Arguments against Guilliman's new order

[Sete]

Get that metaplot outta here!

 

Unfortunately for now, all we have access is the metaplot, and those god awfull firebats. Agressors?

 

While I think the fans are aware that half the galaxy has gone dark, we have only been presented with Guillimans achievements, saving Baal, saving Ultramar,saving mittens from that tree, we don't really know what chaos is doing all this time.

 

Abbadon 13th crusade crushed Cadia, the fortress world, other worlds in the sistem were still figthing.

 

Had Abbadon been there for 100 years? Did the crusade just splinter, each warlord doing their thing? Too much G-Man and too little of the horror and terror that should have followed in the wake of a galaxy wide event.

 

The devil is on the details, and who here does not want to know if Helbrecth rolled his eyes when he saw Guilliman aboard the Eternal Crusader?

Edited September 28, 2017 by Sete

[Scribe]

Yeah weird thread. Its tough to make any reasoned arguments when the Studio fluff caters to only one side of the debate.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

 

 

They only way the Imperium is going to have good rulership is if the Big E climbs off the throne, and that's not likely going to happen any time soon.

 

You got a funny idea of "good".

 

 

He was better than the High Lords, and Guilliman for all his super-human faculties doesn't have the towering abilities of the Emperor.

[Sete]

And even the Emperor was fallible.

[Gentlemanloser]

A D-B, sure Cadia has been destroyed.

 

But what's the consequence? What's the impact?

 

The Cadian regiment still exists. They just relocated.

 

The planet has gone, but it doesn't seem like Chaos has done anything with it.

 

They're roaming around like a boys road trip?

 

Magnus has brought his planet back into the material, and done that regardless of the state of Cadia.

[A D-B]

A D-B, sure Cadia has been destroyed.

 

But what's the consequence? What's the impact?

 

The Cadian regiment still exists. They just relocated.

 

The planet has gone, but it doesn't seem like Chaos has done anything with it.

 

They're roaming around like a boys road trip?

 

Magnus has brought his planet back into the material, and done that regardless of the state of Cadia.

 

I don't disagree with you, GL. But what  you're describing is the Studio's metaplot. Not the setting - or even a universal storyline. I can't speak for the metaplot, and it has nothing to do with me. It can also have as much or as little do with you as you like. How the Studio presents that stuff, in the context of the major characters (read: models releases) is their call.

 

I can say how I'm presenting the setting, and how I view it, as stated in my last post. The metaplot is largely irrelevant to me. 

 

Like I said, I think you're making very good points, but they're not things that matter in my head when I think of the setting, and they matter even less in my gaming group, on our gaming tables. They're a very narrow criteria of how the Studio presents the metaplot, and I've never much been interested in special characters or most specific published events, unless they're of the quality of, say, the two Badab War books.

[Gentlemanloser]

Opps! That should have been in response to DogWelder. Sorry!

 

I'd disagree that meta plot doesn't impact or influence the setting though (although not how it relates to you or a players game/narrative of course). The metaplot drives the direction of the setting, and as said above is really the only information we're currently being given.

 

And it's overwhelmingly Bobby is so great at everything and well there was a reason for a crusade. But that's all over and history now.

 

The Dark Angels are stuck in the Dark Imperium aren't they, but I wholly expect thier codex to be chock full of how well they're doing. How many new Primaris they've got and how much they've pushed back Chaos while simultaniously rounding up more fallen than ever.

 

They might have lost a planet or two, but gone are the times of 'Deathwing' when the loss of your homeworld is the most disastrous thing that could possibly happen.

 

We'll just move the rock, fire up Cawls tech and pop out a bunch of super marines, with new super bolters and plasma guns.

 

I'm really excited about your novel though. :)

[Volt]

Opps! That should have been in response to DogWelder. Sorry!

 

I'd disagree that meta plot doesn't impact or influence the setting though (although not how it relates to you or a players game/narrative of course). The metaplot drives the direction of the setting, and as said above is really the only information we're currently being given.

 

And it's overwhelmingly Bobby is so great at everything and well there was a reason for a crusade. But that's all over and history now.

 

The Dark Angels are stuck in the Dark Imperium aren't they, but I wholly expect thier codex to be chock full of how well they're doing. How many new Primaris they've got and how much they've pushed back Chaos while simultaniously rounding up more fallen than ever.

 

They might have lost a planet or two, but gone are the times of 'Deathwing' when the loss of your homeworld is the most disastrous thing that could possibly happen.

 

We'll just move the rock, fire up Cawls tech and pop out a bunch of super marines, with new super bolters and plasma guns.

 

I'm really excited about your novel though.

Since when are the Dark Angels in the Dark Imperium?

 

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/8/85/GalaxyMapNew.jpg

 

Also seeing as how Guilliman rode (flew) to the defense of Baal, it seems that the great rift has already been severely breached. Maybe the Imperium finally figured out that space is three dimensional.

Edited September 28, 2017 by Volt

[RandomMarine]

There are two known permanent passages across the rift the one gman used and the one near medusa that the IH failed to cross and crippled their fleet in the process and gman considers crossing the rift his greatest achievement since returning. So it's not like crossing the rift is easy.

 

IMO the meta plot doesn't define the universe the fiction does for every dark Imperium their is a dead men walking. I also don't think the IP needs to be grim dark all the time as a change tone is good every now and then hence how popular the caphais cain books are.

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

 

But that is the reason.

 

The chaos incursion should have been epic. But where is the tension? Where is the drama?

 

There is none. And it's down to Bobby G and his new world order.

 

Half the imperium dark? Worlds cut off under the threat of the largest invasion chaos had ever managed.

 

That should be some heck of a setting to be in.

 

Except. Nothing happened. Some marines died? Oh well. Bobby G got to *every single chapter* and bought them enough super marines to restock them fully. And the tech to carry on themselves.

 

Chapters both sides of the rift. He just popped around as needed.

 

There's no consequence. No impact.

 

The Imperium now has better troops than ever. Better equipment than could have been made for 10,000 years previous.

 

Bobby G has even rebuilt his own legion. The author of the Codex, simply ignoring it, because well he's too shiny for it to apply to him.

 

I'm not even talking about grimdark here. Just simply storytelling narrative.

 

Bobby G and his entire impact on the Imperium is too shiney. Too good. Too perfect.

 

There's no room for tension or drama.

 

I think you make some great points. 

 

But I'm writing a novel about a Chapter in a half of the galaxy where the Imperium as they knew it no longer exists, where the Astronomican barely shines, where they've been fighting alone for a hundred years in Imperium Nihilus, and they're not sure if the creature that called itself the Emperor's reborn son was really Guilliman at all - because how could it be? They're cut off from Terra and Mars to the point they're reliably sure they're never going to see supplies from the true Imperium ever again. 

 

And that's not a situation entirely unique to this Chapter, by any means. Half of the galaxy has effectively gone dark, with warp travel being agonisingly unreliable, and that happened over a century ago.

 

I don't say this to advertise the book. I say it because although you have some really, really good points, they're not absolute. There's absolutely room for tension and drama, and the setting itself hasn't gotten lighter. You're focusing squarely on the metaplot and a few main characters, but ignoring the potential depth of the wider setting.

 

 

That line encapsulates something that's fascinated me since Guilliman's return was announced - how many Chapters actually think he's the real deal? Given Fabius' primarch-cloning shenanigans, demons' tendency to corrupt / assume the identity of authority figures and even the Inquisition's / AdMech's capacity for mischief, I'd imagine plenty of figures within the Imperium put the possibility that he's legit at the bottom of their list of feasible explanations.

 

I want to hear from the Pentarchy of Blood - I mean, they fought something called the War of the False Primarch, so is anyone getting Deja Vu? Okay, so it was seven millennia ago, but with figures like Goge Vandire in their history, sudden acceptance of an emergent saviour figure doesn't really seem on point for the Imperium.

 

Obviously, there's context - this is a galactic empire that habitually destroys vital records, has internal wars over religious cannon, and is on the brink of collapse, so the return of a demigod of legend and his legion of super-space marines fits the twisted mythology of the Imperium perfectly, but we haven't heard a single one of those dissenting voices. I get why - any chapter that comes out against Guilliman and the Primaris is one for which the new miniatures won't be sold, but it's absence from the new lore is achingly conspicuous.

[Gentlemanloser]

If not the Dangels, then the Bangels. ;)

 

If crossing the rift is supposed to be so hard and difficult, how did Bobby G get Primaris marines to every chapter, and deliver them the tech to allow them to create thier own?

 

Also wouldn't leaving said tech in the hands of lone isolated under strength chapters besieged by the arch enemy, a rediculously inept thing to do?

 

Unless of course Bobby G and the crusade stuck around every chapter until he was sure they were up and running and able to remain self sufficient.

 

In which case the arch enemy has posed little to no threat.

 

I find it difficult to accept the BG could have successfully got to every chapter. Especially in 100 years across space where warp travel is unreliable due to the failing astronomicon.

 

He can't possibly have been so successful.

[Demus Ragnok]

 

 

The Emperor doesn't care about individual people.

He cares about humanity as a whole however, it's the only thing he cares about.

This is explained in Dark Imperium.

 

As well as many other heresy novels. The casual disregard with which imperial soldiers are sent to die by the thousands during the crusade - while the emperor is around - clearly demonstrates that no individual life is of value to him.

 

Making him the lowest of low in my eyes.

Two words Kobayashi Maru.

[Marshal Rohr]

You can't really apply the fundamental meta details of oldhammer to newhammer. You have to take all those new fluff as if the old fluff didn't occur or set limitations. As much as people say it's not a reboot, it's a reboot and that's fine. The old stuff like Armageddon and Ichar and Badab is still there the same way Capt. Kirk and the Enterprise are still the focus of Star Trek. But the new stuff that has no tension just hasn't had enough time to feel lived in yet. Mass Effect Andromeda just had this same thing happen.

[Volt]

There are two known permanent passages across the rift the one gman used and the one near medusa that the IH failed to cross and crippled their fleet in the process and gman considers crossing the rift his greatest achievement since returning. So it's not like crossing the rift is easy.

 

IMO the meta plot doesn't define the universe the fiction does for every dark Imperium their is a dead men walking. I also don't think the IP needs to be grim dark all the time as a change tone is good every now and then hence how popular the caphais cain books are.

You could also just go over it. The distance between the two gates and simply going under or over it will vary depending on your location. It's another case of 40k in general looking at three dimensional movement and screeching "WITCHCRAFT". 

[DogWelder]

 

There are two known permanent passages across the rift the one gman used and the one near medusa that the IH failed to cross and crippled their fleet in the process and gman considers crossing the rift his greatest achievement since returning. So it's not like crossing the rift is easy.

 

IMO the meta plot doesn't define the universe the fiction does for every dark Imperium their is a dead men walking. I also don't think the IP needs to be grim dark all the time as a change tone is good every now and then hence how popular the caphais cain books are.

You could also just go over it. The distance between the two gates and simply going under or over it will vary depending on your location. It's another case of 40k in general looking at three dimensional movement and screeching "WITCHCRAFT". 

 

Maybe the warp rift is a three dimensional barrier as well? In order for a ship to jump it has to reach a Mandeville point. Perhaps all the Mandeville points next to the rift lead directly into the uncharted areas of the warp instead of to their destination.

[RikuEru]

 

 

 

 

There are two known permanent passages across the rift the one gman used and the one near medusa that the IH failed to cross and crippled their fleet in the process and gman considers crossing the rift his greatest achievement since returning. So it's not like crossing the rift is easy.

 

IMO the meta plot doesn't define the universe the fiction does for every dark Imperium their is a dead men walking. I also don't think the IP needs to be grim dark all the time as a change tone is good every now and then hence how popular the caphais cain books are.

You could also just go over it. The distance between the two gates and simply going under or over it will vary depending on your location. It's another case of 40k in general looking at three dimensional movement and screeching "WITCHCRAFT".

Maybe the warp rift is a three dimensional barrier as well? In order for a ship to jump it has to reach a Mandeville point. Perhaps all the Mandeville points next to the rift lead directly into the uncharted areas of the warp instead of to their destination.

Yes, it's pretty much described that way. It is -nearly- impassable. Not a large branch on the road you can just step over.

Apparently Guilliman and his forces barely reached Baal (it would've been too late, no less, if Warpstorms hadn't helped them unwillingly already) and that was his main objective for quite some time.

[Excessus]

Just because we haven't heard it yet, doesn't mean it didn't happen...

 

The setting has had decades to gather up tomes of heroic deeds and villanous actions. This new stage of the setting has only had months to bring out stories about what's going on, I wouldn't expect the "feeling" to properly gestate for a while longer. 

 

 

 

Also, remember that the primaris marines was a neccessary plot because the imperium had been ravaged so much by chaos and xenos. They needed reinforcements badly or else there would be no setting at all. G-man's return was one of the more logical ones...but he's really Alpharius in disguise so I'm happy. :P

[Lexington]

Also, remember that the primaris marines was a neccessary plot because the imperium had been ravaged so much by chaos and xenos. They needed reinforcements badly or else there would be no setting at all. G-man's return was one of the more logical ones...but he's really Alpharius in disguise so I'm happy.

Eh, I don't know about this. Ignoring the fact that "the Imperium is suddenly under assault from all sides!" is as much an arbitrary plot plot as Guilliman's return, the Primaris simply aren't much of a solution. They're slightly bigger Space Marines - not exactly the kind of thing that turns the tide. Hell, since apparently no one's figured out how to stuff them in a drop pod, they're a vastly inferior military asset compared to normal Space Marines anyway.

[Excessus]

Firstly, the imperium has been under assault from all sides since forever. Nothing sudden about it...the 13th crusade is just a bigger assault...

 

Secondly, the primaris main function is that they're able to be mass-produced in a much higher rate than standard marines, well needed reinforcements to a depleted force. Can't have the "good guys" survive one last stand after another and still be able to maintain full strength. Something *had* to happen, lorewize...

[Bryan Blaire]

Alright, if we're going to go completely off-Topic: Regarding production of the Primaris, the first new Index Astartes in White Dwarf specifies that Primaris have the exact same production timeline as a standard Marine, with implantation of the first implant occurring at the same age of 11-13, and the Primaris organs are implanted in a specific order aligned with other organ implants, and everything still completes between age 18-19.

 

So while Cawl may have made gene seed more stable through the Primaris organs so that implantation is more successful, we can't ignore that the basic process is still the same and therefore there is likely still a failure rate, therefore even if he quadrupled the effectiveness, if the previous effectiveness was 1 in 10 novitiates surviving the process, a four fold increase would still be less than 50% effective. A 60% failure rate, or even a 50% failure rate is not really "mass production".

 

Also, there has yet to be any textual evidence from GW that seems to indicate that standard Astartes actually can be "upgraded" to Primaris. The Index Astartes doesn't mention it at all, and makes a point of indicating when the new organs are implanted in the candidate without exceptions to the timing noted, so from text we have to assume that barring additional writing, they must be made during the standard process of making a Marine (meaning no "upgrading" possible, just like you can't make a Marine out of a 30 year old human).

[Major_Gilbear]

Alright, if we're going to go completely off-Topic:

 

From the first lines in the first post of this thread:

 

What are arguments that could be made, both from in universe characters and from an objective fan standpoint, that Guilliman's influence on the Imperium has been negative since his return?

 

Emphasis mine, but so far much of the conversation has been on-topic from what I can tell.

 

From an objective narrative/story-telling perspective, there have been a lot of valid points raised. For me (like others), was that after the events of Gathering Storm, it seemed odd to have 8E launch at a date set 100 years later. I suppose that it was done to help give time for the Primaris to be "bedded in" to the fluff a bit more, and to help provide a narrative grey-area in the timeline to give players some room to set their own games in if they wished.

[Mellow]

 

 

 

So i have skimmed through this thread and have yet to find this argument: he is not the Emperor. Only a primarch. A holy creation but one that has proven corruptible in the past something the Emperor has never proven to be.

Interestingly i believe The Emperor is the only character in the entire setting that is entirely incorruptible.

"Even the Golden Throne cannot keep the cells of the Emperor's dead body alive forever. Over the millennia the link between his soul and body has become increasingly tenuous. Worse of all, the Powers of Chaos have begun to infiltrate his mind, sowing seeds of doubt, dissolution and fear. It is impossible to say for how long the Emperor can survive in this condition. It is unlikely that even he really knows how much time is left to him before the tenuous hold upon his physical body is broken by weakness or finally rent apart by insanity."

 

Realm of Chaos : The Lost and the Damned - page 185

Perhaps I should amend my statement with whilst he was a walking talking being

[Bryan Blaire]

From the first lines in the first post of this thread:

 

What are arguments that could be made, both from in universe characters and from an objective fan standpoint, that Guilliman's influence on the Imperium has been negative since his return?

 

Emphasis mine, but so far much of the conversation has been on-topic from what I can tell.

Well, I guess if we're going to be public about the discussion: so we're just ignoring the second part of that sentence, where the request was SPECIFICALLY about Guilliman's influence on the Imperium?

 

Not "Has the Imperium really been changed?"

Not "Has Guilliman's influence on the greater setting been negative?"

Not "What is the Emperor's feelings on people within the Imperium?" (that I personally participated in, but shouldn't have)

Not "How did the Imperium get set up?"

Not "Has the setting been handled appropriately for 8th Edition?"

Not "Has the tone of 8th Edition changed?"

Not "Are Primaris Marines really a game changer for the Imperium?"

 

The topic of the thread, as set by the OP's request, and has not yet been "answered" and now isn't even being returned to, even by your post, Major, is "What arguments can be made for Guilliman's influence is negative since his return, both in-universe and out?" Your own quote spells that out really well. Even the connection between Guilliman and the Primaris is tenuous, because once he's not present with them, it's the Primaris's influence on the Imperium we'd be discussing, not Guilliman's. At the end of the day, the Primaris are Cawl's creation, no matter who placed the order for them at the end of the Heresy. The placing of the order and their distribution was his only influence regarding the Primaris.

 

So as I said, "If we're going to go completely off-topic..."

[Lexington]

Can't have the "good guys" survive one last stand after another and still be able to maintain full strength. Something *had* to happen, lorewize...

GW could perhaps find a way to stop writing every damned battle as a heroic last stand...

[deathspectersgt7]

What new order ? it just seems like Business as usual.