worlds cut off under the threat of the largest invasion chaos had ever managed.

 

That should be some heck of a setting to be in.

 

Except. Nothing happened. Some marines died? Oh well. Bobby G got to *every single chapter* and bought them enough super marines to restock them fully. And the tech to carry on themselves.

 

Chapters both sides of the rift. He just popped around as needed.

 

There's no consequence. No impact.

 

The Imperium now has better troops than ever. Better equipment than could have been made for 10,000 years previous.

 

Bobby G has even rebuilt his own legion. The author of the Codex, simply ignoring it, because well he's too shiny for it to apply to him.

 

I'm not even talking about grimdark here. Just simply storytelling narrative.

 

Bobby G and his entire impact on the Imperium is too shiney. Too good. Too perfect.

 

There's no room for tension or drama.

Edited September 28, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[DogWelder]

 

Short of Fulgrim tempting the current lords of the Imperium into bed with ecstatic pleasure and corruption

 

^////^

 

This better be one of the storyboard ideas under serious consideration by GW :D

Edited September 28, 2017 by DogWelder

[A D-B]

But that is the reason.

 

The chaos incursion should have been epic. But where is the tension? Where is the drama?

 

There is none. And it's down to Bobby G and his new world order.

 

Half the imperium dark? Worlds cut off under the threat of the largest invasion chaos had ever managed.

 

That should be some heck of a setting to be in.

 

Except. Nothing happened. Some marines died? Oh well. Bobby G got to *every single chapter* and bought them enough super marines to restock them fully. And the tech to carry on themselves.

 

Chapters both sides of the rift. He just popped around as needed.

 

There's no consequence. No impact.

 

The Imperium now has better troops than ever. Better equipment than could have been made for 10,000 years previous.

 

Bobby G has even rebuilt his own legion. The author of the Codex, simply ignoring it, because well he's too shiny for it to apply to him.

 

I'm not even talking about grimdark here. Just simply storytelling narrative.

 

Bobby G and his entire impact on the Imperium is too shiney. Too good. Too perfect.

 

There's no room for tension or drama.

 

I think you make some great points. 

 

But I'm writing a novel about a Chapter in a half of the galaxy where the Imperium as they knew it no longer exists, where the Astronomican barely shines, where they've been fighting alone for a hundred years in Imperium Nihilus, and they're not sure if the creature that called itself the Emperor's reborn son was really Guilliman at all - because how could it be? They're cut off from Terra and Mars to the point they're reliably sure they're never going to see supplies from the true Imperium ever again. 

 

And that's not a situation entirely unique to this Chapter, by any means. Half of the galaxy has effectively gone dark, with warp travel being agonisingly unreliable, and that happened over a century ago.

 

I don't say this to advertise the book. I say it because although you have some really, really good points, they're not absolute. There's absolutely room for tension and drama, and the setting itself hasn't gotten lighter. You're focusing squarely on the metaplot and a few main characters, but ignoring the potential depth of the wider setting.

[Calyptra]

The thread was intended for in-setting objections to the Primarch.

 

Everything I could have said about that was said better by other people at the beginning of this, but I think the discussion of the Imperium itself is relevant.

 

The Imperium is the most monstrous fascist fever dream of an organization imaginable. They claim that what they do is justified and necessary, which is exactly what was said by the perpetrators of every real life atrocity and war crime. The question is, is the Imperium right?

 

The Imperium controls information to such an absurdist Orwellian extent that nothing they say can be trusted, and most of the lore is presented through their lens. For the most part the question of whether their means are justified is left ambiguous, though it seems like a lot of people really want the Imperium to be the noble protectors of humanity that they claim to be. Personally, I don't think you get to be a noble protector of humanity if you don't believe in human rights.

 

The Imperium says free societies are unacceptably vulnerable to getting crushed and enslaved by hostile aliens, but there's never been a relationship between the rights of citizenry and the military strength of their state. Regardless, the Imperium goes around crushing and enslaving people for their own good. They claim that interstellar travel is impossible without the Astronomicon, but the setting is stuffed full of other species who manage just fine without it.

 

Remember that the Imperium is not a meritocracy. Most of the positions of power within it are hereditary. Which is dumb.

 

So the Imperium mostly exists in order to perpetuate the Imperium, and to that end it executes anyone who says otherwise, makes knowledge a capital offense, and asserts that the Imperium and humanity are one and the same thing.

 

Guilliman is a threat to the Imperium because he is part of the mythology they use to suppress and control people, but they aren't in control of him. Whether that means he is also a problem for humanity brings us back to whether or not the Imperium is right.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Personally, as readers we know he's a dam good shot at the Imperium's redemption. He is basically maximus deciumus veridius at the head of his army going to take down Russian Nazi regime (to anything none human I mean) Rome.

 

It's going to get bloody. What I fail to see though is what good is Saving the Empire if there is no Emperor capable of leading it? (Light of the astronomican provider etc)

[Gentlemanloser]

Actually the OP also includes 'objective fan standpoint' and not just in universe reasons.

 

A D-B, amazing! The setting needs more of this. The potiential is there for some truely great storeytelling, but seems to have currently been glossed over.

 

Show that Bobby G can't have got to every chapter, he's not the magic bullet he's currently being marketed as.

 

I was surprised as a customer that the end of the gathering storm and the launch of a new great crusade, instead of being the backdrop of 8th edition was simply hand waived away as 'oh yup. That was 100 years ago. Buisness as usual'.

 

Seemed like a terribly missed opportunity for an amazing setting for games to take place in.

 

(Plus, with the scale of the chaos invasion, they really need a 'win'. Or they fall in fear of becoming non entities as arch enemies...)

[DogWelder]

Actually the OP also includes 'objective fan standpoint' and not just in universe reasons.

 

A D-B, amazing! The setting needs more of this. The potiential is there for some truely great storeytelling, but seems to have currently been glossed over.

 

Show that Bobby G can't have got to every chapter, he's not the magic bullet he's currently being marketed as.

 

I was surprised as a customer that the end of the gathering storm and the launch of a new great crusade, instead of being the backdrop of 8th edition was simply hand waived away as 'oh yup. That was 100 years ago. Buisness as usual'.

 

Seemed like a terribly missed opportunity for an amazing setting for games to take place in.

 

(Plus, with the scale of the chaos invasion, they really need a 'win'. Or they fall in fear of becoming non entities as arch enemies...)

 

Isn't the 13th Black Crusade a win? Cadia is destroyed and half the galaxy is cut off, not to mention the thousands of Imperial worlds that probably became demon/chaos worlds within the warp rift itself.

 

Also, it never stated that travel between the two sides of the Imperium was completely impossible. The map clearly shows at least two corridors for passage. The Primaris Marines were extremely high priority and probably caused the Imperium a lot of effort and loss to get through to the other side.

[Vesper]

 

Actually the OP also includes 'objective fan standpoint' and not just in universe reasons.

 

A D-B, amazing! The setting needs more of this. The potiential is there for some truely great storeytelling, but seems to have currently been glossed over.

 

Show that Bobby G can't have got to every chapter, he's not the magic bullet he's currently being marketed as.

 

I was surprised as a customer that the end of the gathering storm and the launch of a new great crusade, instead of being the backdrop of 8th edition was simply hand waived away as 'oh yup. That was 100 years ago. Buisness as usual'.

 

Seemed like a terribly missed opportunity for an amazing setting for games to take place in.

 

(Plus, with the scale of the chaos invasion, they really need a 'win'. Or they fall in fear of becoming non entities as arch enemies...)

 

Isn't the 13th Black Crusade a win? Cadia is destroyed and half the galaxy is cut off, not to mention the thousands of Imperial worlds that probably became demon/chaos worlds within the warp rift itself.

 

 

Great question. I'd like an answer to that too.

The Crimson Path is supposed to "carry" the traitors to Terra, the final objective of the 13th Black Crusade. And GW still haven't told us about Abaddon's and the Black Legion's whereabouts.