Are Razorbacks too good?

[Fahlnor]

In terms of pure points efficiency, Razorbacks seem to be a little better than they ought to be.

 

Compared to Long Fangs, Predators, Grey Hunters and so on, they just seem to either pump out significantly more damage per point, to provide a significantly more durable platform per point, or both.

 

Do they need a points increase/stats nerf to make other units more viable?

[Karhedron]

This is a tough question. Yes RBs are good (particularly the Assault Cannon and Lascannon versions) but since their points were recently published in the new SM codex, I doubt they will be changed.

 

Some thoughts in favour of infantry-based heavy weapons like Long Fangs do spring to mind though. They can occupy cover for improved resilience. The impression I am forming is that 8th Ed is designed to be played with more terrain than a lot of people are used to using.

 

Multi-wound weaponry tends to be wasted against infantry. RBs are vulnerable to multi-wound weapons. A couple of Lascannon hits could kill a RB with good rolling but will never kill more than 2 Long Fangs.

 

Razorbacks degrade as they take damage. Long Fangs are not in the best position here as they cannot take ablative bodies but Devastators do not start to lose effectiveness until you have burned through all the bolter dudes to start killing the heavy weapons carriers.

 

In short, I do think the RB is good, particularly when compared to "proper" tanks like the Predator but I think Long Fangs are good too and the advantage does not lie wholly one way or the other.

[Zuvassin]

Are LC/twinPG Razorbacks good? (my understanding is you can still take them by paying the points from the Index list)

[Yoyo ninja]

I like las/plas RBs. I have only played power level games of 8th so far though, so I can't attest to whether they are good for their points cost.

I like that they are really versatile, they can support from range or carry your troops into the fray and give close support.

[DanPesci]

For me i think razorbacks are now at the level they always should have been...they always felt overcosted to me before if you decided to put heavy upgrades on them.

 

Ive found them to be slightly more durable, and the change in the twin link rule has made their upgrades actually worthwhile.

 

Saying that i still think they have rivals for the heavy support slot....simply because for me, my razorbacks are almost always on the move early game....so they sacrifice BS. Their weapons are there to provide a support role, not to necessarily be the big hitters.

 

I think it very much depends on the rest of your list too. I like to play mobile and it suits grey hunters to get to mid table, so razorbacks work for me. My mate plays dark angels, and has been running a castle where he pays for the more expensive predators (roughly twice the cost for double the output..but only 1 extra wound), but due to having less models, means he can fit 2 preds and two rifleman dreads into one 6" buff easily (azreal, techmarine, primaris lieutenant, dark shroud....its not nice to shoot at or be shot by).

[jerrys]

They're pretty good.

Maybe vehicles are too good. Probably twin assault cannons are too good.

I really like, though, that you can now see some tanks while playing your scifi game.

 

Some possible mitigating factors about the razorbacks:

1) They're often moving (at least the short-range assault cannon ones), which means they are hitting on 4+ instead of 3+, and they're worse than mathhammer suggests.

2) More hulls getting in the way of stuff. You need twice as many razorbacks to have the same number of lascannons as a predator. It costs a little more. You get a lot more durability. But I've run into situations where having all of those hulls trying to drive around, they get clogged up, or get in the way of the infantry who are trying to support them, or can't get away from assault units because the other razorbacks are in the way, or maybe one can't get line of sight because the other one is in that spot that can see between the buildings, etc. So: there is some downside to having two hulls instead of one.

 

And the armies that are sweeping tournaments currently are not ones that have razorbacks in them. So, it doesn't seem like a high-priority problem.

[Wolf_Lord_Hardrada]

I've only got the one with twin HB and I tend to use it as the old mens Long Fangs taxi, that said, once its dropped them off I tend to use it for flanking and harassment, even 6 shots on HB hitting on 4+ isn't so great. That said, for its points its potential for mischief is quite high.

 

I should buy more...

[Kasper_Hawser]

After many games with them, I can say they're not too good or too bad. Even the now famous Assault Cannon razorback's power is mitigated by the Heavy Weapon status and also the fact that, in the end, it's just a one damage weapon, and hits on 4+ when it moves.

 

In addition, their cost does make you think on whether you really need them or not. I'm toying with the idea of footslogging a squad or two and save the razorback cost for something else.

 

One thing for certain, rolling twelve dice even when hitting on 4+ is fun.

[Karhedron]

Are LC/twinPG Razorbacks good? (my understanding is you can still take them by paying the points from the Index list)

 

The main problem with this loadout is that overcharging is very risky. The twin plasma gun slays the bearer on a 1 meaning that you lose the entire Razorback. It is not like the Dread version that just suffers a single mortal wound from overheating. That is why I am not in love with this variant (although its MEQ-killing potential, even on low power is respectable).

[DanPesci]

After many games with them, I can say they're not too good or too bad. Even the now famous Assault Cannon razorback's power is mitigated by the Heavy Weapon status and also the fact that, in the end, it's just a one damage weapon, and hits on 4+ when it moves.

 

In addition, their cost does make you think on whether you really need them or not. I'm toying with the idea of footslogging a squad or two and save the razorback cost for something else.

 

One thing for certain, rolling twelve dice even when hitting on 4+ is fun.

 

Ive never liked footslogging, seems too slow, and too exposed.

 

Last two games i played were against celestine and eversors...the only thing stopping  them flying up/dropping in and gubbing entire marines worth of squads turn1/2 was the fact they were still in transports.

 

However, saying that, for the price of an AC razorback, you could have another squad of grey hunters...so who knows! :D

[Kasper_Hawser]

 

After many games with them, I can say they're not too good or too bad. Even the now famous Assault Cannon razorback's power is mitigated by the Heavy Weapon status and also the fact that, in the end, it's just a one damage weapon, and hits on 4+ when it moves.

 

In addition, their cost does make you think on whether you really need them or not. I'm toying with the idea of footslogging a squad or two and save the razorback cost for something else.

 

One thing for certain, rolling twelve dice even when hitting on 4+ is fun.

 

Ive never liked footslogging, seems too slow, and too exposed.

 

Last two games i played were against celestine and eversors...the only thing stopping  them flying up/dropping in and gubbing entire marines worth of squads turn1/2 was the fact they were still in transports.

 

However, saying that, for the price of an AC razorback, you could have another squad of grey hunters...so who knows!

 

 

Just saying that its an option and a viable one now that most template weapons are gone. The most of the Primaris line depends on footslogging and so far people have managed to field them with fair amount of success despite being too fat or haughty to fit into Rhinos or Land Raiders.

[Karhedron]

Just saying that its an option and a viable one now that most template weapons are gone. The most of the Primaris line depends on footslogging and so far people have managed to field them with fair amount of success despite being too fat or haughty to fit into Rhinos or Land Raiders.

Intercessors and Hellblasters are helped by having 30"+ weapon ranges or Assault weapons to up their mobility. Reivers can deploy using Grav chutes and Intercessors can drop in from orbit. Only Aggressors really need a transport to get where they are going.

[Fahlnor]

Versus MEQ, within 12", a five-man squad of Grey Hunters with plasma pistol and plasma gun (90 pts) would on average do 16/9 wounds (roughly one and three-quarter wounds). A twin-linked assault cannon Razorback within the same range would average 12/9 wounds (4/9 of a wound less than the Grey Hunters). However, the Razorback's stationary threat range is 24" and even if it has moved it out-damages the Grey Hunters at any range beyond 12".

 

In addition, the Grey Hunters only bring five wounds vs. the Razorback's ten, at T4 vs. T7. The Razorback is also still 100% effective up until it suffers it's fifth wound, at which point it only becomes "degraded" - the Grey Hunters, by comparison, lose combat efficiency with every single wound and after the fifth wound are entirely wiped off the board.

 

I guess it's fair to say you maybe wouldn't be bringing either the Grey Hunters or the Razorback purely for their damage output, but I do wonder what better use of 100 points you could have in your army than a twin-linked assault cannon mounted on a Razorback.

[Karhedron]

I guess it's fair to say you maybe wouldn't be bringing either the Grey Hunters or the Razorback purely for their damage output, but I do wonder what better use of 100 points you could have in your army than a twin-linked assault cannon mounted on a Razorback.

RBs are good for their points, there is no denying it. There are a few areas they do not excel at:

 

1. Melee. They are not exactly the Bruce Lees of the 40K-verse.

2. Climbing stairs. Put some objectives up on top of ruins etc and RBs are sad pandas.

3. Tough targets. Against anything T7 or higher or with multiple wounds, RBs struggle to push through the damage, even with 12 shots.

4. Siezing Objectives. Once Troops get ObjSec back in Chapter approved, all non-Troop units will take a slight nerf although this hardly affects just RBs.

 

Fortunately all 4 problems can be dealt with by filling your RBs with Grey Hunters, preferably toting a mix of Plasma and Melta guns. You might want a few Lascannon RBs among the Assault Cannon ones too for long-ranged anti-tank.

[Bulwyf]

I run two RB with LAC and not assault cannons. They carry around my GH and secure objectives. The best part is that I can use the RB as decent tank killers and if the enemy is worried about them, great, that means my units of Wulfen and TWC are not getting shot at.

 

I do not think they are OP or overcost. They are exactly right. Frankly I wish CMS/DG had the option to take them.

[Yoyo ninja]

Is there not a fluff reason chaos don't get Razorbacks? Where they not created post heresy?

[Bulwyf]

It makes no sense to me, frankly. Even if RB were discovered post Heresy there are still hundreds of Renegade Chapters that had them and would have taken them with them. Not to mention any Chaos/DG lord would scavenge any wrecked or abandoned RB on a battlefield for their own use.

[Yoyo ninja]

Yea, that's fair.

Though maybe also chaos have loads of cool stuff of their own that marines don't get and it's nice to have different advantages that others don't get. Like marines can't really spam smite, but we can bring all the asscan Razorback pain ;)

[the jeske]

Yea, that's fair.

Though maybe also chaos have loads of cool stuff of their own that marines don't get and it's nice to have different advantages that others don't get. Like marines can't really spam smite, but we can bring all the asscan Razorback pain

yeah, and historicly what were those things? Because since gav dex hit, we had chaos marines as inferior SW with fewer good options, and lets not forget that while SW had their downs and ups, at all time their armies were SW, since gav dex[aka end of 4th ed, so 4 editions ago] it is a bad idea to take csm in a csm list. Chaos good stuff was helldrakes, DPs with lash, plague marines and oblits[although not in all editions as soon as grav came they stoped being viable].

 

Plus it is not like there is art with EC or other legion rhinos with hvy bolter and flamer mounts, right? Same with drop pods, now no one asked for them[because they suck], but fluffwise makes no sense to not have them as there are books after books where csm deploy using drop pods .

[Yoyo ninja]

OK, maybe advantage was the wrong word. My guess is that it's an attempt to make the armies different. Otherwise Chaos would just be marines plus extra chaos stuff.

 

The fluff essentially means nothing in game, there is so many stories of single squads of marines holding out against unending hoards of enemies and coming out the other side, or characters fighting greater daemons and winning. Ain't none of that happening in game!

[Brother Hellion]

Typically I run RBs with assault cannons and that alone helps me a lot in games. (particularly against the DG)

 

Though I would like it that GW would sell the Assault cannon bits with the model kit but you know, they want you to spend more mullah fer da toys.

 

Also I don't seem them doing a points increase anytime soon, that's like uping the price of a greyhunter to be the same as a Terminator. They are meant to be cheap and easy to kill as I've seen in multiple games from say, Quad las preds to khorne beserarker's two attack phases. To componsate, they get the big guns to become fast mobile weapons platforms that can provide a variety of roles from tank hunting to horde slaying, holding down fire lanes, covering squads as they take objectives.  

[Aothaine]

They are under-costed imho. But they kind of need to be. Space Marines need some help with all-comers lists and the RBs help a lot with that. It just becomes a problem when it is grouped up with Mr. Girlyman and other such mechanics.

 

I imagine that GW will makes changes if necessary with the book coming out in December.

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

What book is coming in december?

[Deadnaughty]

What book is coming in december?

Chapter Approved, supposedly with some balance changing. We have heard about game rules (First turn for one) but havn't heard about changes in point costs.

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

Ah hadn't heard about that. Thanks.