The new AM dex

[Goreshed]

Yesterday GW gave us a teaser of the Mordians. Wow. Talk about beefing up IG just with the basics, and fixing the conscript issue as well!

 

But the tanks, oh the glorious tanks! Firing the turret weapon twice each shooting phase and suffering no hit penalties for moving as well?! I'll take it. Makes me feel like our renegade list from FW is a kick in the nads in comparison. I really hope FW gives us some sort of better list for our renegades because this just makes me want to run a count-as list even more.

[Nemerax]

To be honest I find the Catachan one way more broken. S4 like Marines, +1 on LD and reroll ANY Heavy D3/D6/2D6 on vehicles for free? I was working on feedback for FW as well and as I was reviewing the old Demagogue Devotions, I went to Bloody-Handed Reaver. For me there was no way to make this option free for the troops, because it is so strong. GW just did it, so I will suggest it. Free Militia Upgrade for all Troops.

[Goreshed]

Haven't read that one, but either way the new AM dex will be nasty just as all the other ones that have come out are

[Khornestar]

Final nail in the coffin for the garbage renegade list. Every day is a new buff that our units will never have (Russ buff notwithstanding). Definitely playing a loyalist list with renegade models. Super excited to play my dudes as Catachans, actually.

[Plaguecaster]

People do know that any rule that directly affects unit like Russes etc which Renegades can select from the Guard dataslates won't need a FAQ as you always use the newest version of the dataslate

 

"Are the rules changing?

Yes, many units’ rules in their codexes will alter from those in the indexes. Sometimes this is to better represent the miniatures and the background, sometimes to balance the game, and sometimes to better fit with the army’s new special rules in the codex itself. In all cases, these will then supersede the rules for that datasheet in the index book."

 

So as long as the grinding advance rule is a specific unit rule for Russes and not a trait or faction rule then it will mean if you take a Russes in a Renegades dettachment it will be taken with the new points cost as well as any new rules that unit has so the only thing Renegades will be missing out on will be strategems as well as regiment or warlord traits. Hopefully FW actually give Renegades a decent FAQ once the new codex drops though it's hard to tell with DW armies which always feel rushed

Edited September 27, 2017 by Plaguecaster

[Khornestar]

People do know that any rule that directly affects unit like Russes etc which Renegades can select from the Guard dataslates won't need a FAQ as you always use the newest version of the dataslate

 

Yes, hence:

 

...a new buff that our units will never have (Russ buff notwithstanding)...

Edited September 28, 2017 by Juggernut

[Goreshed]

But it is more than just the russ or any one unit buff. It is the entirety of it that makes the difference. The quality of the codex vs the quality of that excuse of a book from FW is the difference and to some of us (myself and Juggernut included) that means more than just one unit buff or the other. Traitor Guard has been using count as lists since the EoT codex was made obsolete and we will most likely be doing so until the end of time it looks like. Am I glad FW has been making some models for the renegades? Sure. They are great. But in most cases it is too expensive specially with shipping thus FW is out of reach or just flat out not workable compared to kit smashing and just buying another codex and running count as.

 

If FW actually puts out a book that is more in line with the codexes we are seeing now then I would consider using their rules again but I am just as fine using my own imagination to create kit smashes and running things as count as. FW has become hugely popular because of the HH line and they have been giving some 40k love (specially Chaos) but they dropped the ball on this one. We have an index right now by using their rules and to my knowledge they have not announced any sort of updates for the book.

[Perigrin]

I just am running Renegades because I like Kitbashing and fluff, and i mix in a lot of CSM stuff to fill holes. Its an OK list that gives Chaos a lot of shiny new toys and options, with a few great units, but it is not a viable army unto itself yet, which is damn unfortunate.

[Azekai]

When I want to run a mono renegade list, I likely will run them with Catachan rules. I was doing that in earlier editions (after Lost and Damned became obsolete), and my traitorous colonel has long been a stand in for Straken. It will be fun to run a melee oriented guard army.

That being said, I agree with Perigrin. R&H is pretty silly as an independent army, but as a supplement to the Chaos codices, it is perfectly serviceable. It is a great way to add characterful, non-space marine options to chaos armies. If you need potent artillery for your Iron Warriors, you can do it. If you want hereteks to act as bodyguards for a warpsmith or hellwright, that is an option. The rules are lackluster and barebones, but I relish the ability to field renegade ogryn alongside my plague marines and daemon princes.

In that way, I am quite thankful that GW took the design philosophy that they did. 
 
And regardless of whatever sexy toys the loyalist guard get, I am pretty sure that R&H still has the most cost efficient unit in the whole damn game in the form of the Malefic Lord. Until we get a rework, those witches are gonna be bonkers. That one gimmicky unit alone is more than capable of making renegades (and by extension, the rest of chaos) terrifying.

[Khornestar]

Hey, fair enough. I wouldn't ever suggest someone who likes the army shouldn't do so. As for Malefic Lords, you're definitely right, but I'd have to be playing a particularly cheesy list to want to throw more than a couple of those down. IMO there's nothing wrong with the unit itself other than the number of them that can be taken.

[Azekai]

Hey, fair enough. I wouldn't ever suggest someone who likes the army shouldn't do so. As for Malefic Lords, you're definitely right, but I'd have to be playing a particularly cheesy list to want to throw more than a couple of those down. IMO there's nothing wrong with the unit itself other than the number of them that can be taken.

Yeah. Some tourneys are already implementing detachment limits, which puts a lot of the spam craziness to bed. I typically take three Malefic Lords for my supreme command detachment, and that already feels a bit dirty.

 

I wish we had access to some of those purdy Leman Russ variants... but apparently the forces of chaos hate punishers and executioners.

[Khornestar]

Yeah, just another one of those headscratchers... We had them last edition. The models exist. They're not overpowered. What the :cuss FW?

[Perigrin]

We still have the punisher and executioner, i have been using the former. When it says we can have the leman russ demolisher, we get access to the whole demolisher chassis, not just the demolisher.

[Khornestar]

Ah, my mistake! Apologies for the unneccesary salt.

[Goreshed]

Yeah, please don't take this as I think any one person should play renegades one way or the other. 40k is all about playing it how you want to play it (now more than ever) I'm just stating my own opinion.

 

That FW needs to step up their game :-p

[Karinon]

The only thing that might benefit us is that they will likely errata the AM part of the index and we might pick up some errata at the same time as we share a book.

[Azekai]

We still have the punisher and executioner, i have been using the former. When it says we can have the leman russ demolisher, we get access to the whole demolisher chassis, not just the demolisher.

I did not realize it worked that way. Wow. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

I too rescind my negative comments- and I do not think I will miss the demolisher.

Guess I gotta dust off some very spiky Leman Russ tanks that have been unjustly consigned to the shelf!

[bozo69pd]

Precisely why I don't use forgeworld. Their rules are wonky and slow to change.

[totgeboren]

I think I will use the Valhallan rules for my cult, makes perfect sense for my WB-lead uprising.

After looking through the R&H list again, I can't help but suspect that it was intended more as an appendix list for daemons or CSM. CSM to give them 'proper' cultists (instead of the GW cultists that are as good fighters as the standard IG, who are after all highly professional soldiers!), CD as a heretical cult that has summoned daemons.

 

As a stand-alone list, it's woefully boring.

[Goreshed]

You are right totgeboren, it is a index list.

 

And FW has made no promises as to redoing the books to bring them up to snuff like GW has. I'm sure as some point they will and it will be a change up. But at this point I see two ways of playing renegades.

 

1. Using the FW book we can add traitor guard to our chaos forces. Not bad at all but we just don't have the awesomeness that a codex or similar book could bring. On the flip side as has been pointed out by you it allows our renegades to either be a bolster to CSM as cannon fodder/arty support or it allows CSM to bolster the combat side of a renegade force.

 

2. Use the AM dex. When you really just want to field renegades I don't see why you wouldn't want to run this. We've played count as for years, whats a few more?

[N1SB]

I totally understand your points, yet at the same time, you guys on this forum totally sold me on the concept of an R&H army.  Proof:

 

Patient Zero: Chaos Daemons + Astra Militarum Artillery army

 

It's a WIP, but it's based on a point we actually all come together on: standalone, R&H isn't the greatest, but it's a great cross-over army for providing Chaos:

 

- IG artillery units (for, say, artillery for an Iron Warriors army)

- the only source thus far for Chaos to get Sniper Rifles

- Malefic Lords (EDIT - so cost-ineffective as to no longer be viable after Chapter Approved of Dec 2017)

 

Bottom line is, I initially planned for a Primaris army when 8th dropped.  Your posts...and this include both optimistic and pessimistic, really helped me focus and I think this is going to be way more fun than what I had planned.  I do see R&H's limitations, but I feel thanks to this age of Detachments and Faction Keywords, there's so much more to it than many other armies.  I'll likely do an AM army in about a year's time, with some Assassins and whatnot, but I think this is more fun.

Edited November 23, 2017 by Not 1 Step Backwards

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

People do know that any rule that directly affects unit like Russes etc which Renegades can select from the Guard dataslates won't need a FAQ as you always use the newest version of the dataslate

 

Does the AM Russ not have the keyword 'Imperium'?

[Plaguecaster]

 

 

People do know that any rule that directly affects unit like Russes etc which Renegades can select from the Guard dataslates won't need a FAQ as you always use the newest version of the dataslate

Does the AM Russ not have the keyword 'Imperium'?

Yes but for any of the Imperial Guard vehicles Renegades can take you just replace the Imperium Keyword with Chaos and the <regiment> keyword with Renegades

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Is that an actual rule? I don't remember seeing it and I'm pretty sure you can't just take whatever you want and replace keywords to suit.

[Khornestar]

For the Forge World index with IG units in it, the renegades section has a short list of units from the FW and GW indices that are usually Imperium and Regiment. They replace Imperium with Chaos and replace Regiment with Renegades and Heretics. 

Can't just do that for any unit (which is lame), only those from the list.