Characterhammer: How Many HQs is Too Many?

[Fahlnor]

Hey folks,

 

Looking at Blood Angels as compared to other Marine lists, it seems to me that what we can do better than anyone is to stack bonuses using multiple auras to back up a unit.

 

I wonder what combinations you find most effective or points-efficient? I keep wanting to run a unit of Sanguinary Guard and find myself thinking "well, the Sanguinor gives them an extra attack... and reroll hits if he's the Warlord... and a Sanguinary Priest gives them a +1S bonus and can heal them back to life... and a Librarian can give them a 4++ and add a further attack on them... and a Sanguinary Guard Ancient lets them reroll 1s and makes them immune to morale...."

 

Suddenly I have a five-man Sanguinary Guard squad being backed up by four further characters and I'm wondering where on earth my points have gone.

 

What are your go-to aura combinations and what units do you like to buff with which combination of characters?

[neonmole]

So I have been thinking about this a lot too, I think balancing this aspect is key to having an efficient army as BA. Take too few characters and you don't capture the value of your other units, too many and you end up with too little presence on the table.

 

Some random thoughts and my favourite characters that I find effective -

 

Captain - I have used one in a number of games, and he can be quite good if you are not using Dante. I find giving him a jump pack, meltagun and relic blade is a decent combo. Reliably does damage on the charge, and can deploy melta with precision - even against characters as he can often make them the closest target with his movement.

 

Dante - makes the captain somewhat redundant, and I would recommend him if you have the points. Particularly so if you are playing an army with a heavier shooting element. In this role he is a must have I would say. Re-rolls to hit and extremely strong counter charge make him great in this role.

 

Sanguinary Priest - I feel bang for buck he is probably the best aura. Much as above I like to run him with a jump pack & combi melta. +1S is so key for units like Death Company. Takes them from, "decent but overpriced at 20pts per model" to pretty devestating against more or less any other infantry target. Most squads struggle to survive a reasonably sized unit the charge at S5, as crucially they will wound many things on 3s rather than 4s.

 

Librarian Dread - I feel this guy is excellent, and the most efficient way to get some of our great psychic into a list, since he is both a psyker, but also fulfils all the roles a dreadbought would (bar being a mobile gun platform). Hitting on 2s is really nice, makes him very reliable.

 

Lemartes - Very strong. I have come to believe hes a must have in one of two scenarios. 1 - you are playing with more than 1 DC squad and want to play the turn 1 charge game with his re-rolls. Essentially gives you 6 charge rolls to get that 9 (assuming two squads) to engage & shut down shooting on a crucial unit. 2 - if you are running a reasonably number of DC  (which most good lists do I think) and are not taking Dante, since he makes the re-roll hits redundant.

 

 

Sorry! That ended up being a bit of an essay, but I guess  I have wanted to discuss this & compare notes myself on this subject! I didnt try the Sanguinor yet, but I feel he has solid potential too. I think his place is in a list build around him where you focus on bodies, and maximise the efficacy of his buff. Not sure what the best units to use would be in that list...

 

Cheers,

Joe 

[Brother Crimson]

While it seems we have many aura bubbles compared to other Marines, not that many are completely unique. Archangel Banner is the same buff as Chaplain, Dante is similar to other chapter masters, Saguinary Banner gives the lieutenant reroll on wounds (and morale bypass).

 

The unique ones that we have are the aura of fervor from sanguinor and the Blood Chalice/Red Grail from the priest/corbulo.

 

I tend to like Sanguinary Priest as they are not expensive and they mix very well with a Chaplain to buff melee squads. For ranged I sometimes combine  Captain and Lieutenant. In other word I keep things simple, maybe it is boring but I did not have good sucess with many HQs. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I have heard the Ancient works really well with Sanguinary Guard.

[tychobi]

I have tried and tried to make aura buffs work in melee and have come to conclusion it is not for me.  I have too many instances of failed charges leaving my character to fight alone or my unit trailing death co to high five a character who didn't join in the fun.  All in all a headache to make work. 

 

For shooting auras work a treat so stack em up! Capt, Lieutenant,  for devs, preds, anything that has a long range.  Static is good for auras.  Also your shooting buffs can reliably hit 5-7 units which would be extremely rare for a melee situation. 

 

 

All in all keeping it simple and therefore effective should show much better results than pouring points into buffing a unit into usefulness.  

 

My 2 cents on the priest is that he is very situational. Its nice when a lascannon dev gets back up but even with rerolls it fails a fair bit.  And you have to wait until someone dies. Getting his points back has not been easy for me using Cordubo in 2 tournaments.  He has been cut until the codex drops in my lists.  

[brother_b]

Good post I'm looking forward to feedback. Personally I think having to run my squads with all these different bubbles is going to be difficult. In the small games I've played with my neighbor the one buff I took from a sang priest was a nice bonus. I don't have any other experience with multi bubble units.

[Thoridon]

I've mentioned elsewhere that at the start of 8th I went for too many characters. All the shiny auras lured me in, and I found I lacked bodies. Though much of that was to experiment with their new rules I'm trying to tone it down a bit and be more selective in their deployment. I'd say the best two for us are...

 

A Captain for me is great as he's extremely flexible. You can take one with basic gear to stay cheap and lurk near ranged units as a pure buffer, you can add a melee weapon for the buff and counter-assault near ranged units, put a jump pack on to either deep strike or jump around with the buff/assault, add a combi weapon to fit with special weapon units or go for terminator armour to head up a wing of archangels. A vast range of uses and points scales to be tailored to your list, unlike the new Primaris Captain.

 

The Sanguinary Priest is another I think is great. Not so much for the revive (unless spending a turn away from combat anyway) but mostly for the +1S. If you have him follow a group of Power Axe + Chainsword DC you're getting 3 S6 AP2 attacks and 1 S5 on the charge. The same with Sanguinary Guard, except there you trade the bonus chainsword attack for extra D on the main weapon hits (or Swords, for S5 and AP3). I don't keep mine as a bare buffer though - he brings 2+ WS and 3A to the table so he has an upgraded weapon. He's already a points efficient damage platform compared to using those points on extra bodies but then the more models he's supporting the more points he earns back from the aura, depending on the target. I think he shines with both those units, especially with larger squad sizes which amplify the aura benefit - either turn a S4 weapon into S5 vs T4/5 targets or a S5 weapon into S6 vs T5/6 targets.

 

I'd say overall characters lose some impact if you're going MSU style as they have less bodies to benefit (and thus generate less 'free points' worth of effectiveness). The larger the unit they're running with the more of their own cost they earn back from the auras alone. Along with unit size I also think many of the auras really benefit from supporting units with upgraded weapons, rather than basic chainswords (especially anything providing an extra attack).

 

A big unit of SG with Sanguinor (warlord) and JP Priest alongside is going to make for a very strong group. SG with Axes and Swords really benefit from both the extra Strength and Attack. Getting rerolls to wound for 1s from either a Chaplain or Ancient would obviously be nice but I feel it's weaker than the Sanguinor's rerolling all misses and +1A and the Priest's +1S.

 

A librarian can be fantastic with the choice of either +1A or 4++ but he has to succeed the warp charge roll, avoid being denied and has a chance of getting himself killed with bad rolls. It's a less reliable source of a buff and while there will be games where it always works and he feels amazing there'll be other games where you wither fail the rolls or keep getting denied and he feels lacklustre compared to spending those points on a passive buff.

 

I'd say there's a situation where every character excels but so far I'd say a Captain for the versatility / customisation and a Priest for the 1S at relatively low cost (and already being a strong combat model himself) are at the top of my overall list.

Edited September 29, 2017 by Thoridon

[swordofmandulis]

Keeping it simple and using a captain/lieutenant to buff your shooty units clearly works great but I want my BA to play differently to regular marines. I am a fan of Sanguinary guard and you can double up your aura here by taking a sanguinary priest and making him your warlord as the heirs of azkaellon rule will allow them to re roll failed hits, and they will be getting the +1 strength, and as a bonus you can heal a wound or attempt to bring one back.

 

I also rate the Sanguinor/Sanguinary guard combo, same re rolls if you make the Sanguinor your warlord and the +1 attack bubble, the Sanguinor is also a beast in combat.

 

Agree completely that Lemartes is an auto include with any meaningful amount of death company.

 

The problem is as soon as you run 2 or 3 of the named characters you're taking up a huge amount of points. Its find a way to get the points back in game that is difficult.

[Crimson Ghost IX]

My problem with characters and BA assault is also that their bubbles don't travel easily for offensive operations. Especially with longish early random charges etc as previously stated.

 

Sure you can try and hide, close and get into action together on turn 2-4, but your face is all too commonly pretty well shot off if you go a blitzing early game.

Your enemy falls back/forward and commonly positions to get good shots on your characters too. (because you may have gone forward with an elite force it is pretty easy to do).

 

A charge to glory works once in awhile and there are ways to make this work ocassionally... with extra screen units, a raven and rhinos etc, but...

It is FAR easier and more reliable to play a slower assault / gunline with index BA in 8th right now in my opinion and character bubble mechanics are a part of the reason.

 

Anyhow Characters:

Jump pack characters in a land raider on table are better than dropping them generally in my experience.

Hiding characters in vehicles at deployment is pretty important when looking at number of drops.

If you are planning a swarm of reserved dropped characters = plan on going second and also surviving the Alpha of your opponent. Then their Beta after you drop in...

Also hope you can find a decent LZ with 9 inch no fly zones in every direction... Opponents learn pretty fast if it worked last game =)

 

Librarian powers are great because they travel well after casting. SO librarians and Mephy are extra neat i think.

 

Priest / Corbulo = Great! More so for healing characters and +1 str than bringing back models, tho Corbs is extra good at it.

I like a pair of Priests to cover for each other and still heal the line as it were. It is effective almost always in keeping chars in the fight, but not a game winner by itself right now.

 

Capt is Great = take one. I like the lightning claw on my index version right now.

Lt will be better when he can ride in a vehicle with a unit and with loadout options that matter to me. (Hoping for space marine Lts in codex like others got).

Chaplain (Astorath/Lemartes) is kinda must have with DC.

The models offering one last shot before death are neat with Devs/Vets.

Sanguinary Ancient is pretty tight. Terminator Ancient doesn't suck.

Our Librarian Dread is unique and useful and makes a fun buffer / spoiler on advancing enemies even without a Raven.

 

There are roles for many of the other characters too certainly.

I am not real happy with Dante as is. He doesn't suck, but I would rather a captain or even just Tycho the Everliving currently as Dante is too pricey for me for what he does.

Sanguinor is pretty usable and better, but should be much much better prolly (or stays the same and Sanguinius gets out of the coffin soon, "What's this Ruckus...")

Anyhow most of this has been talked around and around already here...

 

All is not cold and dark. I am not super happy with the play of BA and our characters as is really.

But we are in a better place in 8th than we have been for years as far as ability to win goes.

 

One just has to leave much of our special index junk at home and unfortunately limit ourselves things that do work well enuf for the points.

Especially important as the index gets eclipsed more and more for others.

 

I like a vehicle based force with a large forward scout screen right now. Shoot at the enemy and if they come into or through the screen for assault I have a nice counter attack force mounted and waiting after any surviving scouts in CQC... run... forward... As the game progresses I roll on objectives if that is needed. My group has not been playing progressive objectives yet.

 

I leverage this screened vehicle gunline group with Capt, Primaris Lt, sanguinary priest. Also have Mephy and Corbs with Vets in my current list.

I have *gasp* considered getting a flying Primaris tank for a Primaris Capt, Lt and some of those plasma fellas but will wait for the codex to decide.

I played thru 3rd edition back in the day, so meched up BA is fun enough for me right now.

 

Anyhow, I think characters are a must have for marines generally. I think they are kinda tough to manuever for rapid BA offensive assault, let alone planning for the the aftermath of the enemy running away early game etc... So I have been planning more defensively as a backhand blow or slower pressure force with a lot of shooting. Do to them what they did to me as I took my lumps trying things early on.

 

I actually win in 8th and have alot more fun than the last two editions combined as I keep trying.

At least we have a chance this edition even if things are sub optimal for us shock and aww shucks types. =)

 

But we really need a codex to make sense of this... mess. =) Sooner rather than later I hope as I suppose we were obviously playtested early in that process.

I wanna do Blood Angel things to people with Blood Angel gear and Blood Angel units. Things that are costed well and actually usable etc. (Looking at you inferno pistol...)

 

I am inclined to hope that the codex will be awesome. All the pieces are there... So many possibilities with the right tweaks... Put it together GW...

I am still hoping for the book around Tyranid and Devestation of Baal time as it seems a likely window. I will wait regardless.

 

Keep the Faith! The Cup is yet more than half full.

[Thoridon]

Dante I see as being a bit different from other characters. Many of the characters are cheaper and used more to buff other units. Various other chapter masters also have additional special rules to use as force multipliers. Dante is expensive and while the reroll for all misses is nice it's something that SG can get from any other BA character run as a warlord.

 

I see Dante as being an aggressive, hard hitting and fast moving unit himself primarily, and specifically a character hunter with his axe. He gives himself the rerolls and you can send a small unit with him to shield from shooting attacks and support in melee - company veterans are ideal to soak up wounds he takes. He can dish out a lot of damage on his own so sending him with something like a big SG unit would just be overkill. Instead he can be a force in his own right: jump close, melta to the face and then charge with a small bodyguard for protection.

 

It feels wrong as it really feels like Dante and SG should run together but to me (and this is my personal feeling, not necessarily the correct way) Dante and SG are best used separately. Company Vets getting the wound soaking ability makes them a better bodyguard for Dante than the SG would be, in my opinion, even though SG are supposed to be his bodyguard. Maybe the Codex will put that in, the way normal Marines get it for their Honour Guard as well as Company Vets, as that would work very nicely with their 2 wounds each.

[Fahlnor]

Dante I see as being a bit different from other characters. Many of the characters are cheaper and used more to buff other units. Various other chapter masters also have additional special rules to use as force multipliers. Dante is expensive and while the reroll for all misses is nice it's something that SG can get from any other BA character run as a warlord.

 

I see Dante as being an aggressive, hard hitting and fast moving unit himself primarily, and specifically a character hunter with his axe. He gives himself the rerolls and you can send a small unit with him to shield from shooting attacks and support in melee - company veterans are ideal to soak up wounds he takes. He can dish out a lot of damage on his own so sending him with something like a big SG unit would just be overkill. Instead he can be a force in his own right: jump close, melta to the face and then charge with a small bodyguard for protection.

 

It feels wrong as it really feels like Dante and SG should run together but to me (and this is my personal feeling, not necessarily the correct way) Dante and SG are best used separately. Company Vets getting the wound soaking ability makes them a better bodyguard for Dante than the SG would be, in my opinion, even though SG are supposed to be his bodyguard. Maybe the Codex will put that in, the way normal Marines get it for their Honour Guard as well as Company Vets, as that would work very nicely with their 2 wounds each.

 

Dante, Captains and Tycho are largely wasted on Sanguinary Guard, I would argue. The unit has a native reroll to hit from being in range of your warlord, so it's a waste of a buff to run them together. I agree that Dante is a force in and of himself and Company Veterans would seem like an ideal delivery system.

 

I wasn't aware that Sanguinary Guard were intended to be his bodyguards. I thought he always had a separate Honour Guard to keep him safe, no?

 

I'm thinking that my unit of Sanguinary Guard needs a Sanguinary Priest 100% of the time. After that, I'm torn between the Sanguinary Guard Ancient for a passive reroll wounds, or the Librarian for the more powerful 4++ and additional attack. I'm leaning more towards the Ancient, to be honest - he benefits from being near the warlord himself, grants immunity to morale and can bring a death mask to help affect enemy morale. Unless I'm totally insane, he's also slightly cheaper than the Librarian.

[Karhedron]

Back before SG were introduced, Dante did indeed have an Honour Guard of JP vets in power armour. He still works best with them IMHO as he can buff them and they can soak wounds for for him.

 

Make Sanguinor your Warlord and run him with the SG for both +1A and rerolls. At a pinch, you can use a Sanguinary Ancient instead of the Sanguinor as your Warlord as he works in a similar way but is a lot cheaper (although also a lot more fragile).

 

If you can afford a Priest, he goes well with the SG as +1S and the ability to heal wounds on expensive models is great.

 

Lemartes gives you the most bang for your buck on DC. Yes Priests etc are good here too but you are largely wasting their healing ability.

 

Librarians are good buffers for any CC units if you have HQ slots and points left. Mephiston and the Libby Dreads are probably standouts in this role. +1A is great on any of our CC units. Shield of Sanguinius is good but remember to consider the save of the unit you are casting it on and what is going to be attacking them. SoS looks nice on SG on paper but only provides a benefit if they are getting hit by AP-3 weapons or above (even then it only increases their save from 5+ to 4+).

[SanguinaryHarlequin]

If you are running a shooting line in  your army, a Captain and Lieutenant are invaluable. The amount of extra hits and wounds you'll land because of this is massive. I find it hard not to justify taking them in a list currently. ~150 points well spent in my opinion, I try and run them bare-bones as possible most of the time.

 

Lemartes is an easy include with a decent size of DC in your list. His Charge and Hit re-rolls are very useful and he is pretty good at killing things in his own right(Also getting re-rolls to hit and charge on himself).

 

I'm still a bit undecided on the Priest but I think some of this is down to early mistakes in tactics when I was still getting to grips with them game.

 

Finally, Librarians. We have some great buff spells, best use of SoS I landed was on my Dev Squad with a Cherub. The Cherub getting a 4++ save then proceeded to eat about 5 wounds from my opponents shooting round. Again though the usefulness of these are situational and shouldn't be relied on. I'd be wary of throwing out lots of psyker when your Command Points dry up because you don't want to land a Perils and be in deep water. The Libnaught isn't terrible but it is a bit overpriced at the minute in my opinion, Mephiston is definitely good. He's fairly cheap at 145 points, gets TWO denies and a 5+ FNP while being an absolute killing machine.

 

I think a 'Less is more' approach should be taken when bubbling. It's easy to get over excited and make some super killer death squad that can deal out super damage till your opponent cries at the thought of them. But with the way 'anything can kill anything' in 8th sinking so many points into a single attack of your army is very dangerous and if the squad your buff bubble is supporting dies.. then you have a large amount of points sitting in the open and not using their buffs that you brought them for. 1-2 in your assault and 1-2 in your gun line is probably about ideal depending on how many points you have to work with. The cheaper the better as well, if your buff bubble costs twice as much as the unit they are supporting you'll probably get more from bringing more of that unit or more of some other unit than bringing those extra buff providers.

[olcottr]

I put my Captain and Sang Priest on bikes. Makes them tougher to kill and gives them ability to get to where they are needed.

[Karhedron]

I put my Captain and Sang Priest on bikes. Makes them tougher to kill and gives them ability to get to where they are needed.

Pah! Bikes are for the White Scars and Dark Angels. The true sons of Sanguinius should have Jump Packs every time.

 

In practical terms though, yes. +1T and +1W > Fly.

[Jolemai]

Just be aware that their Datasheets may not be carried over from Index I...

[Charlo]

Just be aware that their Datasheets may not be carried over from Index I...

 

Yup, probably won't.

 

I suppose Jump packs are in a weird state where even though they don't have a "BA Captain with Jump Pack" model, they will probably keep the option lest they unleash the REAL BLACK RAGE.

[Spagunk]

Just be aware that their Datasheets may not be carried over from Index I...

I thought we can still use index units for missing models like SP on bike? I mean it's up to whoever you play but it should be fine, right?

[Jolemai]

Of course you can! It just means carrying two books around, that's all.

 

... Like what I will need to do to use my Plaserback, Assback, and...

[Aothaine]

Just be aware that their Datasheets may not be carried over from Index I...

 

This is exactly why I'm waiting to build my models. I have all the pieces for my four Dev squads with four heavy flamers each but I want to make sure it is going to remain legal before I build them all up.

[TheHarrower]

My go to has Mephiston and Corbulo paired with an an Assault Squad. I know Assault Squads are fairly unpopular compared to Vets, but the combo works well. Unleash Rage for the extra attacks on the Assault Marines and Corbulo with the exploding 6s and self reroll to bring back slain models or heal up Mephiston. I stick them in a Stormraven. Extremely solid unit.

 

I always use Death Company with Lemartes as well. The reroll charges and hits is huge. Also, I think people underestimate how incredibly tanky Lemartes can be. He survived 4 rounds of combat with a Swarmlord in one game. He does mad damage on the charge as well. That's the extent to what I have been using on a consistent basis.

 

What I really want to try is a Sanguinary Priest, Sanguinary Ancient, and Sanguinor with a unit of Sanguinary Guard. I know it's a ton of points, but that unit should really crack some heads.

[The Unseen]

Of course you can! It just means carrying two books around, that's all.

 

... Like what I will need to do to use my Plaserback, Assback, and...

Just print the relevant datasheets my friends.

Their available as a pdf, so just slot in the pages you need into your book.

[durdle-durdle]

If you don't care about your captain having a good melee weapon, tycho is great for a gun line or aggressive razorbacks. At 2 points over a combi melta captain, he gets better armor and a situational bonus against orks.

 

I can't wait till we get lieutenants (non primaris) so my deepstriking shooty blob of sternguard in pod + company plasma vets + captain gets that much better. I've been considering dropping the pod and sternies and taking 2 more squads of stormbolters vets, so the whole thing is really mobile after they crush their target.

[Indefragable]

To the Original Poster:

 

I think we have to look at Characters as "toys" in terms of the "boyz over toyz" maxim. It is very easy to go crazy with supporting characters for us, so we need to effectively manage who we are taking and why. For example, the Sanguinor costs pretty much the same as a 4man squad of Sanguinary Guard. When do you want a character over 4 more models? There are certainly reasons and options (like when you need to fulfill a HQ slot). So the trick--as always--is striking that balance.

 

Since we are certainly at the kids' table until we get our Codex, I think we need to prioritize force multipliers at all costs, most especially re-rolls to hit, etc... Anything else is gravy.

[Riot Earp]

I played today an Terminator Chaplain Corbulo and Mephiston. They buffed my termis allot and helped them to took out some stuff. :)