Where to go next?

[Damo1701]

Well, now that the summer painting events have finished, I find myself pondering what to do with my Raven Guard now.  I have lists of what I have, and the state they are in around the RG forum somewhere, I might look for them soon and start updating where needed.

 

The biggest hole in my collection, currently, is that of Lieutenant models.  For now, I've been using captain and chaplain models as stand-ins to cover my bases.

 

To begin with, I have ordered a Legion Moritat with Jump Pack and twin Plasma Pistols.  Thinking I can either run him with the dual Plasma, or, with a bit of converting, give him a melee weapon.  However, as my Vanguard are usually the stars of the show currently, an assaulting Lieutenant setup isn't really a viable use of points.  However, as a protection unit for things getting close to my heavy weapons, or a rapid reaction unit, alongside an assault squad, he might become more useful.

 

So, I'm not sure where to go next.  More Forge World units to add to the theme, such as predators, I can't help thinking that three of those would be a great thing to aim for.  A Whirlwind Scorpius or two?  Maybe add to my Sicarian collection with a Venator and a standard?  Perhaps look at gaining some of the marine Lords of War units?

 

Suggestions, ideas, and input are welcome.

Edited September 26, 2017 by Damo1701

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

I think every Raven Guard player should probably have a unit of 6 Aggressors with this new book (or at least 3), but since your army follows a specific theme not sure if you are down for that.

 

Otherwise what you mentioned is a good gameplan. There are a lot of single-model elites/hqs now with buffs worth considering, and I guess most of us probably dont have those models made up.

[Race Bannon]

TANKS! 

 

I mean, maybe a tank or two would fill a gap for sure.  If anything, they present an option that may not fit the Raven Guard schema per se, yet gives you the option for posterity.

 

LoW, to me, are units either intentionally planned for persistent use or put at the end of the painting line.  I say that even though I planned for one in the HHotE event, but that was for a badge ... and BADGES MATTER ON THE INTERNET!  Will I actually use a Terminus?  Not really, but now I (will) have one for if/when I want.

 

And that's the point of my recommendation: have the unit ready at your whim.

 

:tu:

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

TANKS! 

 

I mean, maybe a tank or two would fill a gap for sure.  If anything, they present an option that may not fit the Raven Guard schema per se, yet gives you the option for posterity.

 

LoW, to me, are units either intentionally planned for persistent use or put at the end of the painting line.  I say that even though I planned for one in the HHotE event, but that was for a badge ... and BADGES MATTER ON THE INTERNET!  Will I actually use a Terminus?  Not really, but now I (will) have one for if/when I want.

 

And that's the point of my recommendation: have the unit ready at your whim.

 

 

I am starting to get the vibe you are actually a confused Iron Hand that likes birds so he put a "pretty raven" on his should pad.

[Bjorn Firewalker]

The Raven Guard is a Chapter of Space Marines, NOT of "Space Flower Children, Spreading Messages of Peace and Love". Like it or not, they have to take and hold ground from enemy forces- many of which have tanks. If the Raven Guard decide it needs its own tanks to destroy those of the enemy, so be it.

[Claws and Effect]

Nay, Brother-Captain Bannon is not an Iron Hand.

 

He is a representative of the Black Guards Chapter.

[duz_]

TANKS!

 

I mean, maybe a tank or two would fill a gap for sure. If anything, they present an option that may not fit the Raven Guard schema per se, yet gives you the option for posterity.

 

LoW, to me, are units either intentionally planned for persistent use or put at the end of the painting line. I say that even though I planned for one in the HHotE event, but that was for a badge ... and BADGES MATTER ON THE INTERNET! Will I actually use a Terminus? Not really, but now I (will) have one for if/when I want.

 

And that's the point of my recommendation: have the unit ready at your whim.

 

:tu:

 

Sometimes I wonder if RB is actually a guardsmen in disguise...

[9x19 Parabellum]

I remember dating a girl while I was in the Marine Corps who was very surprised to find out, upon one particular conversation, that the Marine Corps had it's own tanks, jet fighters and bombers.

 

"I always thought you guys were small and fast and meant to be like 'lightweight' versions of the Army..."

 

She was, understandably, like so many people do, conflating terms and confusing the meaning of things.  Whether you're talking about OMS (Operational Manuever from the Sea), limited theaters of action, RRF (rapid response force) or Violence of Action there are oft-used words like "stealth, speed, light, fast, strike" etc.

 

These adjectives don't apply, in the US Marine Corps, to the physical attributes of any one particular person, or piece of equipment. A "tank" isn't deployed with a MAGTF because the gross tonnage of our M1 Abrams is any less than the Army's M1 Abrams.  Our F18 hornets don't weigh less, or carry less ammo and/or fuel than the Navy's F18 hornets.

 

When the military uses words like those above, they are talking about removing constraints on readiness that would prevent rapid deployment, engagement, etc.  For example, the Marine Corps might maintain a smaller number of battalions of infantry or squadrons of aircraft as compared to the US Army, but they might spend more of their budget on making sure those battalions/squadrons are always operating at a higher state of readiness.  The lighter 'command' structure, less bureaucracy, less logistics (getting beans, bullets, band aids and bad guys in the right place..yes, the 4 b's...that's actually a thing) the fast a warfighting force can respond to a situation.   Another example might be that the Marine Corps feels its better to get a single infantry company on the ground, engaging and distracting/harassing the enemy, while the rest of the Regiment gets there, than it is to engage the enemy entirely at Regimental strength, but only after they've had time to 'dig in'.

 

Another example of speed and violence-of-action is in the lowest level of command structure to which tactical decision making power is granted. In WW2 , field grade officers (Majors, Lt. Colonels, etc) made the tactical decisions because enlisted guys were a) drafted and b.) generally considered very ignorant/uneducated.  This necessarily meant things took longer; reports must come in from the front to platoon and/or company commanders, which were then relayed by wire or radio to battalion commanders far 'in the rear'.  Given the speed of technology and the fog of war, this meant things could take a while before a battalion commander had enough information to make a decision, and by the time they had the information, the situation had already changed.  By Vietnam, this had changed to platoon commanders, though with devastating results as a function of Guerilla Warfare, (the Vietcong understood Violence of Action better than we did).  In modern times, however, with an all volunteer force and better emphasis on quality recruiting and ongoing training/education, those types of tactical decisions are driven down, at times into the enlisted NCO level, meaning a squad or fire team can sometimes make the call for artillery support or airstrikes.

 

THAT is what it means to strike with speed, stealth, etc....not because a predator tank can't equip a camo cloak but scouts can so I guess I have to field 2k points of scouts in order to be fluffy.  I imagine all Astartes chapters would share much in common with the "Volence of Action" concept, but Raven Guard in particular may have taken the concept to a higher level, which is why our Chapter is renowned for these attributes. But it doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't bring Land Raiders.

Edited September 27, 2017 by 9x19 Parabellum

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Yeah but Marine Corps has MARINE in the name... that means only water stuff and no tanks/planes.  

[Claws and Effect]

9mm makes a good point, but I'd like to amend it a bit.

 

The Raven Guard has all the same toys as any other Chapter, but they prefer to fight in a way that makes them unnecessary.

 

They can field a column of Land Raiders that would bring an oily tear to any Iron Hand's bionic eye, but if the conflict reaches a point where they need to they've already failed by their standards.

[Bjorn Firewalker]

The US Marine Corps may be leaner, meaner, and faster than the US Army, but that's because they're doing without the logistics units that sustain a combat unit for extended campaigns- maintenance and repairs; medical service; food service; and the transports bringing in all the ammo, fuel, food, water, clothes, bandages, medicine, and spare parts needed to ensure those services are AVAILABLE. If the marines don't receive support from US Army or US Navy logistics units, the marines' combat abilities will "wither on the vine," and no amount of "fighting spirit" will change that.

 

Space Marines suffer a similar problem. It takes DECADES to create a combat-capable Marine, compared to weeks for an Astra Militarum conscript, months for a guardsman, or years for a Tempestus Scion. Which goes back to the problem with Raven Guard tanks: If the Marines must seize a position from an enemy tank company, is it better to attack with their own tanks? Or attack without, suffer the casualties one faces when launching such attacks (remember, the Leman Russ battle cannon has a 72" range, compared to a krak missile's 48"), and then wait for DECADES as the dead Marines' successors are trained, hoping the enemy is kind enough to give you the necessary time?

 

Best get some tanks. The Raven Guard doesn't need them? Well, better to have and not need, than to need and not have.

[Damo1701]

An awful lot of factoids have been appearing in this thread, which has started me thinking.

 

Seeing as the Raven Guard did have all the equipment available to them that the other legions did, more armour isn't a terrible idea.

 

Thinking about it, what's more stealthy than using loud and scary armoured vehicles as a massive distraction force while you have units infiltrating enemy positions unseen and unheard because of the racket the heavier units are making?

 

So, I think it might be a case of picking up what I can, when I can, including the heavier armour pieces, even though I can't use more than one at a time. Having a nice variety to choose from would be interesting.

 

Next steps on the infantry front are, perhaps, a lot more difficult. Caught between whether to expand squads to 10-man squads, or to increase the variety of options available. Hmm... lol.

[9x19 Parabellum]

9mm makes a good point, but I'd like to amend it a bit.

 

The Raven Guard has all the same toys as any other Chapter, but they prefer to fight in a way that makes them unnecessary.

 

They can field a column of Land Raiders that would bring an oily tear to any Iron Hand's bionic eye, but if the conflict reaches a point where they need to they've already failed by their standards.

 

Respectfully, I think you've got it wrong.  Raven Guard aren't stupid; they aren't going to forgo armor or long range/large caliber weapons simply because you can't hide them behind a tree.  Again, I think you are not really understanding what stealth and surprise is at the regimental level.  They are not Raven-Ninjas.   They are not covert Ops Seal Teams.

 

You are understanding terms like "Ambush" and "Surprise" at a far too intimate/personal level.

 

Military surprise is not a few guys hiding behind bushes and the enemy company walks down in single file and so the squad pops out "HAHA Surprise!" and starts shooting them.  (I mean, don't get me wrong. It can be, but that's not what we, or at least, I, am talking about.)

 

Surprise is more like...you are a regimental commander...you have your regiment in place to secure an area.  You know there is a company of Marines about 15 clicks out to the South, and you are content that yeah, no way they are going to launch an attack on you, so you order your men to stand down to get some rest, and WAIT, golly gee??? HERE COME THE LAVs and Bradleys?!?! ARE THESE GUYS NUTS?

 

If you've ever seen Generation Kill, here's a great example of what "surprise" means at the military level.  Other branches of armed services might say "ok we are a recon unit, that's an assault, no way are we going to attempt that"

[Race Bannon]

WHICH may be an interesting discussion point for another thread ^_^  Maybe I need more coffee ...

 

Damo is asking what he could do next with his collection.  Dudes are one thing, dudes in moving boxes is another thing.

 

I'm sticking to my vote: tanks.

 

And I'm a Raven Guard at heart yo

[seriade]

Going to your hidden hands page and looking at what you have posted there if you are looking for places to go next I see a few options.  If you intend to be in theme and stick to a "traditional" raven guard style so light on actual "tank" armour that is not transports.  if your looking for more support that could complement that fire raptor there is the xyphon as well as a stormhawks with lastalons both that can act in place of actual ground armor.  Or in keeping with the infantry feel you can all ways get some dreads to mix some armour in with the troops that will be hard to remove (levi,contemptor,etc).  If you want to go towards armour like tanks go for it but remember you cant just add a single tank to a list unless you really want a dead tank.

[Claws and Effect]

No, I get it.

 

I'm just going by the depictions of the Raven Guard in, well, pretty much everything.

 

Here's a scenario: There's a wall that needs taken down to allow other forces ingress to a city to quell a heretical uprising.

 

The Imperial Fists or Iron Hands would just drive a few Vindicators up and blast a hole in the wall. Done.

 

The Raven Guard could easily do the exact same thing if they wanted to. But they recognize that someone is likely going to spot those tanks with powerful, but short ranged, weapons getting into position to fire. Which means that the both the tanks and any forces sent into the city will likely be coming under fire. Furthermore, they recognize that those tanks are priceless relics and are not easily replaced. Even with their low recruitment rate, it is easier to replace a Space Marine than it is a Vindicator.

 

With all that in mind, the Raven Guard would be more likely to send a squad in with some melta bombs to bring the wall down. It achieves the same goal while putting less of their own assets at risk.

 

With that said, the Raven Guard don't hesitate to use air power, at all. I wouldn't be surprised if we learned they use Stormravens more than any other Chapter and still field Fire Raptors regularly.

 

I didn't say the Raven Guard can't or won't use tanks, just that they prefer to do things other ways when feasible. In their way of thinking: Why use 4 Vindicators to destroy a bastion from the outside when a few squads of Tactical Marines can infiltrate and blow it up from the inside?

 

And the Raven Guard's preference for guerilla tactics doesn't make the Iron Hand or Imperial Fist approach wrong or less tactically sound. Just different.

[9x19 Parabellum]

WHICH may be an interesting discussion point for another thread   Maybe I need more coffee ...

 

Damo is asking what he could do next with his collection.  Dudes are one thing, dudes in moving boxes is another thing.

 

I'm sticking to my vote: tanks.

 

And I'm a Raven Guard at heart yo

 

Right, Race, sorry.  This is/was my long winded way of supporting your basic comment and the good-natured ribbing you were getting for it.

 

TANKS!!!

 

TL;DR: I agree. Tanks!  Beautiful black tanks with white Raven icons on them everywhere.

[Jacques Corbin]

On the subject of Tanks, I am getting a Hunter/Stalker kit very soon. I will tell you why, the <FLY> keyword. Craftworlds will be dropping soon, with their jet bikes, and hover tanks. Nids are close at hand too, with their annoying winged little bugs, and flyrants. Blood Angels will drop eventually, as will Drukhari, and Harlequins. But most of all, T'au! Those filthiest, most spineless of xenos, rely upon suits, and all their vehicles, have the <FLY> keyword. One or two Stalkers will definitely affect how they play.

[9x19 Parabellum]

On the subject of Tanks, I am getting a Hunter/Stalker kit very soon. I will tell you why, the <FLY> keyword. Craftworlds will be dropping soon, with their jet bikes, and hover tanks. Nids are close at hand too, with their annoying winged little bugs, and flyrants. Blood Angels will drop eventually, as will Drukhari, and Harlequins. But most of all, T'au! Those filthiest, most spineless of xenos, rely upon suits, and all their vehicles, have the <FLY> keyword. One or two Stalkers will definitely affect how they play.

 

I have a Hunter tank (see HHotE pledge thread).  I love it.  It's 5 power (98 points with storm bolter and hkm).  It's pretty much a guaranteed Lascannon hit on anything you want, flying or not.  Yes, it's only got one shot, but I'm finding it has other uses as well:

 

1. moveable cover for other squads.

2. resilient as all get out.  Toughness 8 and one shot means your opponent never wants to waste shooting on it.

3. put it out front as closeset models to soak Smite mortal wounds.

 

And if you don't glue on the side stabilization facades, you can use it as a hunter, stalker, rhino, razorback, and, if you have the turrets, predators.  Love that kit.

[Race Bannon]

On the subject of Tanks, I am getting a Hunter/Stalker kit very soon. I will tell you why, the <FLY> keyword. Craftworlds will be dropping soon, with their jet bikes, and hover tanks. Nids are close at hand too, with their annoying winged little bugs, and flyrants. Blood Angels will drop eventually, as will Drukhari, and Harlequins. But most of all, T'au! Those filthiest, most spineless of xenos, rely upon suits, and all their vehicles, have the <FLY> keyword. One or two Stalkers will definitely affect how they play.

 

Ohh snap.  This is ...

 

We must prepare for WAR!

[Vel'Cona]

Lieutenants are a good pick.  Their buff is much more useful than it seems on paper, and they fight nearly as well as a Captain when quarters draw close.  The lack of an Invul is troubling, but the comparatively low cost does much to make up for it.

[Jacques Corbin]

Lieutenants are a good pick. Their buff is much more useful than it seems on paper, and they fight nearly as well as a Captain when quarters draw close. The lack of an Invul is troubling, but the comparatively low cost does much to make up for it.

Agreed, Lieutenant Dayan Sinise cost a whopping 16 Melta Bombs with his jump pack and MC Boltgun. I switch his Chainsword out for Teeth of Terra, and I might as well change his name to Brock Effingham Samson. He is wasted with Lightning Claw Vanguard, but I throw him and Chaplain Silas Beckford in with 2 full squads of Assault Marines. It is a lot dice with a lot of rerolls. The new conventional wisdom is that Assault Squads are garbage, but my opponent's contempt is often my ally.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

Oh my, a guy makes a joke, comes back and finds there's a straight up legit knowledge throw-down happening as a result of said joke. God I love this forum.

 

First off, before I get serious, some basic math:

 

Iron Hand = Loves Armored Killing Machines

 

Race Bannon = Loves Armored Killing Machines

 

therefore we can determine, via basic transitive property of equality:

 

Race Bannon = Iron Hand

 

Anyway, moving on. It has been said many times that the RG are a Codex-Compliant chapter, which in turn draws the simple conclusion that means their armory matches the displacement of that of a codex chapter. That being said, all throughout the fluff for the Raven Guard, we have seen hints/tidbits that indicate a way of war that while not opposed to use of said equipment, definitely favors a methodology that would prefer not to

 

How this translates to we as gamers and modellers, along with our armies?

 

When I first started playing Raven Guard, to me it manifested as 40 Assault Marines and 40 Scouts (give or take), but back in that edition, I like the way that played, it felt fluffy to me, and it was good (or at least teenage me thought it was)

 

Now, I have a more rounded understanding of the game and the background, and my perspective has evolved a bit. That being said, I still view the fluff in a way that allows me to imagine a few "rules" of how I think a Raven Guard motor pool looks.

 

Codex: Space Marines lays down a few factoids:

 

"Light Armor" is classified as Rhinos, Razorbacks, Drop Pods, and Land Speeders, and these are assigned/owned by individual Companies. Each company, depending on role and displacement has a varying amount of each of these. I like to imagine that while Pods are assigned to a company, they fall more under the purview of a fleet command situation, given the nature of their deployment (Deployed and retrieved by fleet). (Also Repulsors are classified here, which makes zero sense to me, I would think they would be treated similiar to Land Raiders, given their armament and displacement)

 

"Battle Tanks" contains Predators, Demolishers, Whirlwinds, Hunters, and Stalkers. The Ultramarines chapter contains 52 Battle Tanks, which I imagine are weighted in a way where they have a distribution in order of importance to the order I listed them in (maybe swap Demolishers and Whirlwinds)

 

Land Raiders are their own category, and they are unique in that some are assigned to the Chapter's motor pool, and some are assigned JUST to the First Company for the Veterans to use (at their discretion). 

 

Gunships, which I assume is both Storm Raven and Thunderhawk. Also of note is a handful of Storm Raven's are assigned to the first company just like Land Raiders 

 

What this means to me? I would image the total motor pool of Battle Tanks to maybe be a bit below average (35-45, maybe?), and I can see Gunships being slightly higher (Ultramarines claim 14, I wouldn't be surprised to see the RG number closer to 20). 

 

Across the Battle Tank category, I would think the RG armory would contain an above-average number of Predators and Whirlwinds, and a below average number of Demolishers, and an average to below average number of Hunters/Stalkers. Given their reluctance to want to engage an enemy over a prolonged period (and "dig in" as it were), I think that distribution of armor makes sense (in my mind)

 

I also imagine the amount of non-tank armor (Jump Packs, Centurion Warsuits, Bikes, and Attack Bikes) to be overall above-the-average when compared to most Codex chapters, because in my mind this fits with their modus operandi.

 

What's that mean to me? I will probably never own a Raven Guard Demolisher, but I acknowledge they would have them, but in my minds eye, the number they have/maintain would be "below average" when compared to other codex compliant chapters.

 

edit: I wrote this earlier today and forgot to hit submit, just did, and now can see the wealth of posts that happened from now till then. Oh well.

Edited September 27, 2017 by ltvyper

[9x19 Parabellum]

I, at least, realized you were joking. But I've also seen a lot of comments in various places across not just this forum, but also reddit, dakka, etc. where similar sentiments, joking or otherwise, have been expressed about the nature of RG warfare.

 

The dictates of the mission and situation will play the highest roll in determining what weapons you bring to bare on the enemy, and how.

 

It's unlikely that even the Iron Hands would roll out columns of Armor on, for example, a barren desert-world, with wonderful & constant air-to-ground visibility and engagement conditions, if they had not yet achieved air superiority. Doing so would allow the enemy a veritable turkey shoot on their land raiders and predators.  They wouldn't make poor command decisions just because they "like" busting down the enemy's gate with Demolisher cannons instead of melta bombs.

 

That being said, I suppose it is possible that particular chapters would be called upon, or volunteer for, missions which naturally align with their "favored" doctrines; in that regard, I just don't know enough about how various chapters get "assigned" missions/campaigns, as I'm not versed in the fluff. (Does the Imperium assign a theater to a particular chapter? Do they volunteer for it?  Are engagements based on physical proximity to a given conflict?)

Edited September 27, 2017 by 9x19 Parabellum

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

Obviously they get assigned in many ways (most of which are waay out there), but from my perspective the most common reasons are:

 

1) Assignment. The Administratum (and in turn the High Lords of Terra) send a deceree/astra telepathica request to the Chapter Master of said chapter, or to a blanket region which can include multiple chapters, and call for aid on a campaign/defense of a world.

 

2) Honor. Most chapters have a long lienage of worlds that they have either pledged in defense of, or have a long history with. This includes worlds within their sector (or fiefdom if you will). Chapters have a history of pledging support to world or noble house (similiar to the way Knights work), and that pledge can last milennia.

 

3) Crusade. A crusade will get called. A warmaster (with a lowercase "w" mind you) will be appointed. A path to glory laid out. Then said warmaster (decreed by the high lords of terra) speaks with the voice of Big E himself, and can call to arms forces that he sees fit.

 

Whats interesting about Raven Guard is they are most likely to find themselves in the thick of it due to option #2. Their way of war and personal code of conduct lean them towards avoiding #1 and #3 (when called upon directly for duty in the case of Crusade or Assignment, they always answer, and they always come, but not in the numbers the assignor typically expects/hopes for, and not playing by the rules of engagement that they were asked to follow. But (almost) always thankful at the end of it).