Arguments against Guilliman's new order

[DogWelder]

 

 

 

 

I wonder if Abaddon has the guts to openly challenge Guilliman...

Abaddon would rip him a new one.

 

Indeed, Guilliman nearly got fragged by some basic marines, Abby would make him his bitch. 

 

 

 During the assassination attempt, Guilliman had no armor and was caught by surprise in his own office by 10 of the most elite Alpha Legion assassins.

 

 

For a master tactician he should never have let that happen. Always check I.D. before letting people in. 

Hell even Dorn had the sense to keep 'friendlies' in orbit 'just in case' and hes just a dude who builds walls, not some great thinker who shoots lightning out of his arse like Guilliman. 

 

 

Which is why that scene was so poignant. It was supposed to show him letting his guard down for once due to the exhaustion of fighting non-stop from Calth to Nuceria and then having to clear out Ultramar's inner planets during the Shadow Crusade.

 

Not to mention that the assassins were disguised as Aeonid Thiel who was a close friend of his. 

[Slave to Darkness]

 

 

 

 

 

I wonder if Abaddon has the guts to openly challenge Guilliman...

Abaddon would rip him a new one.

 

Indeed, Guilliman nearly got fragged by some basic marines, Abby would make him his bitch. 

 

 

 During the assassination attempt, Guilliman had no armor and was caught by surprise in his own office by 10 of the most elite Alpha Legion assassins.

 

 

For a master tactician he should never have let that happen. Always check I.D. before letting people in. 

Hell even Dorn had the sense to keep 'friendlies' in orbit 'just in case' and hes just a dude who builds walls, not some great thinker who shoots lightning out of his arse like Guilliman. 

 

 

Which is why that scene was so poignant. It was supposed to show him letting his guard down for once due to the exhaustion of fighting non-stop from Calth to Nuceria and then having to clear out Ultramar's inner planets during the Shadow Crusade.

 

Not to mention that the assassins were disguised as Aeonid Thiel who was a close friend of his. 

 

I think were drifting off topic here, though I do see your point. Still, he should have known better. 

 

 

Just had a thought, back before 8th dropped GW said not all factions or characters or whatnot will be fighting for the side we expect. What if Guilliman IS controlled by Eldar death magic? 

[Bryan Blaire]

Just had a thought, back before 8th dropped GW said not all factions or characters or whatnot will be fighting for the side the we expect. What if Guilliman IS controlled by Eldar death magic?

 

Did GW actually textually say that, and even then the meaning is a bit unclear. People also have gone on about GW saying that standard Astartes can be "upgraded" to Primaris, but to date we don't have any actual in-universe examples of such. What did the person that said this actually mean?

 

As far as control - it's entirely possible. Who (outside GW) knows if there were terms actually made under which the magic holding him together could be cancelled, if there is any, and whether the armor itself would be enough to let him retain life. Was the magic a permanent healing, or just a salve for a bit, or is it simply helping animate him and masking the wound. Even current writing can be changed, or we could be told we misinterpreted it.

 

If there were terms, possibly exploring how Guilliman's current actions benefit the Ynnari, and whether the same is also beneficial to the Imperium or not, might be interesting. Could be further discussion on whether there is anything negative about Guilliman's influence.

[Vesper]

I believe technically killing Abaddon would be good. Chaos is meant to be in flux and having a stable singular character stinks too much of organisation to me.

Chaos ain't that related to Abaddon. He is the traitor king, the bearer of the mark of Chaos Ascendant, a burning stain on his flesh and soul, but he ain't really fighting for the Chaos team.

 

Abaddon is all about conquering the Imperium he built with his brothers during the GC. Chaos is a tool, a mean to him, but the gods are also trying to win him for themselves, lending forces and powers to charm him. They need him, crave him for he holds the power they need to dominate in their Great Game.

 

But he won't allow himself to fall to servitude. Through pure strength of will, Abaddon made himself necessary to the Chaos gods and through pure strength of will he won't give them all they desire. So they hate him as much as they crave him. Champions from all kinds come to challenge his might, but he remains where all others fade.

 

Abaddon is at the same time the champion of all four gods and the single soul they hate the most. Except maybe for the Emperor. Guilliman is a backdrop character when it comes to this kind of focus. He doesn't mean anything. He isn't on the level of significance of the Emperor and Abaddon who are so much alike.

 

In terms of accomplishments Abaddon overshadows Guilliman by a fair bit. The Emperor never gave him a Legion, a fleet, a planet. He conquered everything, through force, wits and charisma, and all within literal hell. That's his story. He isn't a slave to a god, an emperor or a father anymore.

[Sete]

He is just a pawn now ;)

[Mellow]

Thou canst not compare our Lord to a heathen-traitor King of the damned.

[Bjorn Firewalker]

He isn't a slave to a god, an emperor or a father anymore.

He is just a pawn now

Abaddon to the Chaos Gods: "I am not your [female dog]!"

 

Slaanesh (smiling): "Not yet."

 

Tzeentch to Abaddon: "I will learn much from mutating you into a canine form, and in changing your gender- I will doubtlessly gain great pleasure in the act."

[Slave to Darkness]

[quote name="Bjorn Firewalker" post="4900574"

 

Tzeentch to Abaddon: "I will learn much from mutating you into a canine form, and in changing your gender- I will doubtlessly gain great pleasure in the act."

 

*Slaanesh's heavy breathing intensifies*

[Major_Gilbear]

++ Folks, I understand that these sorts of topics benefit from some leeway in scope of discussion, but please try to keep your posts relevant. ++

[Felix Antipodes]

There have been few in universe opposition views to Guilliman since his return, and none to his face that I recall, since his return. This will probably change as more authors (GW and BL) come to grips with the updated setting.

 

On a side note I'd like to point out that approximately half the Chapters were either destroyed or remain unheard from after the creation of the great rift. That's almost a half million casualties. Dark Imperium stated there were only a couple hundred thousand Primaris available to RG at the start of the crusade. So not enough to throw at all Chapters as claimed. Primaris are not a magic wand that automatically provide a victory for the Imperium.

 

They do need to put out something showing the current status of non-Imperial factions soonish though.

[Brother Tyler]

I'm going to (largely) limit my response to the original question:

 

What are arguments that could be made, both from in universe characters and from an objective fan standpoint, that Guilliman's influence on the Imperium has been negative since his return?

The answer to this depends entirely upon one's perspective and view of the Imperium of Mankind.

 

From the perspective of someone versed in the Emperor's intent and the days of the Great Crusade, Roboute Guilliman's has been largely positive.

 

From the perspective of someone bound to the power structures of the Imperium of Mankind as it became in M41, especially anyone whose own influence within the Imperium of Mankind was reduced as a result of Roboute Guilliman's return, the Primarch's influence may be more of a mixed bag. Certainly his influence on events that have taken place has been positive, but his influence has been disruptive to the existing power structures.

 

From the perspective of the various Adeptus Astartes Chapters, Roboute Guilliman's influence has again been largely positive, though with some disruptions.

 

From the perspective of a fan (me, specifically), Roboute Guilliman's influence has been almost wholly positive. While I might have issues with the (rushed) manner in which the studio brought the Primarch back, I think that he was the logical choice for a variety of reasons. First, he was the only (living) loyalist Primarch whose whereabouts were known from an in-universe perspective. Second, he was the Primarch who was most adept at political organization (what some might call "empire building") and most likely to be able to impose reforms upon the crumbling Imperium of Mankind. Third, as sire of the largest percentage of Adeptus Astartes Chapters and primary author of the Codex Astartes, he was the most likely candidate to be a positive influence on the Adeptus Astartes (especially in terms of correcting views on the Codex Astartes).

 

Roboute Guilliman wasn't my #1 favorite Primarch (Rogal Dorn holds that position, but he's dead), but I can't really fault him as the choice as the only returning loyalist Primarch. Personally, I hope that he will be the only loyalist returned Primarch for quite some time. While I don't dislike the other loyalist Primarchs, bringing more back at this moment in the setting's time would, I think, degrade the setting (and would clearly be a cash-grab on the part of GW). For fans of the presence of other Primarchs, I'd like to see the Horus Heresy setting remain their sandbox, potentially pushing into the Scouring. Disclaimer: Roboute Guilliman is probably my #1 favorite living loyalist Primarch.

 

I'm not going to address the overall views on the adjusted setting, other than to say that it's something I can live with. I find it mildly entertaining that so many hobbyists take such issue with the changes - it should be understood that no change to the setting/plotline is going to please everyone (and the more drastic the change, the more polarized hobbyists can become). We (the hobbyists) got what we asked for - change. Some of that change may seem rushed, but change on the scope and scale that the design studio has presented takes time to develop fully. As has been pointed out, the full complexities of such a dramatic change have not yet been fully presented; so I'm looking forward to the studio giving us a more nuanced view of the overall setting over time. We're talking about a setting that has been developed for about 30 years, after all - it's going to take a while for the studio to give us a better picture of the overall changes that have taken place within our once-familiar and not-too-uncomfortable grim dark universe. Overall, I don't really see a point in complaining about the setting. It is what it is. I'd rather enjoy the hobby than nitpick.

[Gentlemanloser]

I loved the gathering storm, got me exited that the timeline, the setting was moving on and we'd have change!

 

I wanted change.

 

But we haven't got it. There no real change to the setting. It's still same old same old.

 

Which i find a little disappointing.

 

Hopefully is just as has been said that the setting is rushed, the writers haven't had enough time to bed any changes in. And there's much more to come.

 

Which will be great!

[Kingleir]

Alright, if we're going to go completely off-Topic: Regarding production of the Primaris, the first new Index Astartes in White Dwarf specifies that Primaris have the exact same production timeline as a standard Marine, with implantation of the first implant occurring at the same age of 11-13, and the Primaris organs are implanted in a specific order aligned with other organ implants, and everything still completes between age 18-19.

 

So while Cawl may have made gene seed more stable through the Primaris organs so that implantation is more successful, we can't ignore that the basic process is still the same and therefore there is likely still a failure rate, therefore even if he quadrupled the effectiveness, if the previous effectiveness was 1 in 10 novitiates surviving the process, a four fold increase would still be less than 50% effective. A 60% failure rate, or even a 50% failure rate is not really "mass production".

 

Also, there has yet to be any textual evidence from GW that seems to indicate that standard Astartes actually can be "upgraded" to Primaris. The Index Astartes doesn't mention it at all, and makes a point of indicating when the new organs are implanted in the candidate without exceptions to the timing noted, so from text we have to assume that barring additional writing, they must be made during the standard process of making a Marine (meaning no "upgrading" possible, just like you can't make a Marine out of a 30 year old human).

the acceptance of the gene seed is only a part of the evolution from human to superhuman. Normal marines fight as scouts for years, I would imagine a large part of their failure rate is death in battle. If cawl has quadrupled the acceptance rate of the gene seed AND prevented any of them from dying in battle, by cat growing them, that is a lot closer to mass production.

 

If they are held until the first seed is harvestable, there is no chance that it will be destroyed. That means that every Marine can have their replacement on the go before they step on the battlefield. That in itself is huge.

Edited October 9, 2017 by Kingleir

[Bryan Blaire]

the acceptance of the gene seed is only a part of the evolution from human to superhuman.

Transhuman Frankenstein's Monster emotionally stunted child soldiers, yes.

 

Normal marines fight as scouts for years

Got any textual evidence that a "normal Marine", aside from one assigned to a command role? What I've read of the Marines through the years is that after the Black Carapace is installed at the end of the time they are a scout, they advance into a reserve or possibly even battle company and take up arms as a full Marine. No use wasting a full Marine with all organs as a Scout when they are capable of and needed in power armor.

 

If cawl has quadrupled the acceptance rate of the gene seed

That's a big IF, because there's no real statement of how much of an acceptance improvement he made. I literally made the quadruple thing up from my hind quarters.

 

by cat growing them

I'm going to assume you mean "vat growing", because cat growing makes no sense. I don't know why people keep beinging up this "vat growing" concept simply because there was a misunderstanding about a preview video. Those were stasis pods, not growing vats. These aren't Bene Tleilax ghola or Star Wars Clone Troopers. If someone has textual evidence that the Primaris are actually "vat grown" to full Marine-hood, please post it, otherwise cease stating something that hasn't actually been presented for the setting.

 

If they are held until the first seed is harvestable, there is no chance that it will be destroyed. That means that every Marine can have their replacement on the go before they step on the battlefield. That in itself is huge.

It might be, IF that were what is going on. It doesn't seem to be the case though.

[totgeboren]

 

That doesn't make sense however. The Astronomicon, as a signal, should form a three dimensional bubble from as the point of the omnidirectional blast of light in the warp. In order for the rift to extend to the point where going over/under it is not feasible, it'd have to extend well into the void to the point that it would go further than where we have seen Chaos spread before (and where life does not exist).

 

 

Since sentient life/emotions causes turmoil in the warp, it would make sense that you only get currents and flows close to where sentient life resides. That means (fast) warp travel would only be possible in basically a big disk, shaped like the galaxy. So the rift could split the disk in two, and trying to go over or under would be like sailing across a really calm sea.

Having the Astronomicon as a beacon for navigation would also work rather well. The navigator knows how bright it is and where it is at the start of the journey, and he know how bright it should be and where it should be at the end of the trip. Since they generally travel along know warp currents, that should probably be enough information for the navigator to manage the trip. Most of the time at least.   

 

Dunno, there are a lot of things I dislike about the new Guilliman background material, but the rift and him managing to navigate it is something I'm totally fine with. That he risked it just to deliver his Primaris dudes and then return makes no sense at all however.

 

But we have always had local warp storm in 40k, where travel is simply too dangerous as the warp is too violent for the navigators to handle. If the storm blocks a known warp route, that sucks for a lot of systems. If it just blocks a local system, it only sucks for them.

Edited October 16, 2017 by totgeboren