Arguments against Guilliman's new order

[Slave to Darkness]

Here's an argument any Inquisitor worth their badge of office should be making, or at least thinking.  

 

Big Bobby G's 'resurrection' is Heresy of the highest order.   A dead primarch's body was defiled and re-animated by xeno witchcraft and the thing that claims to be Cawl's blatant tech-heresy.  The newly risen puppet goes on to claim dominion over the entire Imperium, rubber stamp Cawl's blatant tech-heresy, and order it's dissemination into every space marine chapter.  At best, primaris marines are vile heresy planted in the heart of each chapter to erode their traditions and corrupt them from within..  At worst,, they're sleeper agents awaiting the signal to attack their so called brother astartes in a violent take over.  In truth, it's probably both, as well as something worse.  

 

 

There has to be a critical yarn shortage in the Imperium now from all the kittens the Inquisition would be having over this. 

This is exactly the fluff angle I am taking with my next army, a Marine chapter with close ties to the Inquisition and Ecclesiarchy that are Anti Primaris/Guilliman. Cant let this Heresy spread now can we?? :P

[Gentlemanloser]

BB, are you saying that Guillimans new Crusade, including restocking all existing chapters with Primaris and effortlessly beating back the largest chaos invasion of the material realm, ever, isnt an influence on the Imperium?

 

Or that even though its Guillimans Crusade, led by him, it's not specific enough for the topic?

 

Wouldn't the Crusade be the single largest / most impactful thing Guilliman has done since his rebirth?

Edited September 29, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Schlitzaf]

Can we just not forget Gulliman failed in his stated goal? The Imperium was cut in two. And without any real way of reconciliation. For all the might of the Primaris. They still failed. They only slowed the clock. It's still ticking and perhaps even ticking faster than before.

[DogWelder]

Can we just not forget Gulliman failed in his stated goal? The Imperium was cut in two. And without any real way of reconciliation. For all the might of the Primaris. They still failed. They only slowed the clock. It's still ticking and perhaps even ticking faster than before.

 

The point of the Indomitus Crusade was to stabilize the Imperium's front, not make the rift disappear. Though that seems to be a long-term goal of Guilliman as he has tasked Cawl with constructing copies of Necron pylons which seem to have the ability to drive back the warp.

[Bryan Blaire]

Guilliman has also not really changed much in the way of the established order of the Imperium. Sure, he's Lord Commander, but there is still a Council. Yes, he's ordered a more "truthful accounting" of the history of the Imperium and recording of events going forward, but he isn't going to get it. He's allowed Cawl's creations to be parceled out, but they're really not much of a change from the standard Space Marine (they certainly aren't "To Space Marines what Space Marines are to mortal men"). He reinforced Chapters, but we don't know what that's really let them do in the grand scheme of the Imperium (probably not anything more than they were doing before). He put a bunch of Marines in charge of the 500 Worlds - and they were invaded by Chaos, yes, they pushed Nurgle's forces back, but the 500 Worlds was still invaded at all. He's reverted Marine organizational structure back to the time of the Heresy.

 

In reality, for all the positives and negatives of his direct actions and what he's trying to do, it really hasn't amounted to much regarding real change. The overall Imperium is not truly any better off from his direct actions, and Chaos isn't on any more of a back-footing from his actions. Due to the Cytrix, which Guilliman can't do anything about, Chaos is in a much better position despite Guilliman's adjustments.

 

So overall, DogWelder, I'd say that Guilliman's "new order"/Imperial influence hasn't really been more positive or negative, it's just been. For the Imperium's order, he's yet another political actor. The Administratum is 8,000 years bigger than Guilliman. Guilliman's "new order" has probably been the largest status quo "change" for the Imperium ever.

[Gentlemanloser]

That's a great point BB. Counter point to my Chaos example.

 

There have been some massive events. Largest in 40k for a long time.

 

The return of a Primarch. The most invasive Chaos invasion ever.

 

A new Grand Crusade.

 

The destruction of Cadia

 

Yet after all this, nothings changed. The largest events in recent history. And they've made no impact. None at all.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Order 66......waiting to execute

[Gentlemanloser]

I can understand GW wanting to keep the status quo of the setting. And i'm 50/50 on the new Ordo Chronus involvement.

 

One side cheap plot to remain 40k while moving the timeline on. In the other a cool focus on a minor order and fluff that would really fit the setting.

 

But the issue with introducing 'epic' narratives, and then having them do nothing, is that it cheapens both the events and the storytelling.

[Kinstryfe]

Can we just not forget Gulliman failed in his stated goal? The Imperium was cut in two. And without any real way of reconciliation. For all the might of the Primaris. They still failed. They only slowed the clock. It's still ticking and perhaps even ticking faster than before.

Faster than before, but much likely slower than if Guilliman hadn't turned up. The Imperium has always been marching slowly toward its destruction. Guilliman just threw up a speed bump that may or may not make any long term difference :)

[Volt]

 

 

There are two known permanent passages across the rift the one gman used and the one near medusa that the IH failed to cross and crippled their fleet in the process and gman considers crossing the rift his greatest achievement since returning. So it's not like crossing the rift is easy.

 

IMO the meta plot doesn't define the universe the fiction does for every dark Imperium their is a dead men walking. I also don't think the IP needs to be grim dark all the time as a change tone is good every now and then hence how popular the caphais cain books are.

You could also just go over it. The distance between the two gates and simply going under or over it will vary depending on your location. It's another case of 40k in general looking at three dimensional movement and screeching "WITCHCRAFT". 

 

Maybe the warp rift is a three dimensional barrier as well? In order for a ship to jump it has to reach a Mandeville point. Perhaps all the Mandeville points next to the rift lead directly into the uncharted areas of the warp instead of to their destination.

 

That doesn't make sense however. The Astronomicon, as a signal, should form a three dimensional bubble from as the point of the omnidirectional blast of light in the warp. In order for the rift to extend to the point where going over/under it is not feasible, it'd have to extend well into the void to the point that it would go further than where we have seen Chaos spread before (and where life does not exist).

[Calyptra]

Yeah weird thread. Its tough to make any reasoned arguments when the Studio fluff caters to only one side of the debate.

Oh my god Guilliman is another Captain Janeway.

 

You can't really apply the fundamental meta details of oldhammer to newhammer. You have to take all those new fluff as if the old fluff didn't occur or set limitations. As much as people say it's not a reboot, it's a reboot and that's fine. The old stuff like Armageddon and Ichar and Badab is still there the same way Capt. Kirk and the Enterprise are still the focus of Star Trek. But the new stuff that has no tension just hasn't had enough time to feel lived in yet. Mass Effect Andromeda just had this same thing happen.

I don't think I understand what you're saying here, especially about having time to feel lived in.

 

Star Trek is a great example of writers upending a franchise that I love. While I get not wanting to be limited by the existing continuity and lore of the setting, I think it's lazy to overwrite it, and it's alienating and confusing for anyone who's been paying attention. With a setting as big as 40k is supposed to be, there's no reason why the same story needs to be told over and over. It's not hard: when you're writing for the setting and you want to do your own thing, just write about something else. Like the Ghoul Stars.

 

I love Star Trek, but Voyager was awful, Enterprise was awful, and the nuTrek movies were insultingly stupid and awful. Over time they have not come to feel lived-in (to me), but their existence has normalized. I still hate them, but I'm now resigned to having to live in the same world as them. I don't think that's the same as feeling lived-in, but again, I don't really understand what you meant.

 

There's new lore that you don't like, and then there's new lore that you don't like which overwrites old lore that you loved.

[Ascanius]

 

 

 

They only way the Imperium is going to have good rulership is if the Big E climbs off the throne, and that's not likely going to happen any time soon.

 

You got a funny idea of "good".

 

He was better than the High Lords

 

More effective as a ruler, I'll grant you, but that's very much a debatably valuable quality in a totalitarian dictator.

 

That doesn't make sense however. The Astronomicon, as a signal, should form a three dimensional bubble from as the point of the omnidirectional blast of light in the warp. In order for the rift to extend to the point where going over/under it is not feasible, it'd have to extend well into the void to the point that it would go further than where we have seen Chaos spread before (and where life does not exist).

 

Oh, psychic signals emitted by the Emperor and powered with the deaths of 10,000 mortals a day act like light bursts in a vacuum, now, so you can describe how they should work?

 

Maybe the Warp is only navigable at all within the rough plane of the galaxy. It's the Sea of Souls, after all - maybe you're becalmed in the Warp if you venture too far from the places where minds and souls exist.

Edited September 30, 2017 by mhacdebhandia

[Mellow]

The Astronomicon isn’t a bubble. It’s “directed” by The Emperor. Granted it’s directed in all directions but he’s hardly going to waste time projecting it “up” and “down” into the empty void.

 

I also love the fact (if I read it right) that the Necron Pylons were powered up and pretty much closed the Eye of Terror.

 

That is the power of technology 64 million years in the making.

 

Humanity will never last that long. ;)

[Mileposter]

A point of note about the Astronomicon: It aids navigation of the Warp - not travel. That's the thing about point-of-reference travel. The Astronomicon could be likened to the North Star in this regard: It tells you where you are, and helps you find the way you need to go. It does not, however, make the waves any easier to get through, nor prevents those waves from turning you around, trapping you for a few millenia, or spitting you out into a--

 

... Wait, that analogy broke down somewhere...

[Plaguecaster]

Shroud of Night which is post dark Imperium gives a very good insight on the chaos perspective with how screwed the imperium has gotten especially beyond the rift. Cadia may not of been the desired outcome to some people but it has still achieved the same desired results after all it was only a gate ( a heavily guarded one to be sure but still a gate) where as before the forces of chaos we always blocked by cadia with only a small trickle getting past now there's nothing stopping them as entire fleets can pass through into the Imperium unchallenged whilst it's the imperium fleets who are struggling floundering and cut off from the guiding light of the astronomicon. Entire worlds have suffered the same fate whilst there are a few able to resist the storm the majority have been cut off completely all alone falling prey to invaders. Pre Guilliman it was a different story when a world came under attacks aid could still be called for (though sometimes they didn't always arrive in time) with a retribution force called in to help now it's been changed completely as not only is it immensely difficult almost impossible to call for aid in the first place there is absolutely no way any help will actually come now (apart from a few special cases) Edited September 30, 2017 by Plaguecaster

[Gentlemanloser]

So now Chaos can flood the materium with fleets unstopped, what have they done with this?

[Lucerne]

So now Chaos can flood the materium with fleets unstopped, what have they done with this?

The usual- carved out pocket empires, promptly started infighting, and generally made a mess out of half the Imperium.

 

Meanwhile, Abaddon's having a fit trying to get the Legions back on track.

[deathspectersgt7]

So Business as Usual .

[Ishagu]

I wonder if Abaddon has the guts to openly challenge Guilliman...

[Gentlemanloser]

Business as usual. :)

 

Same stuff chaos has been doing while Cadia still existed and they didn't have unchallenged access.

 

Bit of a wasted opportunity is it not? Can Chaos ever make an impact if they can't get it right with unlimited access?

[deathspectersgt7]

I wonder if Abaddon has the guts to openly challenge Guilliman...

Abaddon would rip him a new one.

[Slave to Darkness]

 

I wonder if Abaddon has the guts to openly challenge Guilliman...

Abaddon would rip him a new one.

 

Indeed, Guilliman nearly got fragged by some basic marines, Abby would make him his bitch. 

[DogWelder]

 

 

I wonder if Abaddon has the guts to openly challenge Guilliman...

Abaddon would rip him a new one.

 

Indeed, Guilliman nearly got fragged by some basic marines, Abby would make him his bitch. 

 

 

Context would be appropriate. During the assassination attempt, Guilliman had no armor and was caught by surprise in his own office by 10 of the most elite Alpha Legion assassins.

 

After his resurrection, he killed Chaos Space Marines by the dozen without much effort. Remember the scene of him just batting aside a Terminator? Not to mention that he fought Mortarion to a draw and managed to defeat Magnus (with Sister of Silence help but honestly everyone needs that to beat Magnus).

[Mellow]

One would assume that as Primarchs are essentially an order higher than Astartes that he would be able to kill Abaddon after all Sigismund managed to mortally wound him and he’s just normal.

 

Am I right in thinking Abaddon has declined all attempts from the Chaos Gods to “buff” him?

 

... anyway for context I’m sure they would make a fight evenly matched which would be funny for the smurf fans and bad for the lore.

 

I believe technically killing Abaddon would be good. Chaos is meant to be in flux and having a stable singular character stinks too much of organisation to me.

[Slave to Darkness]

 

 

 

I wonder if Abaddon has the guts to openly challenge Guilliman...

Abaddon would rip him a new one.

 

Indeed, Guilliman nearly got fragged by some basic marines, Abby would make him his bitch. 

 

 

 During the assassination attempt, Guilliman had no armor and was caught by surprise in his own office by 10 of the most elite Alpha Legion assassins.

 

 

For a master tactician he should never have let that happen. Always check I.D. before letting people in. 

Hell even Dorn had the sense to keep 'friendlies' in orbit 'just in case' and hes just a dude who builds walls, not some great thinker who shoots lightning out of his arse like Guilliman. 

Edited October 1, 2017 by Slave to Darkness